Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

because of how duty finder works, this party comp is generally never going to happen.

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But it could and it's not fair, that in that particular circumstance BRD/MCH would be at a disadvantage. Completely game-breaking balance. (end sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

(MCH kind of does; I vote Hypercharge works on all damage types)

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You are pretty much dead on with that. By looking at a lot of battle logs comparing BRD/MCH in the cases where BRD has a higher advantage it would most definitely be offset by the Bishop Turret offering an increase to Melee damage as well, as well with the Rook Turret being able to transfer the debuff to multiple separate mobs having a "General" debuff through hypercharge would definitely be the best approach to balance.

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Originally Posted by Kelevra

Drg or no Drg, if a Bard doesn't have to use there songs that incur the penalties, they still have to operate with the gap in weapon dmg.

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Where does this keep coming from? That because BRD/MCH has lower weapon damage therefore they have lower damage?

Do Melee have lower damage than magic users because Magic Damage is higher than Physical Damage? It's just a method to control damage scaling with gear and based on the job play style. If BRD/MCH Physical Damage matched Melee Physical Damage then they would put out so much more damage than Melee could and would almost match SMN in AOE potential.

Okay on one point regarding the OP. That's any group finder system for ya and the DF instances are tuned to acknowledge this reality, so while not an ideal group the content is still more than doable.

That said since they have said no to dedicated support classes there really is no other option. The marginally lower dps is a consequence of the extensive utility the particular jobs bring. If you want the dps of a pure dps, you roll dps. It's not like its a secret that Hard and Machinist do less dps most of the time.

As for conflicts...well if you are really concerned about that lots of jobs have conflicts with buffs/debuffs, within and across other jobs if you are really interested in min/maxing.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Where does this keep coming from? That because BRD/MCH has lower weapon damage therefore they have lower damage?

Do Melee have lower damage than magic users because Magic Damage is higher than Physical Damage? It's just a method to control damage scaling with gear and based on the job play style. If BRD/MCH Physical Damage matched Melee Physical Damage then they would put out so much more damage than Melee could and would almost match SMN in AOE potential.

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I say that because with the strongest weapons currently available to us (i205 Thordan/ i210 relic/ i210 Eso weapon/ i210 Gordian), the gap in weapon dmg, considering just physical dmg dealers, widens again. Bard doesn't get an increase in WD going from the i205 Thordan Bow to any of the i210 weapons. The melee do get an increase tho....going from their i205 to any i210 weapon. Even if it's a small increase, it's still a jump in dmg for them.

But w/e. We've been back n forth on this for the last few pages. I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. You think Bard doesn't need any fine tuning/improvements. I strongly feel they do and stand by that. Most jobs have gone through their fair share of fine tuning and such since ARR launched. And Bard is overdue for the same treatment.

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Originally Posted by Kelevra

But w/e. We've been back n forth on this for the last few pages. I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. You think Bard doesn't need any fine tuning/improvements. I strongly feel they do and stand by that. Most jobs have gone through their fair share of fine tuning and such since ARR launched. And Bard is overdue for the same treatment.

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Using the current balance as a starting point, for increased damage I'd say you need submit to a decrease in utility. Even DRG which has great dps is behind MNK, monk's utility is marginal at best, you bring them for damage only. This is the way the game is balanced, we don't get awesome utility and awesome dps in the same jobs.

You also seem to be disregarding the fact that nearly every raid group wants a bard or machinist for their utility not because of their dps. A lot of groups will even put up with less than average dps out of a bard/machinist because they want them there for utility.

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Originally Posted by Kelevra

snip.

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Yeah, those i205 weapons are a bit of a strange beast for BRD/MCN that gear level must have fallen on some rounding point for what SE dictates for a stat increase. i205 was such a strange gear point to begin with considering previous gear.

I was curious where your feeling that BRD needs improvements comes from so I hope you don't mind that I looked into your FFLogs data. I can understand where you are coming from with the damage numbers you are experiencing, but on average it only leaves you in the 30th Percentile (75th Percentile is ~20% higher, with the best 95th Percentile being 40% higher). There is a lot more that BRD can bring to the table than you are getting to experience.

The Melee Rankings are in the Range of 30th Percentile -> 75th Percentile (+15%) -> 95th Percentile (+15%)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Using the current balance as a starting point, for increased damage I'd say you need submit to a decrease in utility. Even DRG which has great dps is behind MNK, monk's utility is marginal at best, you bring them for damage only. This is the way the game is balanced, we don't get awesome utility and awesome dps in the same jobs.

You also seem to be disregarding the fact that nearly every raid group wants a bard or machinist for their utility not because of their dps. A lot of groups will even put up with less than average dps out of a bard/machinist because they want them there for utility.

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1. That would be something I'd be open to.

2. I wouldn't downplay Dragon Kick. An Int debuff is something that nearly every raid group desires as well.

3. Drg has awesome dps and Battle Litany. Battle Litany is an awesome utility imo.

I was just asking my FC this morning about how is it possible that my iLv208 NIN is doing less damage than my iLv204 BRD. I was on a Dummy to kill time while waiting on DF to pop, and I noticed that on regular attacks and combos (no major buffs excluding WM on BRD and Wasp on NIN), my BRD was constantly hitting a minimum of 1k per hit while NIN was around 980 minimum. A little more info as follows:

BRD:
Bow of the Heavens
817 Crit
436 Determination
1045 Attack Power

NIN:
Antiquated Yukimitsu
684 Crit
593 Determination
1095 Attack Power

Basically, as BRD and only using WM (no Barrage, Blood for Blood, etc), each attack (Windbite, Bloodletter, blah, blah, blah) were all hitting a minimum of 1k damage per hit. As NIN and only using Wasp (no Blood for Blood, Trick Attack, etc) each attack (Aeolian Edge combos and other attacks) were all hitting a minimum of 980, sometimes dipping as low as 850 on a hit.

I don't understand it.

4 man DF content only needs 1 healer and 1 tank. The other 2 slots could be occupied by anything: dps, tanks and healers and the content can be cleared efficiently. The fact it allows 2 dps helps greatly with queues for dps, as there are a lot of them. Increasing queue times for unnecessary dps optimization in content that doesn't come close to requiring it would make no sense.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

4 man DF content only needs 1 healer and 1 tank. The other 2 slots could be occupied by anything: dps, tanks and healers and the content can be cleared efficiently. The fact it allows 2 dps helps greatly with queues for dps, as there are a lot of them. Increasing queue times for unnecessary dps optimization in content that doesn't come close to requiring it would make no sense.

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^This.

Dungeons/VA etc can be cleared by dps who only press 1 button over and over, so why waste time messing with something that works fine as is.

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Originally Posted by Kelevra

1. That would be something I'd be open to.

2. I wouldn't downplay Dragon Kick. An Int debuff is something that nearly every raid group desires as well.

3. Drg has awesome dps and Battle Litany. Battle Litany is an awesome utility imo.

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Wasn't really trying to downplay DK, but DRK has the same Int down. The only additional thing is traited Mantra which is nice, but neither is a raid dps increase like disembowel or battle litany. Yea, litany is great, and drg has slightly less personal dps (than monk) because of it.

I think they should make a more damage focused brd/mch job instead of reworking brd/mch to do more dps at the cost of their current utility.

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Originally Posted by DarkerOrange

Dungeons/VA etc can be cleared by dps who only press 1 button over and over, so why waste time messing with something that works fine as is.

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Not if EVERY dps was only pushing one button xD

Why does bard need a buff? Because somebody had a fail Duty finder with 4 bards? 4 prolly, not i200+ bards. Prolly not even main bards. Bards don't need a buff, neither do Machinists.

I spoke with soo many bards and I have noticed those that have been farming alex savage will only complain their DPS is suffering when they have to do something that interrupts their rotation. Anything that boosts the entire parties DPS was always a plus.

I am unsure why the OP is picking on bards here.

Dude, everyone else has to stop attacking when they need to get out the way and they still were above bards in the past. Adding back mobility is not going to solve anything.

Plus minuet and their new abilities really do make Bard much more flexible than in the past.

what game are u playing? because 95% of players already only play their class to 75% of their efficiency. class is irrelevent for everything outside savage

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

In reality

- While BRD/MCH has lower single target damage than other classes, the majority of content does not involve straight single target encounters, and when they do they are broken up into small burst phases with downtime in between.


BRD is roughly 7%
MCH is roughly 9%

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Made up numbers are made up.

Taking a look at the available numbers for Alexander Savage shows a different story.
I took the top 400 (if available) and averaged the dps.
BRD=1309.4
BLM=1431.8
DRG=1391.4
MCH=1182.9
MNK=1470.2
NIN=1289.9
SMN=1480.3


Average DPS among all damage dealing jobs throughout Alexander Savage is 1365.1.
That puts (JOB = #%) above/below average
BRD = -4.17%
BLM = 4.77%
DRG = 1.91%
MCH = -14.30%
MNK = 7.41%
NIN = -5.67%
SMN = 8.10%

Just looking at ranged puts an average DPS at 1351.1 and that turns into:
BRD = -3.14%
BLM = 5.80%
MCH = -13.27%
SMN = 9.12%

If you wish to take a look at how things all came out with avarages among sections and jobs, here is a quick spreadsheet that has the numbers side by side. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...icTxC4evtii_ys

Keep in mind that these percentages are against the AVERAGE DPS. Take MCH who is 13% behind the average is actually about 22.5% behind SMN or 19% behind BLM. BRD is almost 9% behind BLM.

the duty roulette can be a nightmare when pairing players together. I remember back in Final Coil, DFing T11 and getting 4 BLM combos. We tried and gave up after couple pulls, just couldn't down phase 2 fast enough before the boss does his nerve gas... DF needs a smart pairing of some type that tries to not put the same type of classes together. I rather not go in and attempt because it becomes a complete waste of time and effort.

It is interesting that bard/MCH have lower DPS because they are a support class. But yet SE claims support classes do not exist and even then, EVERY other class has support elements in them. Therefore.. every class needs their DPS nerfed, cause they support the team.

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Originally Posted by Kayko

Made up numbers are made up.

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Two things.

You are averaging all of Savage (and I'm not sure what the top 400 proves, I can tell you right now the a whole lot of the top 400 of any class aren't performing very well) which highly leans towards casters due to their A1 and A2 supremacy.

and

His 7% for BRD, 9% for MCH, the entire basis for you doing that averaging out, were in relation to Disembowel's effect on BRD/MCH, not some statistic on how far they are behind other classes.

Huh? If you know your job's dps rotation to a pretty strong degree goto any training dummy and you will see what I am talking about. That is the only true way that every job can be properly calculated for an accurate window of which dd is actually stronger. On a training dummy you will see monk/ninja/dragoon pull ahead of the bard by more then just a 8-9% margin.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Huh? If you know your job's dps rotation to a pretty strong degree goto any training dummy and you will see what I am talking about. That is the only true way that every job can be properly calculated for an accurate window of which dd is actually stronger. On a training dummy you will see monk/ninja/dragoon pull ahead of the bard by more then just a 8-9% margin.

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Not correct, since each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. In that case you are only comparing the single target potential of a class. If that was the case you could say, the only proper way to compare classes was in an AOE rotation.

You should go to an area with 3-4 Training Dummy's together and compare all classes. I can't remember exactly what it is for BRD on 4 Mobs but I think it's in the range of a +60% difference VS single target.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

You are averaging all of Savage (and I'm not sure what the top 400 proves, I can tell you right now the a whole lot of the top 400 of any class aren't performing very well) which highly leans towards casters due to their A1 and A2 supremacy.

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This kinda seems like a moot point since it's the only information available, regardless of the quality of information, it's the best collection of job/community performance available. Probably didn't need to go all the way to 400 but that helps even out all those padded dps numbers.

I find it pretty interesting, didn't seem like MCH was that far behind.

Pretty sure the number of MCH is way below the number of BRD, creating a statistical bias. I've checked DPS board for MCH/BRD last month and they were something like 5 BRD for 1 MCH on my server ..

I mean even if you take the top 400, you may not have the good sample compared to BRD since 400/500 or 400/2500 (just to illustrate my word, I don't know exactly the ratio) will not give you the skilled players with high DPS for MCH ^^

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Originally Posted by Behb

Pretty sure the number of MCH is way below the number of BRD, creating a statistical bias. I've checked DPS board for MCH/BRD last month and they were something like 5 BRD for 1 MCH on my server ..

I mean even if you take the top 400, you may not have the good sample compared to BRD since 400/500 or 400/2500 (just to illustrate my word, I don't know exactly the ratio) will not give you the skilled players with high DPS for MCH ^^

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Yeah it's a tough call on how to accurately compare that data. Look at the case of SMN on A2S and you will notice that they dominate the first 400 data points which significantly pads their overall average.

I imagine you would want to compare 75th percentiles across the board to eliminate the bias caused by the # of overall players playing each class and use the 75th percentile to get rid of the really high (orchestrated parses) and really low values.

While it appears to be a lot of work done as well, I'm not sure about the credibility of it. Just a quick look at A1S NIN VS BRD there seems to be something off as BRD NA is averaged much lower than NIN despite having higher averages, not to mention that out of 400 data points only 100 are below 1133 DPS to a floor of 1087, so it's pretty much impossible for their average to be that low.

(maybe this data was collected a while ago?)

brds dps is better when played at lower ping and cat like hawk eye reflexes on procs. as for mch can't really speak for them but apparently they are similar.

if rng is kind you get tones of procs if not your dps lowers alot. same if you miss a proc it requires a real focussed playstyle.

i prefer melee cause its simpler and less rng pain and a more straight foward playstyle.

I'll concede that smn numbers are way padded due to a2. They are no where near those numbers in other fights lol. Honestly could probably just look at a1, a3 and thordan. A2 being aoe-fest and a4 with ppl sacrificing themselves seems like you'd get skewed results.

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Originally Posted by mb52139

It is interesting that bard/MCH have lower DPS because they are a support class. But yet SE claims support classes do not exist and even then, EVERY other class has support elements in them. Therefore.. every class needs their DPS nerfed, cause they support the team.

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I don't think the answer is to start nerfing the other jobs, but to start making adjustements to Bard...cuz they rly can be better w/o becoming too '2.0 op.'

Things like Foe's Requiem actually affecting Windbite and Flaming Arrow, allowing Minuet to further augment certain weaponskills/abilities (Bite durations extended to 21 or 24secs, allowing Bard to ignore dmg penalties from Ballad/Paeon when Battle Voice (reducing the recast on this would be good too) is used along with it, giving Sidewinder a third potency increase thru use of Flaming Arrow, etc.), reworking the River of Blood trait so that Rain of Death/Bloodletter would also increase in potency (only twice) when reset by either 'Bite and wasn't on cooldown (if on cooldown...the timer would just simply reset as it already does now), etc.

I was also thinking about Bards being introduced to positionals for E. Arrow (rear), Heavy Shot (rear), and Straight Shot (flank/side)...but, probably would have to do away with the Rng in Mch main combo if that were to happen tho.

Actually single target is what ultimately matters. Aoe damage is nice for moving fights along but single target dps is still the king of mmo standards.

I'm confused...bard does do damage lol...the bard i run with is 1300+ a1s and 1200+ A3S...not entirely sure what no damage means exactly. MCH has lower sustain but can still be as high, as well as raising both mele + both tanks dps

Just another reason IMO they should just make a support role and break the trio (tank dPS healer)

Alex is ripe with two fights catered to double dotting which does help quite a bit with giving the bard a perception of being a strong dps.

There's absolutely no reason not to double DoT when you can. And if a job can take advantage of it, they are objectively good in that fight.

And where do bards and machinist compare with single target dps vs other dps?

I have a feeling that they are doing soft adjustments between classes to rebalance some as dps centric or support centric, in an attempt to ease us into an eventual 4th role in parties: tank, healer, dps, hybrid(support).

A party of 4 would have one of each, party of 8, 2 of each.

I would like to ask, Who brings 4BRDS to Savage to begin with? And if you're talking about normal alex, DPS should be a non-issue right now. I've seen a BRD pull 1300+ DPS in DF(Keep in mind he was being buffed by ast and probably some other stuff) But still. Stop acting like 4x BRD can't clear content. Thats just silly.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

I would like to ask, Who brings 4BRDS to Savage to begin with? And if you're talking about normal alex, DPS should be a non-issue right now. I've seen a BRD pull 1300+ DPS in DF(Keep in mind he was being buffed by ast and probably some other stuff) But still. Stop acting like 4x BRD can't clear content. Thats just silly.

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I believe you miss the point. The point is bard dps is lower overall then other dps jobs. Both a machinist and a bard should be able to be brought to savage at the same time based on their dps abilities but are not because they are 10-15% below every other labeled dps. Machinist even more so after the burst ends.

The only way I would support having BRD/MCH and maybe even AST as support. Is if they actually made abilities/buffs/debuffs/enfeebles that actually contributed greatly to a fight (And mobs didn't get immune to in 2-3 uses...). In it's current form, the only thing that makes BRD/MCH "Support" is a resource regeneration ability that is niche purposed, rarely used, and even discouraged to be used frequently in fears of nerfing damage output. Not only do they punish the class for having these abilities, but they also punish the class for using them.... That's NOT a support class. I'm all for making it one though, but first they need to embrace it as such, and actually give it the utility by picking a direction, rather then trying to make it competitive but artificially not making it competitive on purpose. YES you can min/max your abilities and get some awesome DPS all you Raider BRD/MCH out there but you'll never be better or even equal to a MNK, DRG, SMN, BLM of equal Skill and practice. That's just a fact.

The bottom line here is if you're going to make it a support then give it support abilities that ACTUALLY MATTER and can do it's "OK DPS" that it does now.

If you're going to make it a DPS with a non-essential resource regeneration (when most classes have their own and if are good should be able to manage their own resources with out needing your help outside of Savage Content) take off the stupid Artificial training wheels that hold the DPS back, and make it actually worth while (taking off % proc chance for next rotation step, making it a higher % at the least, take off the restrictions on Skill Speed (ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT IT ON THE FREAKING RELIC! IT BETTER BE WORTH A DAMN!.... slow breaths... deep breaths.... ok) so you can actually diversify gear rather then Dex, Crit and Det...).

Consider this, when was the last time MCH got lip for not using Dismantle/Rend Mind for -5% Boss DPS or AST for Disable's -10% DPS? When I use them most of the party doesn't even notice and if anything I'll get a "Wow.... nobody uses that" or "Huh... why did that hit lower then usual?" and even that is rare... When was the last time that Defense/Resistances actually mattered? Even for tanks it's pretty much a non-factor when selecting End Game gear... And the answer is never, because SE made these things meaningless so that "All classes can be equal!" which are the whole point of the classes identity and ironically has made the classes that depend on these being useful... useless...

Also, if you think "BRD/MCH is great, it doesn't need a buff" please tell me how many PF's you''ll stick with when you see 3-4 BRD/MCH over 3-4 BLM/SMN or MNK/DRG. I can tell you with out even knowing most of you, 90% of you would either doubt the comp enough to drop after 1-2 wipes, drop the group on the onset or plead for someone to trade up roles. While probably about 20% of you would react that way to the 3-4 BLM/SMN or MNK/DRG.

Lilith is scary lady.... uhm I nominate her for thread representitive.

i agree with lilith , BRD (MCH) are doing lower dmg because the have "support" (something i still dont agree , since all the dps but BLM have some kind of support , +10% dmg , crit buff , battle rez, e4e, virus .... ) , support that in 2.0 was "OK" , but in 3.0 is rarely used....outside FOE if u are bard , and -5% physical dmg if u are MCH....

come 3.0 BRD gained CASTING TIMES while staying the same dps wise

2.0 brd did 80% (~) of the melee dps while being the most mobile job , 3.0 we still do the same % dmg but we have casting times! (WM boost dmg by 30%!!!!) yet we are in the same spot as 2.0 , but with casting times.... sometimes i wonder wth , all the bards were tricked into thinking that WM was the answer to keep up with at least mages dps....it has a DPS % boost and casting times so it makes sense, then u realize that ...nope... all that % dmg and casting times was a hidden nerf to mobility w/o gaining any dmg at all....

oh and dont forget animations , look how awesome DRG, SMN ....feel now , now lock back at BRD...now lock back at SMN , now back at BRD.... :( , we even share animation with DRK (their aoe drain has the same animation as sidewinder) ...feels like SE didnt even care ...and rushed the brd in 3.0 who needs unique animations for that loljob?... + Wardens Paeon /yawn ...3.0 has been " a slap in the face" :p hahaha

p.d WEAPON DAMAGE BUFF please ? while i love that 205 and 210 weapons have the same WD ...is a bit disheartening.

Non-offensive "utility" like TP/MP regen, virus etc. rarely if ever provide benefit in stacking, and with the limit break restrictions coming back there's even more reason not to be concerned that groups might just stop bringing role x if role y deals too much damage.

So, I think having BRD/MCH do around the same dummy contributed-DPS as SMN would be about appropriate, as they're all quasi-mobile (BRD the least so) caster classes.... but the thing is, BRD/MCH kind of already -are- competitive with SMN when you add in that ~1%/0.75% Foe/Hyper contribution to raid DPS. So I begrudgingly tell myself that things are kind of okay in the way that NIN doing less raw DPS is okay? Though the reliance on DRG for 8% of our damage will never not be stupid.

You could make the case that SMN's single target damage is too low to begin with, and that all three should be brought up a bit (or BLM brought a bit down in tandem with the Astral Fire loosening). And/or that the gap between melee cDPS and ranged cDPS on the whole is bigger than it needs to be. But those are separate/broader lines of argument.