Simple fixes for Astrologian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

AST/AST wouldn't be the best option because their card buffs overwrite each other and they do least damage. They also lack Virus and E4E. Noct/SCH wouldn't be good either because shields overwrite each other.

---

Not to mention 3.2 is changing up LB generation again to discourage job stacking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

Because Noct Sect is garbage in this meta.

---

If you want to make a meta that isn't utterly garbage for Noct, have fun trying to convince the raid developers/designers to make a complete 180 shift.
In other words, no more:

• Small (circular) arenas
• High amounts of medium-range clustering (within Medica 2 range or Medica/Helios/Succor range)
• High amounts of low-damage
• High amounts of utterly predictable damage
• Large rate of being able to heal spotdamage using AoE healing as opposed to single target
• 'Buster, cleave, tons of AoE' patterns
• Little amount of unpredictable spotdamage
• Little movement
• Low amounts of interruption/high casting rate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Healing A1S through A3S for a few weeks as astro, then maxing out my white mage and doing it as that with the same gear (minus pants that were actually 20 item levels worse) white mage was SOOOOOO much easier. White mage in general has such an easy time healing in savage with the current gear it's crazy, I dunno how anyone can think ast can compete with whm's healing ability. Even the regens do slightly more from my testing...

---

I find A1S way easier as AST since Synastry seems to be tailormade for that fight. Ain't even that bad on A2S either. Plus I cry when I miss Aero 3 anyway. Also, without Divine Seal Aspected Benefic is stronger than Regen, but consumes more mana if Regen's healing is all you need. Guess I'm really just crazy for prefering my AST, huh.

Aspected Bene has a total potency of 1030 where as Regen is 1050. Regen is also cheaper than A. Bene. I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that an unbuffed A.Bene is stronger than an unbuffed Regen.

150 * 7 ticks is 1050 potency (Regen)
vs.
140 * 6 ticks + 190 is 1030 (A. Bene)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

Aspected Bene has a total potency of 1030 where as Regen is 1050. Regen is also cheaper than A. Bene. I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that an unbuffed A.Bene is stronger than an unbuffed Regen.

150 * 7 ticks is 1050 potency (Regen)
vs.
140 * 6 ticks + 190 is 1030 (A. Bene)

---

Diurnal Aspected Benefic provides more Potency in a shorter time frame. This can be shown in two ways:

Diurnal Aspected Benefic = 190 + (140 * 6 ticks) = 1,030 Potency in 18 seconds
Regen = 150 * 6 ticks = 900 Potency in 18 seconds.

If you math over the course of 126s (6 applications of Regen and 7 Applications of Aspected Benefic), you get the following potency:

Diurnal Aspected Benefic = 1,030 Potency * 7 Applications = 7,210 Potency @ 4,949MP
Regen = 1,050 Potency * 6 Applications = 6,300 Potency @ 3,714 MP

Therefore, Diurnal Aspected Benefic is more potent over the same period of time as Regen (assuming 100% uptime on both) at the cost of more MP and one more GCD use.

So you're comparing the potencies over the time period of which A. Bene ends instead of the potency per GCD. In that case, I guess A. Bene win since you're reapplying the "Regen" sooner and getting the full benefit sooner than WHMs Regen. I find myself siding with Miunih's reasoning on why he prefers Regen over Aspected Bene. I'd rather spend the extra GCD casting another DPS spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

So you're comparing the potencies over the time period of which A. Bene ends instead of the potency per GCD. In that case, I guess A. Bene win since you're reapplying the "Regen" sooner and getting the full benefit sooner than WHMs Regen. I find myself siding with Miunih's reasoning on why he prefers Regen over Aspected Bene. I'd rather spend the extra GCD casting another DPS spell.

---

Indeed, when comparing spells objectively you have to consider all aspects of what those spells do to judge appropriately. Initially I was similar in my thinking that Regen > Aspected Benefic but once I began to realize that Aspected Benefic's front loaded heal basically made it more potent over the same period of time, it started to adjust my perception of the spell in a more favorable light. It showcases the "same yet different" aspect of the two spells.

AST = higher potency
WHM = better mana efficiency

And it's just a matter of the healer adjusting to the way their kit is designed and finding out which they prefer. I didn't actually do the time analysis until that post though and losing only 1 GCD over the course of two minutes makes me a bit more assured about the GCD loss.

I will admit that it's a fairly large pet peeve of mine when someone claims "Regen > Aspected Benefic" without considering the "over a period of time" variable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AzureFlare

I find A1S way easier as AST since Synastry seems to be tailormade for that fight. Ain't even that bad on A2S either. Plus I cry when I miss Aero 3 anyway. Also, without Divine Seal Aspected Benefic is stronger than Regen, but consumes more mana if Regen's healing is all you need. Guess I'm really just crazy for prefering my AST, huh.

---

Synastry is nice but there wasn't a single time I needed it in that fight, I just used it for the divine seal-alike buff.
Only time I could think you would need it is if you were soloing both preys for some reason, though even then white mage could do that easily with a cure II on one person and a tetra on the other person.

Having preferences is fine...but when it comes to raw numbers, white mage beats it in a long shot. But AST has way more utility, so there's that.

Also: I thought of something else, MAKE DIURNAL STANCE GIVE A MIND BUFF DAMMIT. Piety is fine on noct since you'll only use noct with a white mage on your team, but no mind buff on scholar/ast composition is really sad.

While I'm aware that it reaches its full potency faster than Regen, my biggest issue with the spell is its slightly weaker potency per GCD for a higher MP cost. Based off of your math over the course of 126 seconds, A. Bene (assuming full uptime) equates to 1.46 potency per MP while Regen is sitting at 1.70 I feel like I'm blowing way too much mp over the course of a fight maintaining the regen. 1200 MP over 2 minutes into a fight is a lot of MP considering how long A3S and A4S go on for (10 ~ 11 minutes for the average group).

I don't feel like the MP cost justifies its total potency even if it reaches its maximum potential sooner than Regen. While I do prefer Regen for its mana efficiency and duration, I also do not think the initial heal justifies the MP cost due to the increased potential to overheal on pull and on phase transitions.

That said, I make the spell work and it is not a bad spell by any means. Thank you for your insight and evaluation on the two spells, Ghishlain. I've always liked your posts :).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

I don't feel like the MP cost justifies its total potency even if it reaches its maximum potential sooner than Regen. While I do prefer Regen for its mana efficiency and duration, I also do not think the initial heal justifies the MP cost due to the increased potential to overheal on pull and on phase transitions.

---

I'll just point it out that every other healing spell Astrologian has is cheaper than White Mage.

Also, what prevents you from using Aspected Benefic after the tank takes a bit of damage or to use it to top off the tank after a Benefic to suppress the overhealing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

While I'm aware that it reaches its full potency faster than Regen, my biggest issue with the spell is its slightly weaker potency per GCD for a higher MP cost. Based off of your math over the course of 126 seconds, A. Bene (assuming full uptime) equates to 1.46 potency per MP while Regen is sitting at 1.70 I feel like I'm blowing way too much mp over the course of a fight maintaining the regen. 1200 MP over 2 minutes into a fight is a lot of MP considering how long A3S and A4S go on for (10 ~ 11 minutes for the average group).

I don't feel like the MP cost justifies its total potency even if it reaches its maximum potential sooner than Regen. While I do prefer Regen for its mana efficiency and duration, I also do not think the initial heal justifies the MP cost due to the increased potential to overheal on pull and on phase transitions.

That said, I make the spell work and it is not a bad spell by any means. Thank you for your insight and evaluation on the two spells, Ghishlain. I've always liked your posts :).

---

You're very welcome :) Glad to be of help.

If you want a little further insight, if you chose to play Aspected Benefic like WHM Regen (reapply it every 7 ticks instead of 6), you would regain the one GCD and be down only 528MP and 120 Potency over those two minutes. I'll leave it to each individual poster to determine if they feel better about playing AST like that or not.

And as Lyrica says, take into account that outside of Aspected Benefic, every single healing spell in the AST arsenal is cheaper on MP compared to a WHM. Benefic is an insane 20% cheaper than Cure / Physick and I do believe Aspected Helios has a similar MP efficiency to Medica II. Uou're probably making up the MP elsewhere. And yeah, just delay the application of Aspected Benefic on a pull and you'll be golden. Small nuances that differentiate a WHM playstyle to AST playstyle :)

Maintaining a high cleric stance uptime/lessening the time frame I'm "locked" in cleric.

Also, Medica II has a slightly higher potency per mana compared to Aspected Helios.

Freecure procs at 15% effectively bring cure I's potency per mana to 1.06 from 0.9 (assuming you take advantage of every proc). Bene is at 1.13 for comparisons sake.

Regen/A. Bene was already beaten to death.

Helios and Bene II are infact more mana efficient than their counterparts but in circumstances that you're able to use Cure III on the entire group, it is more mana efficient than Medica and Helios.

And then there's the party MND buff.

Edit: I'll play around with the suggestions regarding A. Bene and see if it'll mesh with my playstyle in A3S.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Synastry is nice but there wasn't a single time I needed it in that fight, I just used it for the divine seal-alike buff.
Only time I could think you would need it is if you were soloing both preys for some reason, though even then white mage could do that easily with a cure II on one person and a tetra on the other person.

---

Thank god you didn't need it. If you did, it would mean other jobs couldn't heal that fight since AST is the only job that has anything like Synastry.

During A1S weeks 1-3, the Prey mechanic was hard to heal because of low HP/defense. The challenge wasn't keeping the prey target alive, but keeping your tank topped to wait for the buster that comes right after. WHM/SCH had to burn a lot of things to do that, while AST only had to use Synastry on the assigned tank and hit the prey target with two Benefic II - which meant the tank would get healed by a full Benefic II since Synastry would heal the tank for half the amount back then. A stressful mechanic was insanely simple for AST, and that's what people are talking about.

People have got to stop dismissing all AST's strenghts with "oh but WHM/SCH can so it with [...]". Of course they can! They're supposed to.

Assize and Asylum are not needed for anything, but they help; same goes for Indomitability. They're strong in several contexts, and such is the AST toolkit. People just choose to undermine the AST one, I have absolutely no idea why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

Stuff

---

A few months ago by now I tossed it in a spreadsheet and Aspected Benefic's power comes from the combination of shorter time frame, lower mana cost in filler spells and Diurnal passively being faster. Basically, if you need to make up the difference in potency between Aspected Benefic and Regen, you'll either lose a lot of globals while casting Cure, or most of your mana gain (and still globals!) casting Cure 2. Essentially, if an AST still has to cast Benefic to add onto the required potency, that difference becomes significantly smaller and smaller to the point Aspected Benefic ends up more powerful. Add a time constraint to it and it shifts towards Aspected Benefic even more so.

Though the tables did assume that for one, you have 'perfect uptime' on both spells and two, you make full use of Aspected Benefic's upfront heal. Also, the calculations were done without any buffs/abilities and assuming that WHM's passive MND bonus and Diurnal Sect's attackspeed bonus would cancel each other out. I can't remember if I factored in Freecure either.

Basically Aspected Benefic in Diurnal Sect is the spell that frees up most of AST's globals to make up for what it can't do/doesn't have compared to a WHM. The others being CU, which is very fight-dependent, and Essential Dignity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

snip.

---

Yes but AST was also nearly unplayable in savage at the time, so that's rather moot. I think you misunderstood my point...

It's a nice tool, but it really doesn't help THAT much. Especially with the mere 20 second duration. Maybe that is better wording?

Most powerful single target cool down in game...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Yes but AST was also nearly unplayable in savage at the time, so that's rather moot. I think you misunderstood my point...

It's a nice tool, but it really doesn't help THAT much. Especially with the mere 20 second duration. Maybe that is better wording?

---

Nearly unplayable is a gross exaggeration. Most people weren't even popping ASTs cooldowns because they were using WHM/SCH with AST, and wondered why the strats weren't working. There was a thread about it and some people were shocked that you could use Synastry to heal prey mechanics, because most people didn't even bother to study the job properly. Nevertheless, people cleared A1S and A2S week 1; most people gave up AST then, so A3S and A4S AST progression got lost in the middle of the WHM/SCH thing. The nerfed state of AST was only part of the issue, since most of the toolkit got only minor political buffs; people who didn't bother to learn the job were the actual problem.