I just realised... are we L'cie? [Possible 3.2 spoilers]

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

snip a dee doo da

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What happens when the Warrior chooses to go against the crystal's wishes?

I agree that what we've seen so far is not really as demanding as XIII's focus, but at the same time, there's a lot we don't know about the responsibilities that have been laid down on us and our predecessors. Why do Warriors appear and disappear through history? What are Hydaelyn's "requirements" for choosing someone? What is our ultimate fate in the battle against darkness and how do those requirements for being chosen aid in that? I think it's fair to at least hypothesize that Hydaelyn may attempt to use your character for something they may not agree with in the future.

Crackpot time!

While I'm not sure if Hydaelyn directly tempers us, old Ifrit conversation aside, I am a bit fond of the idea that She is subtly guiding us in the direction She wishes for us to develop, like a parent teaches a child. So it's not directly removing free will, since you're still willingly following Her, but you are being led to believe that Hers is the right path.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

What happens when the Warrior chooses to go against the crystal's wishes?

I agree that what we've seen so far is not really as demanding as XIII's focus, but at the same time, there's a lot we don't know about the responsibilities that have been laid down on us and our predecessors. Why do Warriors appear and disappear through history? What are Hydaelyn's "requirements" for choosing someone? What is our ultimate and eventual fate in the battle against darkness? I think it's fair to at least hypothesize that Hydaelyn may attempt to use your character for something they may not agree with in the future.

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Calamities probably have something to do with disappearing in some cases. And if not that, during periods where people aren't especially needed (such as great warriors in times of relative peace) they generally fade away. As for the basis on which she chooses who to give blessing to, that's actually an interesting question and one I'd be curious to see answered. I suspect we won't see the "ultimate fate" question answered for a *very* long time. To me, the notion smells like a conspiracy theory created from whole cloth by those desperate to see one. As far as the world we inhabit is concerned at least, Hydaelyn has been nothing but benevolent and certainly hasn't strongarmed us into anything, at least as of this writing. Perhaps 3.2 will introduce something new but for the moment I don't even see much that's available to examine for such arguments.

As for being indoctrinated into believing Hydaelen is good...I dunno. I think that's less likely than the fact that the people she empowers you to fight are murdering your friends, nuking people, or encouraging widespread slaughter and aether-draining primal summoning at any given time (among other things).

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

more snipping

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This is how I view being chosen by Hydaelyn - and why it may be problematic to some. It is a normal thing to want to continue living, both in-game and out. You may enjoy spending time with your friends and family, you may enjoy protecting someone. You may have a lover you planned on spending your entire life with.

Then suddenly, Hydaelyn asks your character to sacrifice a part of themselves, be it their lives, their freedom, or something else, for the greater good. That's just like what she appeared to do to Minfilia, which is really why this argument is capable of existing in this place. If you love living your life, that's not something you immediately jump on. It's not exactly strongarming you, but it's not really a gentle request, either, since it's our responsibility. I do think 3.2 will give us more answers on this front, at least. Or more questions. Probably more questions.

So yes, I think it is possible for Hydaelyn to ask something of us that some players might be unwilling to give. If they said no, that's when I ask: What then? I'm actually genuinely curious. I just can't see her going "okay!" and watching the world burn, but what other options is she capable of? Would she ask another representative who fights on her behalf instead? What if there's no time, like 2.55? Too many questions, not enough answers, really.
Belated edit: I'd say that a lot of this has to do with the limits of the game's storytelling method and the glorification of self-sacrifice in fiction (and very much so in XIV, basically that entire 2.55 scene had it, and then you have Haurchefant and Ysayle). I expect that, if we are to sacrifice something, we'll all end up doing it without hesitation or complaint.

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

Honestly, this bit the fandom seems to have about "The WoL clearly has no control or agency whatsoever in their life we're basically a slave to the crystal" is frankly stupid. The crystal blesses you, sure, but you clearly have more than enough opportunity to walk away from all of this with no punishment, and you are repeatedly asked if you're sure you want to do this at numerous points in the MSQ. The WoL *chooses* to keep helping the Scions, Ishgard, and whoever else their various questing aids at any given time. A point of this was even made in the Void Ark quests where Leofard says he bets you can't resist a good adventure and you nod in affirmation. Now, if you think the WoL should have more dialogue options or more varied or nuanced writing, that's a reasonable opinion but a separate discussion.We also aren't "given a focus" at all. The only time the mothercrystal gives specific instructions is how to banish Ascians, sure...but by that point we wanted to do that anyway because we had become very involved in that situation.

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I like this point, in my headcanon, My Character has the persona of not only a righteous person who will always do the right thing, but also as someone with an endless wanderlust and an insatiable appetite for a good battle. Thus why I specifically chose to fight the primal Ifrit, not only because it was the right thing, but because it would be a chance (though only one of many) to actually kill a god. Now that The Warring Triad, The Queen of Voidsent, and Giant Primal Alexander are running lose I now have something even more powerful than Phantom Gods to kill. Being Hydaelyn's Chosen is irrelevant to him when Justice, Adventure, and powerful battles are what I came to Eorzea for (Soon as we get some more info on it, I'm planning to make an RP story about being from the Northern continent.) Being Hydaelyn's Champion just so happens to be an almost guaranteed path to those things. My WoL is basically Hydaelyn's perfect soldier. I don't need a REASON to fight the mother crystal's enemies, but it's a frequently useful excuse.

I must admit the idea of breaking free of Hydaelyn's influence appeals to me greatly. I think one of the biggest issues in regards to the WoL is that they're not from Eorzea. That alone makes their investment and loyalty to the place rather dubious in my eyes - and it does lend a lot of weight to the theory that the WoL may only think that they're in control.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'd say that a lot of this has to do with the limits of the game's storytelling method and the glorification of self-sacrifice in fiction (and very much so in XIV, basically that entire 2.55 scene had it, and then you have Haurchefant and Ysayle). I expect that, if we are to sacrifice something, we'll all end up doing it without hesitation or complaint.

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Had this argument with Cilia the last time it came around. Something something Final Summoning. But she (he?) hadn't seen this:

Final Fantasy X-2 Spoilers
Best damn scene in the game. Relevant section runs from 0:38-4:45.

You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Snip
Final Fantasy X-2 Spoilers
Best damn scene in the game. Relevant section runs from 0:38-4:45.

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I for one want to stop standing there like "what do I do? What do I do!?!"

The maid said "I need your Weapon before you see Nanamo" my answer "Uh, no. If someone trys to attack her while we're talking I can't help her with out my Spear."

Crystal Braves try to arrest me, "Nice try noobs. <PKs the Crystal Brave trators before using status cure item on Nanamo>

Telegi tries his cou "Oh shut up ready you trator" <Walks in with pissed Nanamo>

Darklander bumbrushes me. <blocks ax with Spear before pwning him like a noob>

See how the game would be different if we DID THINGS rather than stand there like an idiot then going "What just happened?" After l hell breaks loose.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

See how the game would be different if we DID THINGS rather than stand there like an idiot then going "What just happened?" After l hell breaks loose.

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I can totally sympathize with this. A lot of the problems in this game are caused by our characters willingness to do whatever he is told and have no personal initiative.

The banquet, in particular, was a disaster. I mean, the crystal braves betray Alphi, and he rolls over. I wasn't surprised. I never expect anything out of that idiot (though HW redeemed him a little). They make a move to arrest the Scions ... and the scions actually fight! Thancred goes rouge on their asses. I was pleasantly surprised and was reminded of why I liked his character (before they made him all useless after the whole Lahabrea thing). They go for the WoL and ... we make an angry expression at them. That's it.

Seriously? I've been killing GODS for you people. I fought a WAR for you people. They have NEVER offered any relevant help to those escapades, and the heads of state up and leave you in chains without so much as a word of protest. What is our response to this? We grimace our teeth at the guy. An emote. That's what we got. A damn emote. Then we get rescued and are expected to just forgive and forget while we live as a fugitive ... The only thing more irritating than these circumstances is the fact that my character is apparently too stupid to do something about them.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Had this argument with Cilia the last time it came around. Something something Final Summoning. But she (he?) hadn't seen this:

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Yeah, we... wait, what? I was never a proponent for the "noble self-sacrifice" card being played over and over. People constantly believing that sacrificing themselves is the only way to resolve conflicts gets old and suggests they have little self-worth outside that sacrifice. I never played much of X-2 but that reminded me a lot of Colette's post-World Regeneration journey attitude from Tales of Symphonia, as well as Yuri's attitude towards Estelle's belief that if she has to sacrifice herself for the world then it's okay.

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Originally Posted by Yuri Lowell

"It's okay if I have to sacrifice myself?" What the hell was that? I don't ever want to hear that again.

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Of course, this is the proper attitude a hero should adopt. No sacrifices should be necessary. Sometimes they are, but we shouldn't be complicit with anyone trying to sacrifice themselves, and our will to live should stop us from trying to do so ourselves. At the same time if others deem it necessary, it's hard to disrespect their wishes...

... I get the feeling this is gonna come up with Minfilia in 3.2. I really, really do.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

See how the game would be different if we DID THINGS rather than stand there like an idiot then going "What just happened?" After l hell breaks loose.

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That would be nice, but they'd have to program various branching story paths for it. I was a NIN during "The Parting Glass," so a little smoke bomb, some misdirection, and escape without detection would be entirely feasible. (See my comment on Deus Ex: Human Revolution; while I am replaying it I beat it 6 or so times already and got both the perfect stealth and pacifist achievements on the same run, so it would have been cake to me.) Lots of other people aren't or weren't though, so they couldn't have adjusted the story for all those factors.

We can't fight in cutscenes (even though I'm kind of annoyed Thancred thought I needed an assist - do you see this big-ass sword I'm carrying now, loverboy?!) because the Magic classes couldn't realistically defend themselves against someone like Darklander. There's also the problem of fight choreography for every class, which... would cost a lot? Probably? /shrug

that last part could be fixed with single player duties thought, a short one where you fend off or distract the guards. At the very least would make the inaction a non-issue

I don't even think being a mage is an excuse for the inaction against a physical attacker. I mean, Y'shtola did the whole shielding thing, I'm pretty sure that could just have easily been a WHM/SCH/AST player character, assuming we didn't just come out of Echo vision and weren't disoriented.

That being said, I understand the limitations of the cutscenes when it comes to battle scenes, but that doesn't mean it's not frustrating. And yes, 2.55 was basically an entire disaster. I've mentioned it before, but I felt it was a very much a representation of the Japanese mindset.

It's already within their event-scripting powers to vary a section of an event based on player Job. The Blade of Light cutscene has a different variation for every possible weapon choice, at least when you view it within the duty. It only really needs to happen once per major arc for players to feel like they were involved as more than a bystander, so it wouldn't be too much of a hit to available resources if they felt demand was great enough.

Even providing the illusion of choice is a nice touch from time to time. I, for one, was impressed with HW's "question mechanics."

In early 2.0 there were rare occasions where we were asked questions or given an opportunity to express our opinions. Even through choosing our GC I felt a little more involved. 3.0 made a return to that.

During several cutscenes there were instances in which we were directly asked what we thought. It went miles for making me feel like I was actually part of a quest and not just some loaded gun they brought along for the ride. Sadly, these instances died off in 3.1, which leads me to think that they're going to follow the same formula as 2.x. By the end we'll be a mindless, silent, oaf who is just along for the ride. That's kind of sad, because I always kind of hoped that they would take this a step further.

In other games the dev's actually monitor player responses. There's probably a better example of this, but in "Katherine," each time you cleared a level you were asked a question. If you were connected online, the game actually showed you the statistics of how many people answered a certain way, and you could see if you fit into the majority or the minority. I'm not expecting something like this in FFXIV, but I think it would be cool development tool if they monitored our player responses to the questions posed to us in the game. It seems to me like periodic questioning which asks for the WoL's opinion would be a good way to get live player feedback. It would also make us feel more "involved," not only in the story but on a player level.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

That being said, I understand the limitations of the cutscenes when it comes to battle scenes, but that doesn't mean it's not frustrating.

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What frustrates me, is that the one place they can reasonably pull it off, they rarely do. Job quests, where you have to be that Job, should allow for such cutscenes... I mean Summoner let us go Akh Morn on some Ascian butt, but to my recollection that's about it... Can do that even when I rewatch on Miner (my Miner is pretty badass, though), but they should probably either limit you to rewatching them on the right Job, or force a default set of weapons on you when you rewatch it.

I guess the real problem is races... Something like Akh Morn, or the Sword of Light, is easy to animate for all races, but having the Monk quests give you a real fist fight in cutscene? Well, we have a serious Lalafell problem there...

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Originally Posted by Februs

Even providing the illusion of choice is a nice touch from time to time. I, for one, was impressed with HW's "question mechanics."

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Having Gaius question us in Praetorium was the highlight of the story for me. It contributed nothing to the overall direction of the plot, but it was an amazing touch regardless.

While I'd have liked your standard unwinnable duty for something like 2.55 (people complain about how we shouldn't strait up murder everyone to prove our innocence, as if Yda didn't leave a mountain of bodies, and as if "We just knocked them out" isn't the easy solution), at the very least having the illusion of choice with similar dialog options would have helped the scenes immensely. If I called Teledji out as a liar, nothing drastically different would have happened, just like if I swore vengeance in that scene, or even said nothing (I mean, Raubahn as right there, poor guy).

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Snip

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Exactly. I mean, I realize that going on a murder fit in the banquet hall wouldn't have done a lot of good for our PR (though, Raubahn and the rest of the Scions did it and no one seems to care), but there were multiple ways they could have handled that scene other than having us silently making faces. Worse still, after the scene is done everyone expects you to just happily continue as if nothing happened. The heads of state left you there, just up and walked out with barely a word of protest, and we're talking to them as if nothing happened practically the next day. It showed a wondrous lack of personality.

It's not like having us be involved requires us to directly mold the plot (though, if SE really did monitor our responses we would at least be giving feedback). It just gives us the opportunity to be a part of it by expressing some personality.

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Originally Posted by Februs

In early 2.0 there were rare occasions where we were asked questions or given an opportunity to express our opinions. Even through choosing our GC I felt a little more involved.

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I recently leveled an alt and chose Twin Adders. One of the options to swear myself to the cause was to "Slaughter my enemies and drink their blood" or somesuch. I was tickled and tried that option. The officer wasn't too impressed. "Er, quite." I thought it was hilarious that they gave that as a choice and even had the officer react to it. Looking at my character like he was a lunatic.

If they give us options, I'd prefer more than just "texttexttext" and "...." like they've given us recently. It's like the game's forcing us to be a noble kind soul or a grumpy mute. Oh well, guess I should be thankful there's any choices at all.

Here's the artwork without text
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaP_wu5XEAEOShj.jpg:orig

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

Here's the artwork without text
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaP_wu5XEAEOShj.jpg:orig

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I REALLY hope this plot isn't going where I think it's going and Hydaylen goes full Goddess Etro on us.

If that happenex I'd just say screw it and take down Hydaelyn AND Zodiark and side with Emperor Various by taking over the XIVth Legion.

Huh. Chains. Hadn't looked at it that closely before. Chains DO have a certain symbolism that even other types of bindings lack.

With the low size of the image, I couldn't tell they were chains exactly, but it was pretty obvious Minfilia was bound. That alone made me... anxious. Having her clearly be bound in chains, by and to Hydaelyn, makes me very anxious. Being bound and in chains is never a good thing.

... is it?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

With the low size of the image, I couldn't tell they were chains exactly, but it was pretty obvious Minfilia was bound. That alone made me... anxious. Having her clearly be bound in chains, by and to Hydaelyn, makes me very anxious. Being bound and in chains is never a good thing.

... is it?

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I said it earlier in another thread, but the binds could be metaphorical. Either in the responsibility sense (eg, she is bound to Hydaelyn more literally than before, able to hear and spread her will as priestess, similar to how Elidibus is Zodiark's Emissary) or in a sense that she feels a lot of pressure by Hydaelyn, the responsibility being binding and uncomfortable. After all, Hydaelyn did ask her to do something for the sake of 'hope.'

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Originally Posted by Cilia

With the low size of the image, I couldn't tell they were chains exactly, but it was pretty obvious Minfilia was bound. That alone made me... anxious. Having her clearly be bound in chains, by and to Hydaelyn, makes me very anxious. Being bound and in chains is never a good thing.

... is it?

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Here's a full res version
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaP_wu5XEAEOShj.jpg:orig

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

Here's a full res version
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaP_wu5XEAEOShj.jpg:orig

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She actually looks fairly... peaceful? Certainly not your typical damsel in distress expression...

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I said it earlier in another thread, but the binds could be metaphorical. Either in the responsibility sense (eg, she is bound to Hydaelyn more literally than before, able to hear and spread her will as priestess, similar to how Elidibus is Zodiark's Emissary) or in a sense that she feels a lot of pressure by Hydaelyn, the responsibility being binding and uncomfortable. After all, Hydaelyn did ask her to do something for the sake of 'hope.'

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I'm hoping it's metaphorical for her being Elidibus' counterpart as Hydalen's "Voice" rather than the "Blessing" she gave Minfilia to be more of a "Yea I need your body for my new vessel. And the WoL is to busy protecting me from Zodiark so you'll have to do."

Add that to my theory that we were being molded to be Zodiark's Vessel (And now that that particular plan flopped Elidibus will do it himself) then we may end up having to commit full scale deicide and kill both planet crystals.

I'm leaning towards being Hydalen's emissary so she has Minfilia and us for a direct parallel to Zodiark having Elidibus and Darklander. (In this scenario, her protest in the Sil'dih Aqueducts was simply not wanting to leave us presumably on our own since she didn't know what would happen to us thus her protest and begrudged departure)

Also, the "Chains" almost look like puppet strings....... Yea, I got a feeling this will leave a bad taste in my mouth when it's over.

We our the WoL and our Blessing has been strengthen by both Hydalyn and Midgardsormer. We've become powerful. To bring balance, we now have the WoD. As the finale it will be a clash between the Light side and Dark side. And yes, I can see Minfilia being our Emissary for direct contact to Hydalyn as we're a bit too busy saving the realm.

It looks as if she's resigned to her "fate"

There's an in game picture of her floating around on Twitter atm, I'm not sure if we can link to scans though, even if it is a Japanese magazine that we have no way of legitimately purchasing lol

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

There's an in game picture of her floating around on Twitter atm, I'm not sure if we can link to scans though, even if it is a Japanese magazine that we have no way of legitimately purchasing lol

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If it's an official picture that has been released then I doubt it'd get anybody into trouble. Just mark it in a spoiler tag.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

There's an in game picture of her floating around on Twitter atm, I'm not sure if we can link to scans though, even if it is a Japanese magazine that we have no way of legitimately purchasing lol

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Try and find a reddit page that's posted them. Small loop hole since Reddit doesn't have any rules against leaks or unconfirmed info (Wait, are there actually any rules there at all?) and SE doesn't have any sway over it.

Though, to be fair, the last clause in the ToS basically means the devs can do what they want since it basically says " anything unspecified above may be enforced at a GM's discretion".

I'll just link to the Twitter account instead, she's in the picture with Krilie in it
https://twitter.com/Nova_Crystallis

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

I'll just link to the Twitter account instead, she's in the picture with Krilie in it
https://twitter.com/Nova_Crystallis

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Oh yeah she is definitely our Emissary to Hydalyn.

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Originally Posted by AdamuKun322

Oh yeah she is definitely our Emissary to Hydalyn.

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Agreed. That appearance had Paddra Nsu-Yeul all over it. She's definatly Hydaelyn's Oracle.

And I'm hoping it's just the particular images, but why does she seem so....... sad is the best way I can put it.

It's like she's given up and is just going with it at this point. Even Elidibus at least looks like he's TRYING to act in free will.

Though if she's in an Oracle trance she's not fully conscious so that could explain it.

The fact that Minfilia looks like she doesn't have free will any more is what bothered me from the start.

Has she resigned herself to her "glorious" fate? If so, time to do what I do best as a Dark Knight and try to knock some freedom into her. Barring that, good ol' deicide?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The fact that Minfilia looks like she doesn't have free will any more is what bothered me from the start.

Has she resigned herself to her "glorious" fate? If so, time to do what I do best as a Dark Knight and try to knock some freedom into her. Barring that, good ol' deicide?

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Just rewatched her last cutscene, she didn't seem very happy about it back then, with her saying "No!" to Hydaelyn, then giving us what sounded like a final goodbye.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

Just rewatched her last cutscene, she didn't seem very happy about it back then, with her saying "No!" to Hydaelyn, then giving us what sounded like a final goodbye.

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All the more reason to let Cilia have her stabby way with the mother crystal if she enthralled Minfilia primal style.

I'm getting serious Aria vibes from that new look now...

Thanks in advance Min, for taking that arrow for me... Warriors of Darkness are going to have to do something to make us hate them...

Now I'm noticing a lot of water in Antitower and can't stop dissecting the bgm...

We already had a Desch/Aria/Alus composite character in the CT storyline (with Ramnbroes standing in for Aria's dad), though I'm more convinced lately that they did that for no other reason than to have a grounds for comparison when Minfilia's turn came.

May be adding Hydaelyn to my stabby-stab [Assasinate] list after Salina if this is going where I think it is...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

We already had a Desch/Aria/Alus composite character in the CT storyline (with Ramnbroes standing in for Aria's dad), though I'm more convinced lately that they did that for no other reason than to have a grounds for comparison when Minfilia's turn came.

May be adding Hydaelyn to my stabby-stab [Assasinate] list after Salina if this is going where I think it is...

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Because assassinating a planet is always a viable option!

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Originally Posted by Soldowner

Because assassinating a planet is always a viable option!

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Once her HP drops below 20%, I bring on the pain.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Once her HP drops below 20%, I bring on the pain.

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As long as I get the last hit with Mercy Stroke, I'm right there with you.