When are we going to infiltrate the Garlean Empire?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah. This is often neglected in 'Garleans are antagonists' discussions. I mean, yes - they are - but they're not incompetent. They've simply been tricked into doing stuff...like most prominent Eorzeans have including the WoL. As for Regula and Varis? We don't know enough about their motives just yet. We've a few hints but nothing we can piece together firmly.

---

Isn't Regula the one who razed Doma?

I should also point out that the people who put Meteor in play aren't "a select few" We're frequently told that X Garlean disapproved of Meteor. It's made note of when they speak of Varis. That they made note of it makes it notable. On the flip side, Gaius, our goldenboy of justified slaughter actually DID go rogue. ((As I understand it, Nael did to, but that was AFTER setting Dalamud to fall))

Of course, I still believe that if you asked your average rank and file Garlean "Hey, what do you think of dropping a moon on Eorzea?" the prevailing response would be "That's uh... that's a little crazy. Don't we have troops over there?" but they're unlikely to do anything.

As another aside, why do we get to throw Nael under the bus to preserve Garlemald, but Ilberd IS Ala Mhigo? Livia and her hit squad are violent and insane and therefore don't represent what the XIVth stands for, but The Corpse Brigade are the type of people that the ones that want Ala Mhigo back are fighting for?

I really wouldn't mind a more reasonable representation of Garlemald, where things aren't so black and white, but let's not pretend they don't have a LOT of work to do to compensate.

Note, if they are hueing close to VI right now, I wouldn't trust any truce they offer us without assuming dirty deeds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Isn't Regula the one who razed Doma?

---

I don't recall him taking credit for it nor the Domans or Garleans saying which Legion was in charge of it.

Livia was 'insane' because she was both an orphan and lost all those she cared for. We don't know the circumstances surrounding her early life or even how her parents came to be killed - but we do know that she's definitely a pure Garlean given her sister's revelation. Which makes it a possibility that she's an orphan as a direct result of Garlemald's enemies killing her parents - which would at least partially justify her ruthlessness and hatred for those who aren't aligned with Garlemald. That doesn't excuse her attitude/behaviour, naturally, but it's not as if there's a lack of Eorzeans who slaughter Garleans indiscriminately with no regard to the fact that they have hopes, dreams and loved ones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Livia was 'insane' because she was both an orphan and lost all those she cared for. We don't know the circumstances surrounding her early life or even how her parents came to be killed - but we do know that she's definitely a pure Garlean given her sister's revelation. Which makes it a possibility that she's an orphan as a direct result of Garlemald's enemies killing her parents - which would at least partially justify her ruthlessness and hatred for those who aren't aligned with Garlemald. That doesn't excuse her attitude/behaviour, naturally, but it's not as if there's a lack of Eorzeans who slaughter Garleans indiscriminately with no regard to the fact that they have hopes, dreams and loved ones.

---

That could explain her near worship of the very ground Gaius van Baelsar stood on considering he took her in, raised her (And possibly Lucia and Cid) for most of her life. Leading her to view him as a father figure and owing everything she is to him. Still though, she seemed mentally unstable far beyond simple PTSD. She seemed borderline psychotic to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

-snip-

---

She also seemed to see him as more than a father figure. Or rather perhaps Gaius saw her as more than an adopted daughter? >_>

'My chambers. One hour.' Or some such. Though it could just be an unfortunate choice of wording?

As for her being unstable such is pretty common for someone who has experienced a lot of conflict. Heck, the WoL risks becoming like that according to the Dark Knight quests and we've met many Eorzean NPC's who relish in the slaughter of Garleans/Beast Tribes. Then there's the Ishgardians...many of whom relished in the idea of torturing and murdering innocents in the name of a misguided crusade.

On a side note, there has to be a reason as to why the Garleans are so keen to bring Hydaelyn under their control. If they suffered significantly at the hands of Primals then it might explain their ruthlessness - and I could easily see Eorzeans become like that if they end up trapped in a cycle where they're defeating Primal after Primal after Primal...alongside other threats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

She also seemed to see him as more than a father figure. Or rather perhaps Gaius saw her as more than an adopted daughter? >_>

'My chambers. One hour.' Or some such. Though it could just be an unfortunate choice of wording?

As for her being unstable such is pretty common for someone who has experienced a lot of conflict. Heck, the WoL risks becoming like that according to the Dark Knight quests and we've met many Eorzean NPC's who relish in the slaughter of Garleans/Beast Tribes. Then there's the Ishgardians...many of whom relished in the idea of torturing and murdering innocents in the name of a misguided crusade.

On a side note, there has to be a reason as to why the Garleans are so keen to bring Hydaelyn under their control. If they suffered significantly at the hands of Primals then it might explain their ruthlessness - and I could easily see Eorzeans become like that if they end up trapped in a cycle where they're defeating Primal after Primal after Primal...alongside other threats.

---

The chambers thing is just an odd choice of words. He was giving her an order but she was being reprimanded. As far as the Garlands wanting to yolk hydaelyn, they seem to have a problem with Deities in general. Even saying The Twelve were the same thing as Primal. (Which as far as we know they are). Which, I don't really blame them. They lack the ability to manipulate aether into magic and thus resort to machines. They seem to believe The Echo is exclusive to Eorzea which suggest to me they don't have it either. So if a primal IS summoned Then they can only resort to a combo of The Allagan and Company of Hero's tactics. Send in waves to force the tempering, stave off the tempered, and deal as much damage as possible before it tempers more people. And they add machines to their ranks since you can't temper something that's not a sentient being to begin with.

if they consider all Magic based gods and goddesses to be the same thing, I really don't blame them for being afraid of them and wanting them gone.

Yeah. I don't really blame them for that either. Final Fantasy games also have a long tradition of eventually revealing a character's religious beliefs to be false or misguided. I suspect a lot of 'deities' are much like Gridania's Elementals - in that they're not necessarily pure and righteous. That's assuming they exist at all...and if they do there's no real guarantee that they've actually got the mortal races best interests in mind. At this point I fully expect both Hydaelyn and Zodiark to be manipulating the mortal races as pawns in their conflict with little regard to who perishes in the process. Hopefully we'll get some major lore dumps regarding that sort of thing in the next patch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

YI suspect a lot of 'deities' are much like Gridania's Elementals - in that they're not necessarily pure and righteous. That's assuming they exist at all...

---

Oh elementals exist. Like Acsians and Primals their bodies are made of pure aether. (Though they only manifest when they want) and elementals are even admitted by Gridanians to be fickle and dangerous. But, until recently at least, they had so much sway over The Twelve's Wood that nothing could (Or rather was allowed to) survive there with out their consent. Thus why the Gelmorans had to kiss serious Elemental back side in order to come above ground with out being killed. The Ixali are not technically allowed to be in The Twelves Wood, but at this point the elementals are so weak there's not much they can do about it. Luckily for the elementals The Ixali and Gridanians don't get along very well.

I always took the livia being sent to gaius's chambers just as a private scolding from Gaius because of her actions in the waking sands and her failures at castrum centri. Despite how she captured minfillia and all that I don't think gaius actually ordered her to go and kill nearly everyone and to capture the leader, she likely did it on her own to 'prove' something to gaius and while her plan succeeded gaius may not have liked the method or the action out of order. A plan from gaius would be a little more subtle imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

On a side note, there has to be a reason as to why the Garleans are so keen to bring Hydaelyn under their control. If they suffered significantly at the hands of Primals then it might explain their ruthlessness - and I could easily see Eorzeans become like that if they end up trapped in a cycle where they're defeating Primal after Primal after Primal...alongside other threats.

---

From what I've read, they first encountered Primals in Doma, right? And it's Primals that made that war as nasty as it was, so that's probably where the fanaticism against them specifically comes from.

The story doesn't really deny that that's a reasonable reaction - we think the Primals are bad too, after all. It's really more...everything else about Garlemald. Nations going on a campaign of brutal conquest for its own sake aren't exactly considered the good guys anymore, ever since we realized what a bad thing colonialism was. And, as I think has been mentioned, it's not like they're even letting the conquered people reap the fruits of their advanced society - every single non-Garlean will be a second-class citizen at BEST, and very likely little more than a brutalized conscript (if the methods used on the Ala Mhigans are any indication). For every noble goal of theirs, they have two things about them that make them undesirable as conquerors. There's very little about them that would make them seen as benevolent in the eyes of the conquered.

EDIT: To actually answer your question: I think it's abundantly clear that they're conquering Hydaelyn because they can and because it makes them feel Important and Strong. It started with their own land, it continued in Doma, and they turned to the last piece when they were able to after that went pear-shaped.

Your implication seems to be that something triggered their massive campaign against the rest of the world, but there doesn't seem to be any indication of that. It couldn't have been the Primals; the Domans' summoning of them caught them by surprise. Sure, it then informed their approach to Eorzea (Silvertear was because they wanted to avoid another Doma by pre-emptively stopping the locals from summoning Primals in reaction to their assault, remember), but it wasn't the raison-de-guerre. I really think it's just good old-fashioned, self-important Imperialism at play.

Even if it is it's not as if Eorzea is a stranger to that sort of mentality. Heck, pretty much every City State thinks way too highly of themselves and if we take PvP into account...they can't even work together sensibly at times. Sharlayan is implied - at least in the AST quests - to be similarly self righteous. Ala Mhigo would not doubt have continued to try and take over Eorzea if not for Garlemald's intervention. I'm also not entirely sure that life would be much worse under Garlean rule when discrimination, poverty and class warfare plagues...pretty much every corner of Eorzea anyway.

Eorzea is simply the 'protagonist' and thinks much too highly of itself. Garlemald has committed atrocities, yes, but it's a recent affair. Ishgard has been doing it for a thousand years - yet stands to be forgiven despite that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Eorzea is simply the 'protagonist' and thinks much too highly of itself. Garlemald has committed atrocities, yes, but it's a recent affair. Ishgard has been doing it for a thousand years - yet stands to be forgiven despite that.

---

Considering that the people who were perpetrating the Ishgardian atrocities are either thousands of years dead, dead recently by our hands, or probably going to get theirs for throwing a child off a skyscraper, and those who benefited from it are attempting to make reparations, while the Garlean atrocities are still in recent memory, as you say, I'm not quite sure I see the point. We are, for the most part, sided with the victims of these atrocities ((The Ishgardian rank and file were as much a victim of the Archbishop's machinations as anyone else)). And Lolrito, whom sticks to us like a bad rash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Even if it is it's not as if Eorzea is a stranger to that sort of mentality. Heck, pretty much every City State thinks way too highly of themselves and if we take PvP into account...they can't even work together sensibly at times. Sharlayan is implied - at least in the AST quests - to be similarly self righteous.

---

And yet, no single city-state has sought to expand its borders via conquest Just Because (save the Ala Mhigo of a century past, but I'll get to that). Not even Sharlayan, snooty superiority complex or not. That's the major difference. Sure, the others are a petty, squabbling brood, but Garlemald is actively conquering and subjugating and thus makes them a villainous faction that needs to be stopped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm also not entirely sure that life would be much worse under Garlean rule when discrimination, poverty and class warfare plagues...pretty much every corner of Eorzea anyway.

---

Really? I am. We know exactly what to expect, thanks to Ala Mhigo. See (2) below.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Ala Mhigo would not doubt have continued to try and take over Eorzea if not for Garlemald's intervention.

---

(1) The Autumn War was a century ago. All evidence I've seen points to Ala Mhigo more or less keeping to themselves ever since.

(2) Look, I don't think Ala Mhigo sounds like it was an especially brilliant place pre-Gaius, but things aren't exactly GOOD under Garlean rule either (forced conscription, routine murder exercises to keep people in line, second-and-lower-class-citizens, etc). Plus it's the foothold of an expansionist-for-expansionism's-sake empire. Whatever Ala Mhigo was, its liberation is a necessary step in culling the ambitions of the Garleans. We can discuss their former Mad King or whatever when the time comes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Garlemald has committed atrocities, yes, but it's a recent affair. Ishgard has been doing it for a thousand years - yet stands to be forgiven despite that.

---

Nothing that Ishgard has done has been on the scale of the Garlean expansion. Nothing. Yes, religious fanaticism played out there much like it did in real life; yes, what the first Thordan did was unquestionably an act of war; yes, Ishgardian leadership deliberately perpetrated a false historical narrative that led to the suffering of its own citizens (and plenty of Dravanians besides). However, Niddhog's own crusade against Ishgard is as much to blame (what, you think the state of war could have been sustained for a thousand years if he had not sought to prolong it?), many of the perpetrators of the Ishgardian atrocities are dead and gone, and motions are being made to forgive and move forward.

And speaking of that - factions of both sides are ready to unconditionally lay down the sword and just let it end. Call me when Garlemald is ready to unconditionally pull out and leave.

Look, if you can provide a reason (beyond keeping that war economy a-rollin') for Garlemald's expansion, I'll gain some sympathy to their aims; if you can show an example of one thing (beyond themselves) that they've left better than they found it, I'll join your chorus now. But there isn't one. They've left everything worse off in a campaign that is purely selfish - and, by the way, that's not bad/morally simplistic writing, that's incredibly true to life. Expansionist empires just don't tend to leave the areas they conquer better off for those who live there. We've seen this countless times across history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Ala Mhigo would not doubt have continued to try and take over Eorzea if not for Garlemald's intervention.

---

What are you basing this on? You have said it several times. Ala Mhigo hasn't invaded anyone in 100 years. The Autumn War was literally ages ago. There is quite possibly no one still alive who was alive during the Autumn War.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm also not entirely sure that life would be much worse under Garlean rule when discrimination, poverty and class warfare plagues...pretty much every corner of Eorzea anyway.

Eorzea is simply the 'protagonist' and thinks much too highly of itself. Garlemald has committed atrocities, yes, but it's a recent affair. Ishgard has been doing it for a thousand years - yet stands to be forgiven despite that.

---

We know that people in Ala Mhigo were very badly treated. We have met a guy who the Garlean Military forced into prostitution for the soldiers (a reference to comfort woman in WW2 probably.) It was so traumatic for them they leaped to their deaths rather than get recaptured by Garlean soldiers. We know youth were taken forcefully from their families, brainwashed and then made to kill their family members.

Lets add to that that we know the ranks of the class system that exists in Garlean society and people in occupied lands don't even have the rank or rights of citizens. That doesn't give encouraging signs of how garlean occupation would be an improvement. Do you really think all the refugees are living in slums and starving outside Ul'dah when its great back home?

Eorzea is the protagonist because they aren't attacking anyone. Garlemald is. Garlemald is starting the fights. If a guy walks up unprovoked and starts punching you they are the one in the wrong. Plus its the fact that the atrocities that Garlemald is committing are a recent affair that's the issue. If they stopped committing those atrocities it would probably make better sense to be forgiving them. Its worth noting that Ishgard isn't and hasn't exactly gotten off scott free for what has happened in its past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

From what I've read, they first encountered Primals in Doma, right? And it's Primals that made that war as nasty as it was, so that's probably where the fanaticism against them specifically comes from.

---

No I'm pretty sure that these days the Primals are confined to Eorzea. During the lead up to Leviathan Yugiri mentions that there are old tales of Primals in Doma, but nothing like that has been seen for a very long time. That's why she wanted to help against Leviathan, so she could see what kind of threat they really were.

@Belhi:

Right, but like I was saying that's horrible but it's no worse than a lot of the stuff that Eorzeans themselves have done in recent years. To a lesser extent, perhaps, but Garlemald's invasion is very much a recent thing. Some Garlean soldiers mistreating prisoners is unfortunate but...it's very, very likely that the same thing happens on Eorzea's side of the fence too. Garlemald is a pretty blatant reference to Rome. Rome was one of the most civilised, advanced and influential societies to ever exist on our planet. Even to this very day it's influence can be found in our day to day lives.


Did it have major problems? Sure, but the quality of life - even for the 'lesser' citizens was arguably much better than what they'd have endured if left to fend for themselves. I don't believe for a second that Eorzea is necessarily 'better' for the average Eorzean. Sure, they may have their 'freedom' but in many cases that in itself is just an illusion. They'd still be bound by poverty and having to deal with all manner of grotesque monsters the moment they step outside of a settlement...

I'm not excusing the Garleans as being pure and righteous. I'm stating that people are rather selective about how they paint them when compared to Eorzeans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuperFlorinjin

No I'm pretty sure that these days the Primals are confined to Eorzea. During the lead up to Leviathan Yugiri mentions that there are old tales of Primals in Doma, but nothing like that has been seen for a very long time. That's why she wanted to help against Leviathan, so she could see what kind of threat they really were.

---

Yugiri may never have seen them, and I may have been wrong in saying they popped up in Doma, but Othard's Primals are indeed part of the backstory. From Moose's "The Rise and Fall of the White Raven":

Quote:

---

The Empire spread all but unchallenged as their airships and machina conquered first the rest of Ilsabard and then the majority of the eastern continent of Othard. It was in the east that the Garleans first encountered the awe-inspiringly destructive capabilities of beings known as primals, otherworldly entities whose physical presence in Hydaelyn is maintained through the consumption of aether, a substance thought to be the source of all life and magic.

---

And, as it goes on to say:

Quote:

---

With a critical foothold in Eorzea firmly established, Garlemald was prepared to begin their conquest in earnest. Ancient mythology revered Silvertear Lake, deep in Aldenard’s forest region of Mor Dhona, as a profound focus of spiritual energy, earning it such attributions as the source of all water and the fount of all magic. Measurements of the land’s aetheric flow led Garlean researchers to believe that the area was a massive convergence of aether, if not the center of a global network. If the beast tribes of Eorzea learned to utilize this abundance to summon their eikon gods, the Empire would be drawn into another prolonged and onerous campaign against primals.

---

So, yeah, Primals may be an Eorzean thing now, but the Empire has encountered and fought against them before, and even based their entire Eorzean campaign off those past encounters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Sure, but the quality of life - even for the 'lesser' citizens was arguably much better than what they'd have endured if left to fend for themselves.

---

You'll have to give a source on that. We have nobody, inside or outside the game's world, who has spoken to life under Garlean rule being better (just that King Theodric sucked a bunch). Nor is it "some Garlean soldiers mistreating prisoners" - everything about their attitude towards the conquered, from conscription to routine daily execution to prostitution, screams of official military policy (at the very least of the XIVth Legion, which was one of the Empire's most celebrated until Gaius effectively went rogue; I don't imagine their actions are uncondoned). The Garlean attitude towards conquered nations and their people is also clear, from Rhitatyn's entire backstory to that one book in Gubal.

There's no source, it's mere speculation. I imagine it stands to reason though - because much like Roman society the influence of Garlemald can be felt everywhere. Eorzean has entered a technological age and embraced magitek itself to some extent...so imagine what it must be like for the average citizen of Garlemald to have access to all sorts of advanced technology? Assuming they do, of course, but it strikes me as very likely. It's why we really need more information as to what Garlemald is actually like as well as what the conquered regions are actually like.


I mean, obviously the people who flee Garlean strongholds have nothing pleasant to say about the Garleans but we have yet to hear Garlemald's side of things. All the statements made by those who fled are subject to bias. There's likely a partially justifiable reason for acting the way that they do - and I've long speculated that Doma was razed as a result of Domans slaughtering innocent Garlean civilians in their little rising. That doesn't justify genocide, of course, but the game's writers very rarely make events black or white in regards to morality.

We don't necessarily know if they are expanding for expansions sake, I'll imagine we'll get to garlemalds history at some point and it'll probably be a little more grey than simply the most dominant power on ilsabard decides to become a warmongering empire because they can. For all we know garlemald could of had a history of being invaded by it's neighbors because of it's obvious weakness before the technological revolution started by Solus. It does mention on solus's bio on the site that the people elected him emperor so there's something to think about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

There's no source, it's mere speculation. I imagine it stands to reason though - because much like Roman society the influence of Garlemald can be felt everywhere. Eorzean has entered a technological age and embraced magitek itself to some extent...so imagine what it must be like for the average citizen of Garlemald to have access to all sorts of advanced technology? Assuming they do, of course, but it strikes me as very likely. It's why we really need more information as to what Garlemald is actually like as well as what the conquered regions are actually like.


I mean, obviously the people who flee Garlean strongholds have nothing pleasant to say about the Garleans but we have yet to hear Garlemald's side of things. All the statements made by those who fled are subject to bias. There's likely a partially justifiable reason for acting the way that they do - and I've long speculated that Doma was razed as a result of Domans slaughtering innocent Garlean civilians in their little rising. That doesn't justify genocide, of course, but the game's writers very rarely make events black or white in regards to morality.

---

To the first point. Every Roman citizen had an improved life, arguably. You just can't forget that they drew a distinction between citizen and living breathing human. Rome survived on the backs of THOUSANDS of slaves, whose lives were very much not better than back before Rome took over and made them slaves. I have more to add, but I'll get back to this one on a later post.

To the second, Garlemald is going to have a hell of a battle explaining their side of randomized murder, Brainwashing and forced prostitution.

That said, there IS a close symbolism that you are missing between one of the city states and Garlemald. Limsa also has a current issue with reckless expansionism causing the native population to react violently to said expansionism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

There's no source, it's mere speculation. I imagine it stands to reason though - because much like Roman society the influence of Garlemald can be felt everywhere. Eorzean has entered a technological age and embraced magitek itself to some extent...so imagine what it must be like for the average citizen of Garlemald to have access to all sorts of advanced technology? Assuming they do, of course, but it strikes me as very likely. It's why we really need more information as to what Garlemald is actually like as well as what the conquered regions are actually like.


I mean, obviously the people who flee Garlean strongholds have nothing pleasant to say about the Garleans but we have yet to hear Garlemald's side of things. All the statements made by those who fled are subject to bias. There's likely a partially justifiable reason for acting the way that they do - and I've long speculated that Doma was razed as a result of Domans slaughtering innocent Garlean civilians in their little rising. That doesn't justify genocide, of course, but the game's writers very rarely make events black or white in regards to morality.

---

Im sure life for the average Garlean citizen isn't too bad, particularly with Garlemald's technological developments. However almost no one in the occupied territories is a Garlean citizen. Their class rank doesn't give them that status.

I don't think the Garleans as a people are inherently evil. I do think their war of aggression and their leadership, even if misguided by some sense of bringing order to the world, are evil in their actions and their ambitions. I also think the current leadership of Garlemald is interested in Garlean imperial power and expansion, the way most empires throughout history have been. Frankly nothing seems to indicate otherwise.

If we are going off what is in the game, which is all we can really to draw the closest to an accurate picture, the picture your trying to draw isn't accurate. Everything in the game has show Garleans as having a reckless hubris when it comes to technology, and being an empire that is both oppressive and aggressive with a lust for dominance over the world. They haven't always been like that probably and they may in the future not be like that. Hell there is highly likely factions within Garlemald that aren't like that. However the current rulers of Garlemald are like that from all evidence we have been given in game.