The trinity, party responsibility, and how to try and improve the game from within

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

From the link you posted:

"Norm (n.) - an authoritative standard."

So yes, maybe it was not a wise choice to use 'norm' to refer to Healer DPS.

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Indeed, 1 out of the many (3 simple, 1, 2, 3a,3b,3c detailed) definitions included the word 'authoritative' to suggest that a norm can, but is not required, to have an authoritative backing.

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Originally Posted by Felis

So, a healer doing damage should be a red alarm sign for the DPS classes.

maybe the devs should build in a tome reward penalty for DPS classes if the healer did more damage than they.

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10X this. Even more so, make the penalty apply doubly and to the entire party, not just DD's. -25% tome rewards for everyone if tank or healer outdpses the DPS, -50% if both are true. Otherwise, the system would be too easy to abuse.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

10X this. Even more so, make the penalty apply doubly and to the entire party, not just DD's. -25% tome rewards for everyone if tank or healer outdpses the DPS, -50% if both are true. Otherwise, the system would be too easy to abuse.

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Or you could just reward people for doing more than they are required to complete something.

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Originally Posted by Istede

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Unless you have every single instance on farm, yes, there's a lot of places where you don't have downtime due to people screwing up and you having to bring them up. Even in Sastasha it's possible to need to heal every GCD, on triple pulls, for example.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Unless you have every single instance on farm, yes, there's a lot of places where you don't have downtime due to people screwing up and you having to bring them up. Even in Sastasha it's possible to need to heal every GCD, on triple pulls, for example.

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But didn't you just prove the point? If you have to triple-pull to get the healer to heal, then that should clue you in to the fact that on a normal-size pull, there's plenty of downtime.

I actually think incentivizing DPS to not just let the healers and tanks pick up the slack is a great idea. That way, everyone is doing as much as they can to clear the instance, instead of just saying "ok, the other jobs will cover it, whatever." Have the game engine reward bonus tomes to players who exceed a pre-determined DPS threshold for the instance (which would be different for each job). Don't even need to publicize the numbers or even who got the bonus within the party. Do it all in the background and give a message to just the player after the instance has ended.

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Originally Posted by Istede

I am a scholar main

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There's your problem. You aren't actually playing a healer, you're playing a DPS job. Even during progression scholar's barely heal directly, they mostly just spam damage skills because their fairy is more than enough to help the real healer.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Or you could just reward people for doing more than they are required to complete something.

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So you would be completely fine with dying so that the healer can artificially inflate his damage numbers over yours? With a system like that in place, the healer can easily gimp it by letting the DD's die at every opportunity to unavoidable damage, which would wind up punishing the DD for something that isn't even their fault while rewarding the healer tor playing poorly.

I think we are going back in to the healer DPS debate, which is not the topic at hand to which we're responding. The OP even linked 5 relevant threads that we could contribute to if we really wanted to open that can of worms again.

Let's go back to the main topic, the OP listed the following as the goal of their post.

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I'll try to give my point of view on the trinity and what it has become in FFxiv
I'll talk a bit about the threads that we see poping here and there (dps, healers, and whatnot)
I'll give some of my ideas on what we, the community, could do to improve ourselves, and what the devs can do to help us in that process

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Tacking on to this, we want to address the blured lines of heals/tanks entering damage territory and resulting in DPS being less important than before - while also not making it so that tanks and healers are bored by limiting their scope.

I mentioned it already, but I think the best way to tackle this is to have specializations. Specs would allow for
DPS to be more tanky in open world and more glass cannon in dungeon content, while more middle ground in progression (mixing survivability and damage dealt)
healers being heavily damage focused in open world and healing focused in group content with the option to be more middle ground if you prefer to heal and contribute DPS
Tanks to be less tanky and more damage focused in open world and.. you get the idea.

We already have this to some extent with say,
WAR = DPS, DRK = Middle, PLD = Mitigation
WHM = Heals/DPS, SCH = DPS focused, AST = Heals/Support focused

I think the problem comes in to scaling/tuning. A WAR can do nearly the same DPS as a damage dealer if they wear all STR and go deliverance. PLD's mitigation was hindered with the design to make progression all focused on magic damage. Content was tuned too easy for healers to stand around healing, encouraging a higher DPS usage.

If we do not add specs, and simply use the jobs as our specs, I propose the following changes:
1. Have more shared gear, and make it easier to swap between your DPS tank (WAR) and mitigation tank (PLD) depending on your fight
2. Use Kosmos idea, but maybe instead of changing how jobs work in instanced content, provide solo buffs. If you are a PLD in open world, and not in a party, you have a 50% increase to damage dealt bonus.
3. Reduce Tank damage significantly
4. Reduce healing damage moderately
5. Increase damage dealers damage moderately
6. Tune content to require more healing
7. Adjust dungeon content to not favour mass pulls, but rather teamwork and coordination

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Unless you have every single instance on farm, yes, there's a lot of places where you don't have downtime due to people screwing up and you having to bring them up. Even in Sastasha it's possible to need to heal every GCD, on triple pulls, for example.

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Frankly I have downtime even on big pulls, unless there's a screw-up like you say. Even then, though, I may have to heal nonstop for 15 or 20s, then the damage begins to to taper off and I go right back into clerics.

Your example though, it takes a screw up or someone purposely pulling almost an entire floor of a dungeon to require me to only heal, what does that say about the game?

Where is the instance that requires me to use Eos with a WHM co-healer and that has such frequent and powerful tank-busters that I can't even spend 3 GCDs not topping and shielding the tank? That is the kind of stuff I am talking about. Until a fight like that exists, I will view non-DPSing healers as C or D students.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

There's your problem. You aren't actually playing a healer, you're playing a DPS job. Even during progression scholar's barely heal directly, they mostly just spam damage skills because their fairy is more than enough to help the real healer.

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I heal plenty when needed. Not my fault that WHM is such an obscenely powerful healer that my healing or mitigation is only necessary in certain parts of some fights. I would love a fight where both healers had to heal the whole time in order to clear. Nothing like that exists.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

So you would be completely fine with dying so that the healer can artificially inflate his damage numbers over yours? With a system like that in place, the healer can easily gimp it by letting the DD's die at every opportunity to unavoidable damage, which would wind up punishing the DD for something that isn't even their fault while rewarding the healer tor playing poorly.

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Except that you'd have to clear the instance to get the bonus. So if healers don't heal boot them because you're not clearing the instance.

Or make it a hp healed + dps done reward. Calculate how much unavoidable damage there is in an instance, multiply by 1.5 or something because invariably people take more than just unavoidable damage, then set a low DPS threshold in addition to that. There, healers who wanna heal can, but they don't get the bonus. Healers who do their job and also DPS get a bonus. Done. Signed, sealed delivered.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Except that you'd have to clear the instance to get the bonus. So if healers don't heal boot them because you're not clearing the instance.
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Are we talking dungeons, where most people go to farm tomes, or end game raiding? Because if we're talking dungeons, you're more than capable of just two manning it without a single DD. It'd take LONGER sure, but I can't imagine anyone would complain if they got a bonus for punishing the DDers to go as DPS instead of tanks or healers, ESPECIALLY if you have a warrior or a scholar.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It'd take LONGER sure, but I can't imagine anyone would complain if they got a bonus for punishing the DDers

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Um, depends on the bonus. If the dungeon takes twice as long because warrior + sch instead of a four man, but the bonus is not as big as running the dungeon twice, it's not worth it and people won't do it. Furthermore, you could opt to run dungeons undersized, so why queue DF just to let two players die. Seems like an unnecessary waste of time when you can set your run up that way.

And...second suggestion just got...ignored? Nice.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

And...second suggestion just got...ignored? Nice.

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I didn't ignore your suggestion, I just feels it opens the door far too wide to intentionally sabotage other players who could otherwise be doing great damage, only for a healer to let them die at certain points, because, "I almost have enough tomes for 'x', so with x seconds of Death and res sickness I can guarantee out damaging that/those DD's." Whateverthe tthreshold actually is, a healer would have the tools to surpass it with needless overhealing instead of keeping the party alive.

Double post since I'm on mobile, but this also assumes that the tank isn't in on it. The tank can easily spin the boss on purpose to cleave the damage dealers as well, and if a tank and healer queued together under such a system, I honestly can't see anything but pain for whatever DPS have the unfortunate luck to be paired up with them. Pardon if I come off too strongly, but I strongly disagree with any kind of system that can be used to sabotage.

Did you read my suggestion where we don't tell people what the threshold is and it gets calculated in the background? How would someone know if they were close to getting it or not? And if you wanted to run it without DDs, why would you not just run it undersized? Only if you're a troll. And if you are a troll, you were doing it before now.

I don't think you come off too strongly, I understand your concern. I just think it would be very hard to abuse a blind system.

ETA: I just wanted to be clear that I am perfectly fine with the way the game is now. I said it in a prior post. If something like this gets implemented and implemented well, cool. If not, I have absolutely no problem if my run is longer because DPS are being lazy because I'm DPSing. I mean, it irks me, but I'm not gonna throw a tantrum about it. The only person I can control is me and I'm gonna have fun no matter what. So, whatever. :)

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Did you read my suggestion where we don't tell people what the threshold is and it gets calculated in the background? How would someone know if they were close to getting it or not? And if you wanted to run it without DDs, why would you not just run it undersized?

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It would only remain a blind system for so long. Someone would inevitably math out what the magic break point would be between a bonus and a punishment, and people would strive to replicate it. In addition, 3.X dungeons can't be undersized, so for law farming, it would still remain a concern.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It would only remain a blind system for so long. Someone would inevitably math out what the magic break point would be between a bonus and a punishment, and people would strive to replicate it. In addition, 3.X dungeons can't be undersized, so for law farming, it would still remain a concern.

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I must say that you are very good at finding abuses. Maybe you should design systems. No sarcasm.

Hmm...What about if the bonus could only be received if the instance was finished with all four players alive? Or if bonus couldn't be received if any party member died more than x times? Basically make it to where eam members dying is disincentivized.

I still think there's something to be said for the efficiency issue. For any grinded item like tomes, efficiency is king. If it's slower to kill off the DDs than it is to cooperate with them, the behavior will select against itself.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

TL;DR :
I guess the best way to summarize this 15k caracters essay would be : "Be social and try to do your best, as a player and as a human" ?

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Good read, but I'd like to comment on this bolded text:

Being social goes against a lot of players. If there's a group in PF but you KNOW you can clear it, you ask if you can join with bonus, and most of the times, it's "No!" or a bazillion questions that you just say forget it.

Wtf is trinity? Are you kids done trying to create new terms? Its just a classic party since how they are since 1998 designs....

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Or you could just reward people for doing more than they are required to complete something.

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If DPS do their jobs right (do more dmg than a healer or tank), they will get rewarded with 100% tomes

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I must say that you are very good at finding abuses. Maybe you should design systems. No sarcasm.

Hmm...What about if the bonus could only be received if the instance was finished with all four players alive? Or if bonus couldn't be received if any party member died more than x times? Basically make it to where eam members dying is disincentivized.

I still think there's something to be said for the efficiency issue. For any grinded item like tomes, efficiency is king. If it's slower to kill off the DDs than it is to cooperate with them, the behavior will select against itself.

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Nah, don't like this. During the Zodiac weapon runs, if you were dead when the boss died, you get no credit. Imagine if you died because the healer was focusing too much on DD'ing, or as a DPS, you lagged and didn't move out the AoE. Then, they healer raised you and you died again after you got up. Or you died, and the healer didn't have enough MP to raise you while the DPS people continued to beat down the boss....

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

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She's not talking about a system currently in the game. She's talking about a theoretical system where the healer, and only the healer, would gain bonus tomes under certain situations by applying high DPS while keeping the party alive. Under those situations, it doesn't seem as open to abuse, so I'd actually like it, but conversely, under that system, I'm curious how you'd reward DPS that perform exceptionally, as well as tanks.

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Originally Posted by Felmyst

Wtf is trinity? Are you kids done trying to create new terms? Its just a classic party since how they are since 1998 designs....

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the term is not really new
But maybe not as old as 1998

http://reportsfromthefield.com/wp-co...olytrinity.jpg

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Originally Posted by Felis

the term is not really new
But maybe not as old as 1998
[/IMG]

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For MMOs it might not be old.

I first encountered the concept in role-playing dungeon instances in college 40 years ago.

It was a lot looser then, and 'tank' wasn't really a role so much as the fact that the heavy metal group [aka those who wore Plate] were always up front and close with the trash/boss, while the squishies [aka those who died easily when hit up-close] were casting fire bolts or firing arrows from afar. Healers [clerics] generally belonged to the heavy metal group and we could DPS for sure.

The heavy metal group had a job to contain the monsters and prevent them from running at the squishies, while the squishies had the job of wreaking as much havoc on the enemy as possible. Clerics, um, we bashed and blessed and cured as necessary.

I like to think there would be fewer arguments if healers in MMOs still belonged to that heavy metal group.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

She's not talking about a system currently in the game. She's talking about a theoretical system where the healer, and only the healer, would gain bonus tomes under certain situations by applying high DPS while keeping the party alive. Under those situations, it doesn't seem as open to abuse, so I'd actually like it, but conversely, under that system, I'm curious how you'd reward DPS that perform exceptionally, as well as tanks.

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Then the "Adventurer in need" would always be DPS lol...

How about a Gold/Silver/Bronze medal system based on individual contribution - which would affect exp/gil/tomestones rewarded from both drops and the roulette.

It would take into account Damage Taken, Damage Dealt, Damage Healed
Therefore, if a healer cannot DPS and must heal more due to people taking extra damage, they are not penalized. However, it would encourage a healer to DPS when there is little healing to do.
It would encourage DPS to maximize their damage output, as they are generally not healing
It would encourage tanks to first focus on damage mitigation, and then on damage dealt

That said, each criteria would be tuned per role. Like taking 20k damage to the tank is not much, but if a DPS takes 20k damage throughout, that is not so great.

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Originally Posted by Felmyst

Wtf is trinity? Are you kids done trying to create new terms? Its just a classic party since how they are since 1998 designs....

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May want to think before you post, since 'Trinity' has been a term ever since World of Warcraft launched (and possibly before), all a post like this does is make you look woefully ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

So you would be completely fine with dying so that the healer can artificially inflate his damage numbers over yours? With a system like that in place, the healer can easily gimp it by letting the DD's die at every opportunity to unavoidable damage, which would wind up punishing the DD for something that isn't even their fault while rewarding the healer tor playing poorly.

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Good DDs don't actually take that much damage over the course of the run.

Truth is, there's really no way for this to, as you said, "be open for abuse." DDs reach damage totals that healers and tanks are incapable of reaching if they actually try. The issue with dps classes getting beaten by healers and tanks on the parse stems from the DD players not caring enough to try while the healer/tank is pushing the limits of their job

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Good DDs don't actually take that much damage over the course of the run.

Truth is, there's really no way for this to, as you said, "be open for abuse." DDs reach damage totals that healers and tanks are incapable of reaching if they actually try. The issue with dps classes getting beaten by healers and tanks on the parse stems from the DD players not caring enough to try while the healer/tank is pushing the limits of their job

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Depends on both gear level and the fight in question. I've noticed more unavoidable AoE's lately from most bosses.

IMO a big part why all this mess is happening is the fact that DD classes don't do much more damage than Tanks/Healers compared to other MMOs.
Its a point that some of you have mentioned.

For example

FFXIV: Tank does 1k, a DD does 1.4k. That is very close and the tank damage will be a big factor in the raid DPS. If the tank tweaks his gear and rotation to do 10% more (which is doable) he can even become much closer to lets say utility classes such as BRD.

Other MMO: Tank does 1k, DD does 4k. Here the bulk of the damage is from the DD classes, even if the tank goes out of his way and do 50% (which is HUGE in an MMO), he wont impact the over all raid dps.

Another issue is the fact that other MMOs empower the tank stance. Examples include access to abilities only usable in tank stance, those abilities define the tank role in raid/dungeon.

Another example is increase tank damage the more armor or vit he has (a ratio of course). This makes getting more beefy a double dip for tanks. More HP & armor = more damage. This wont make tanks do as much as DDs, but will encourage them to use tank items.

The simplicity of the game is a large part of the problem in my opinion, take the healer DPS issue as an example. The problem we have is if they don't need to cure then they either stand there and do nothing or DPS. Throw in that they can do good DPS and pressure gets put on people to fullfil a role they feel they didn't sign up for. If the healer had something else to do, such as put buffs on players or debuffs on mobs then they would be busy enough, and contributing enough without needing to DPS. Haste and Refresh from FF11 are perfect examples of this.

I'd also like to throw the trinity concept out of the window to an extent and include the 4th class, support. If all dungeons where for 8 players not 4 and one role was reserved for a true support class (what BRD should have been imo) then it would help to get out of the situation we have now where everyone is similar in DPS output.

In my opinion the game should focus more on the buffing/debuffing meta game if we are to get away from the DPS mentality that people find so frustrating.