Raiding and Teamspeak.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I know this may be seen as insensitive and I apologize, but I seriously don't understand online voice stigma.

I personally don't see it as any different than talking to somebody in real life. Do the people who are too shy for VOIP just never talk to people IRL either?

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Umm yup. If a person is shy they shy both in and out of game and find communicating by typing much easier. I am one of those, I don't do voice chat. I am very shy in real life and find it hard to talk to new people in person or on the phone, voice chat would be the same.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

It's a great tool, especially for progression. It's not *necessary*, but it does help a ton.

I will say this, if a group you join is using voice and you are not, you better not mess up a lot (especially on things often called-out, like who is stunning which add in A3S.)

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Related to this, I don't think anyone should feel shocked or or be upset over joining an existing group that uses voice chat, and expects you to use voice chat, if they're using it as a key element for their group. Yes, they could set up macros to call out things in party chat they would normally say over TS, but which makes more sense: 7 people creating callout macros or 1 person setting up voice chat? It's not so much a matter "Is voice chat necessary for this fight?" and more a matter of "Should the new person conform to the existing group, or should the group conform to the new person?"

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I know this may be seen as insensitive and I apologize, but I seriously don't understand online voice stigma.

I personally don't see it as any different than talking to somebody in real life. Do the people who are too shy for VOIP just never talk to people IRL either?

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Many see voice communication as breaking a notable social barrier and for those with social anxiety it can be very taxing on them.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

Many see voice communication as breaking a notable social barrier and for those with social anxiety it can be very taxing on them.

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Social anxiety sure, that's easy to see, but I see this from people who don't even have such things. That's the kind of people I don't understand. Especially when you're playing a game that is literally made to be social..

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I know this may be seen as insensitive and I apologize, but I seriously don't understand online voice stigma.

I personally don't see it as any different than talking to somebody in real life. Do the people who are too shy for VOIP just never talk to people IRL either?

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Some people aren't social butterflies that want to essentially sit in a room of strangers and talk during what is in a lot of cases a stressful situation. If you like listening to a bunch of people chit chat in your ear then that's fine, but it shouldn't be so hard for you to understand why other people might not like it. Why do you see it as a stigma instead of a preference?

For me it's distracting, unnecessary and annoying listening to people bicker, shout and call out things that I already saw for myself well before it was announced. I'd rather just listen to my game and pay attention. Voice chat wasn't a thing in online games for a long time. Somehow people still managed to figure things out, work together, progress and communicate. :)

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Originally Posted by Savvy

Some people aren't social butterflies that want to essentially sit in a room of strangers and talk during what is in a lot of cases a stressful situation. If you like listening to a bunch of people chit chat in your ear then that's fine, but it shouldn't be so hard for you to understand why other people might not like it. Why do you see it as a stigma instead of a preference?

For me it's distracting, unnecessary and annoying listening to people bicker, shout and call out things that I already saw for myself well before it was announced. I'd rather just listen to my game and pay attention. Voice chat wasn't a thing in online games for a long time. Somehow people still managed to figure things out, work together, progress and communicate. :)

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I would hardly call it distracting. If you can see every last detail and mechanic at all times and you literally never miss anything that is happening, sure, you might not need it as a DPS, but no one is perfect and no such player exists, and ensuring no mistakes are made is pretty good.

Plus it helps people work together, saying "I'll take this add" or "I'll heal so and so, you get so and so", just as an example. There's nothing bad about this.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Social anxiety sure, that's easy to see, but I see this from people who don't even have such things. That's the kind of people I don't understand. Especially when you're playing a game that is literally made to be social..

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I'm not sure if you know anyone with phone anxiety.
I...well I do mind talking to people face to face, but I'd rather do that, or text/type chat, or ANYTHING ELSE other than talk to someone on the phone.
Voice chat to me is literally the same thing. It's extremely stressful. Is it a personal problem? Sure it is, but that doesn't make it any easier to do.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

Many see voice communication as breaking a notable social barrier and for those with social anxiety it can be very taxing on them.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Social anxiety sure, that's easy to see, but I see this from people who don't even have such things. That's the kind of people I don't understand. Especially when you're playing a game that is literally made to be social..

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As someone with social anxiety, I understand that that is a limitation I need to get passed if I want to play an MMO and cooperate with other people. I've never raided in any other MMO I've played, precisely because I feared interacting with people on anything more than the most casual basis. When I decided I wanted to raid in this game, I realized I needed to suck it up and overcome my fears if I wanted to do this content.

FFXIV is an easy game for someone with social anxiety to play for 90% of the content, but if you want to do the 10% of the game that does require interacting with people for more than 30 minutes at a time, then either realize that content is not for you, or attempt to overcome your own issues. Don't expect other people to do it for you.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I would hardly call it distracting. If you can see every last detail and mechanic at all times and you literally never miss anything that is happening, sure, you might not need it as a DPS, but no one is perfect and no such player exists, and ensuring no mistakes are made is pretty good.

Plus it helps people work together, saying "I'll take this add" or "I'll heal so and so, you get so and so", just as an example. There's nothing bad about this.

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That's your opinion, and your preference, and if it helps you and the other people you're in voice chat with to play better, or to have a better time then use it. But you are stating what you feel and think as though that's just how things are for everyone, and that is some serious generalizing. What is for you isn't for everyone, and what is for me isn't for you. This applies to everything in life so how is this really hard for you to wrap your head around?

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I'm not sure if you know anyone with phone anxiety.
I...well I do mind talking to people face to face, but I'd rather do that, or text/type chat, or ANYTHING ELSE other than talk to someone on the phone.
Voice chat to me is literally the same thing. It's extremely stressful. Is it a personal problem? Sure it is, but that doesn't make it any easier to do.

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i have the same thing :O

i almost never use a telephone (traveling for example to the dentist just to make an appointment for the next day instead of using the phone). voice chat with a whole group of people is even worse

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Originally Posted by Morbid

Someone already stated getting to know others on a whole nother level...

Well what if I don't want to? I can agree that having voice comms is 'easier' for communication since you just speak instead of typing but I still don't/won't qualify it as some necessity. You can play and progress in this game perfectly fine without it. Like many of us have been doing for years in MMO's..

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But wait? I thought this game was a social game? Your suppose to make friends! Not be a lone wolf dsahsdsljsd s #glamourtruegame asfjsfjkldfh
/sarcasm
Seriously though, I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

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I have played more MMO's than I can count ever since I was little, there was never pressure or a need for voice chat, because we didn't have it back then in any mainstream kind of way. We communicated and we worked together and people had to play better and smarter and have each other's back. You shouldn't have to suck up the way you feel just because all of the kids who play this game think that it's a requirement that you jump on mic and tell them to look out for this mechanic that you could have memorized by now, or give me mana song and I'll tell you when to end it so that you don't have to use your eyes and look at my mana bar.

You aren't the problem, being in voice chat or not shouldn't be the problem and I don't believe it's a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

but if you want to do the 10% of the game that does require interacting with people for more than 30 minutes at a time, then either realize that content is not for you, or attempt to overcome your own issues. Don't expect other people to do it for you.

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I think this is the biggest part of all this. 90% of the people replying in this thread don't even raid, and yet that is the title of this Thread.

Sure you shouldn't have to get on chat for a casual DF dungeon or AFKing in Void Ark for you upgrade items, but if you need to discuss strats in bleeding edge progression, you should at least be set up to listen in, even if you're not comfortable with speaking.

I am starting to think that there is not really a Stigma for VOIP at all as no one I've asked on my server has heard of this either. It's just that because it's an available tool, Raid groups are using it to further their success rate of completion. People joining these groups who refuse to participate in the VOIP service are not getting kicked for that reason, but merely due to failing mechanics and/or their job and blaming the fact they wouldn't use VOIP as a crutch to make themselves feel better about their skill? maybe... (what else could it be right?)

I don't participate in voice chat, and I won't... because i don't want to hear your voice. I want to hear your character's voice.

And I don't want you to hear my voice; I want you to hear my character's voice.

The escapism of the fantasy realm is absolutely more important for me, than that last onze of performance in the raid group.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I am starting to think that there is not really a Stigma for VOIP at all as no one I've asked on my server has heard of this either. It's just that because it's an available tool, Raid groups are using it to further their success rate of completion. People joining these groups who refuse to participate in the VOIP service are not getting kicked for that reason, but merely due to failing mechanics and/or their job and blaming the fact they wouldn't use VOIP as a crutch to make themselves feel better about their skill? maybe... (what else could it be right?)

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i was kicked out of my raidgroup without failing mechanics or at my job. that was back in second coil. we progressed T6 for weeks, then T7. we cleared T7 and then they kicked me before we startet with progressing T8 because i could fail without TS... cleared it a few weeks later with another group without voice chat after 2 days progression o.ô

then i had a few month without a raidgroup. not easy to find a non-voice chat group. but i did. we cleared T9 after 6 days, T10 after 4 days, T11 after 2 days and T12 after 6 days progression. but while the T13 progression the group disbands because of two of them hated each other and another 2 people left... and it is really difficult to find new people for a non-voice chat raidgroup :x however, we were 4 people from that group and some other friends and we cleared T13.

since then i am not raiding anymore. it is possible and we were fast in final coil. but it is way to difficult to find 7 other non-voice chat people and it is also nearly impossible to replace someone.

and the mix up with some people with voice chat and some without doesn't work well.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

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No you don't have to communicate it's down if everyone is paying attention and you play together enough to know how each other plays. There was a time of raiding and gaming without voice chat. You're not showing at all that it's necessary or required.

As you and I both said it makes things easier. It's easier for a Healer to respond with Swiftcast down, yet even on voice chat I've seen healers agree to raise 1st or raise 2nd, and then both proceed to raise the same person at the same time with swiftcast.

It's easier to be able to know certain situations are happening with voice chat. But it's not a requirement for you to know.

1 person just died. Swiftcast 1 down, another person died fairly soon after swiftcast 2 down. If the summoner had been looking at the party and not tunnel visioning they could realize right away the healers would have to hard raise the third person. If 2 people drop that fast it's hard not to notice. If the Healers double up on raises it's less obvious but if someone has been dead for a period of time or you notice that casting bar on the party list that says Raise, Resurrection, Ascend, it should be obvious they don't have swiftcast or they wouldn't be hardcasting.

Yes voice chat is easier, but things are 100% doable without it. It just makes things easier.*and sometimes more fun

I bet most people here that act as if voice chat is a crutch haven't even cleared A3S.

I never use voice chat, heck those are japanese people and I can't speak or read any japanese language (only basic) lol. I only learn mechanic by do it YOLO + learn what to do next step of it.

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Originally Posted by Destomius

I bet most people here that act as if voice chat is a crutch haven't even cleared A3S.

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Man imagine what MMO players did before there was Duty Finders, Party Finders, YouTube guides and TS/Mumble VOIP.

It's like 90% of the people who think voice comm is a necessity never played a true traditional MMO...

/end overblanketing generalization post.

Always funny seeing.. "I bet such-n-such never even cleared *highest content you actually managed* before.. pfft scrubz..

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Originally Posted by Morbid

Man imagine what MMO players did before there was Duty Finders, Party Finders, YouTube guides and TS/Mumble VOIP.

It's like 90% of the people who think voice comm is a necessity never played a true traditional MMO...

/end overblanketing generalization post.

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I've been gaming online since the dawn of text gaming, which is longer than a lot of our players have been alive.

The fact that we didn't have voice chat back then doesn't make it any less useful now. xD

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I've been gaming online since the dawn of text gaming, which is longer than a lot of our players have been alive.

The fact that we didn't have voice chat back then doesn't make it any less useful now. xD

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Usefulness is a yes... necessity is a no.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i was kicked out of my raidgroup without failing mechanics or at my job......

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Sorry, not to center you out, but you do have an open Lodestone profile.


The Binds that Tie I
07/05/2014 - July

First Coil Nerf/Echo - Mar 2014 - First Coil Echo


In Another Bind I
01/23/2015 - January

Second Coil Nerf/Echo - Nov 2014 - Second Coil Echo


Out of a Bind I
06/07/2015 - June

Apr 2015 - Final Coil Nerf/Echo

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It appears that you were progressing Endgame while over geared and with Echo and raid nerfs, so VOIP would probably not have been all that needed considering people were 4 manning this content at that point.

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Edited: Sorry at work atm so I didn't get to follow up with where I was going with all that.

- Post Nerf, over geared content, existing strategies for a while - Is VOIP the "big bad man"? It's probably due to having a terrible attitude.

Voice chat is not needed for beating stuff.

If you say yes, then explain why most of the people on this game have already beat most of the content.

Half without half with, only those who need their programs need it to win a fight.

the good players don't.

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Originally Posted by Morbid

Man imagine what MMO players did before there was Duty Finders, Party Finders, YouTube guides and TS/Mumble VOIP.

It's like 90% of the people who think voice comm is a necessity never played a true traditional MMO...

/end overblanketing generalization post.

Always funny seeing.. "I bet such-n-such never even cleared *highest content you actually managed* before.. pfft scrubz..

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You're sounding like the old man that always says "back in my day."

On topic voip helps. Some people like using it some people don't. Lets not start labelling people who don't use voip/do use voip.

@Zeonx Of course most people have cleared most stuff. The game is aimed at the casual market. Also with unsynched now in the game there is no skill at all in clearing final coil. If you want to talk about clear numbers talk about Alexander savage. I can say with 100% not "most" have cleared that.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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Proves nothing, some people just didn't do it, cousin didn't do coil or other stuff at all he hasn't even touched Extremes, he says there is no point in that stuff when content is only for story and the gear is outdated.

Says extremes the same thing, go there to fight for a mount and only spam it till you get one. He chose not to do coil and extremes not cause he couldn't do it but because he just didn't wanna deal with everyone leaving because they cant.

Extremes and coil don't prove that people are good, cause most of everyone probably paid or had a friend help them.

If you had a set party even worse because they could carry you or anyone else.

So nerfing doesn't matter same thing as what I said about being carried.

Now meeting someone in duty finder and finishing it, those are the good players, they stick it out even when they wipe until they win.

Don't need voice chat, don't need have practice, they watch video go in on what they have to complete it.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Proves nothing, some people just didn't do it, cousin didn't do coil or other stuff at all he hasn't even touched Extremes, he says there is no point in that stuff when content is only for story and the gear is outdated.

Says extremes the same thing, go there to fight for a mount and only spam it till you get one. He chose not to do coil and extremes not cause he couldn't do it but because he just didn't wanna deal with everyone leaving because they cant.

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In all fairness it does indeed prove stuff. Anyone can clear final coil now. You don't even need to communicate so obviously people don't need voip now for it lol.

Im sorry but the endgame raid is literally the only thing that shows player skill. As said before most of the content outside it can be cleared by anyone.

And your just helping his point saying most either paid or had a friend help them. Of course if you get a carry you don't need voip lol.


" those are the good players" oh ok I see how this post is going now. So you're saying just cause people use voip they are bad and can never be good players. Got it.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

In all fairness it does indeed prove stuff. Anyone can clear final coil now. You don't even need to communicate so obviously people don't need voip now for it lol.

Im sorry but the endgame raid is literally the only thing that shows player skill. As said before most of the content outside it can be cleared by anyone.

And your just helping his point saying most either paid or had a friend help them. Of course if you get a carry you don't need voip lol.

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Now days yeah because of the nerf.

Though saying back before the nerf it was basically the same thing, I seen people in PF selling the runs, though if they knew the run very well after beating it don't you think they wouldn't even need the voice?

Think my cousin did coil up to twintania and decided the gear really didn't make a difference to keep doing those runs, while he finished up his stuff as he suspected a update rolled in with new gear obsoleting the whole thing.

That's the real problem, gear seems to update too fast, you cannot complete a full set without another rolling over it and once you get to a nice level you can get the new stuff.


Though I still don't think voice is really needed to beat content if you are good at your job and know what you are doing, though I agree for those who don't might be helpful to them I guess but that isn't helping them learn anything if you have to tell them what to do. Isn't that the same as being carried?

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Now days yeah because of the nerf.

Though saying back before the nerf it was basically the same thing, I seen people in PF selling the runs, though if they knew the run very well after beating it don't you think they wouldn't even need the voice?

Think my cousin did coil up to twintania and decided the gear really didn't make a difference to keep doing those runs, while he finished up his stuff as he suspected a update rolled in with new gear obsoleting the whole thing.

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Read the first line you just said..."If they knew the run very well after beating it." They know the fight, they have beaten it before, of course they wont need voip then lol.

Voip is not needed. Does it help tho? for most yes. Some also find it nice being able to talk to their static instead of typing, some don't. We can't just say the group that don't like voip are the " good players".

Also on your edited points:

I have no idea why the topic of gear is coming into a thread about VOIP that doesn't mean anything.

Voice chat isn't needed for anything, just like typing on your keyboard isn't. Also telling them what they have to do? no one who is carrying people or selling runs will invite the person into voip.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Proves nothing, some people just didn't do it, cousin didn't do coil or other stuff at all he hasn't even touched Extremes, he says there is no point in that stuff when content is only for story and the gear is outdated.

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It's the context of this thread so of course it proves something. It gives the OP the wrong impression when people with terrible attitudes come into their thread spouting that they should just do the bare minimum and then complain that others wont carry them.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

It's the context of this thread so of course it proves something. It gives the OP the wrong impression when people with terrible attitudes come into their thread spouting that they should just do the bare minimum and then complain that others wont carry them.

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well I didn't see no attitude maybe I just cant read text emotions that great.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

no one who is carrying people or selling runs will invite the person into voip.

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Well yeah I know that why would they lol

I wouldn't give my PS4 tag out if I didn't know them either.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Well yeah I know that why would they lol

I wouldn't give my PS4 tag out if I didn't know them either.

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You said " if you have to tell them what to do. Isn't that the same as being carried?" Im just pointing out that of course they wouldn't need to be in the voip if they were getting carried.

Pointing out something has happened in a raid doesn't equal bad players, sometimes its nice having someone call stuff out. Some people find that helpful, that doesn't make them bad players.

Also I don't know what you mean about ps4 tag but anyone can see your tag if they play the game on the ps4.

I meant I wouldn't add them.

Also I still say I don't see how they could learn if they are told what to do, cause usually they would expect that all the time until they figured it out.

Yes I did say that it is being carried, cause you can watch a video and go in without someone peddling the way for you.

When a new person comes in sure advice is nice.

Though if you have to tell them to turn on a move or run to the left side and anything else you are winning the fight for them wouldn't you agree?

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

I meant I wouldn't add them.

Also I still say I don't see how they could learn if they are told what to do, cause usually they would expect that all the time until they figured it out.

Yes I did say that it is being carried, cause you can watch a video and go in without someone peddling the way for you.

When a new person comes in sure advice is nice.

Though if you have to tell them to turn on a move or run to the left side and anything else you are winning the fight for them wouldn't you agree?

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Most will say stuff like " this move in a few seconds." And also the person expecting it all the time until they figured it out? That would be no different if they were in VOIP or not..The group would still be waiting for them to get it figured out. Thats my point. To say just cause someone uses voip they aren't as good as those who don't is just stupid.

To your example, yes thats what we call a carry. Carries 99% of the time don't involve voip. Also no serious raiding static is going to have someone that needs to use a move or run to the left. They use it to shout out specific mechanics or just as a way to lighten the mood.

Saying you are bad just cause you use voice chat is like me saying everyone who doesn't is bad because the world first groups have always used voice chat in this game.

Can endgame content be cleared without the aid of VOIP? Sure... yeah... why not? A3/4S progression is highly debatable, but I'll concede it's possibility. Does VOIP help make everything that much easier? You BET your ass it does. That being said, would you purposely replace your BIS chest piece with a I190 chest before raiding? Why would you make your job more difficult? And more importantly, why would you make it more difficult on your team?

I don't doubt that any content in this game can be defeated without voice comms. However, I believe it is absurd to dismiss it's usefulness. And if you're not going to use it, you're essentially stating to the rest of your team that you are willingly take a handicap (sometimes extremely minor depending the instance) before the fight has even started.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

I don't doubt that any content in this game can be defeated without voice comms. However, I believe it is absurd to dismiss it's usefulness. And if you're not going to use it, you're essentially stating to the rest of your team that you are willingly take a handicap (sometimes extremely minor depending the instance) before the fight has even started.

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This is what I find so strange in this thread, is that the vocal majority who say it shouldn't be required and/or all content can be done without it are those that don't Raid. And yes I don't consider it Raiding when you are doing the Raid content Post major nerfs when a higher tier of gear is available, or even Post Major Nerfs/Echo.

i.e. Second Coil (Max available gear i110/i115) - So doing Second Coil in i130 Tome Gear with 20% Echo.

So what you have is OP -

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reason I ask is because me and my fiance recently left our raid group that was on A2S for progression and while there was a myriad of reasons one of them was because she has difficulty hearing due to being half-deaf. We cleared A1S without using TS and I would argue using it would not have made much of a difference in the long run.

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Then you have people replying in essence -

"Stick it to the man Bro - You don't need any available advantages. Look at me, I've completed all Raid Content and I've never stepped foot in a VOIP service."

-> Checks Lodestone -> Final Coil Completion - December 10 2015 - Alexander Savage - TBD -> Checks gear -> Upgraded Esoterics/Void Ark for their only job @ 60.


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That just completely paints a different picture in my mind.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

well I didn't see no attitude maybe I just cant read text emotions that great.

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It was not an attitude in the choice of words, it was more aimed at having a poor attitude in essentially blaming others for their short comings instead of reflecting on themselves for improvement.

i.e. -> "I did everything perfect and I still got kicked simply for not using VOIP"

Really? Is that really how it happened or is that how you perceived it? Maybe try to improve so you can see your own mistakes.

I didn't start the thread to stick it to anyone. I don't disagree with the use of VOIP at all. I'm just wondering how people with things like social anxiety or hearing impairment deal with these issues since a lot of static these days put on the "TS required" adds. This is a demand and I imagine it cuts off a percentage of players who would like to try raiding, it's a potential unnecessary third party requirement to play a game. It's true that this is a social game but an MMO is also an extreme form of escapism - something commonly used for people who generally like avoiding people.

Since it was mentioned, how many people have cleared insane content like A3S/A4S without using VOIP and if you did use it, how much of a difference did it make? Do you still use it for farming?

Also just to throw it out there, I would like to think me and my missus weren't carried, we're a tank/healer combo and our former raid leader said he's struggle to find a good replacement main tank.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

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I definitely think it's helpful, but I don't think it's required to raid efficiently. Raiding without it means that your team just needs to do things differently: discuss things after/before a run, have more environmental awareness, etc.

I have a Ventrilo server I'm holding onto from WoW for whenever our group of friends gets raid-ready again. Most of us play on PC, so it works out pretty well (not to mention the spate of free Vent apps for iOS and Android that could accommodate PS4 users). Will be interesting when we have to PUG, though...

I'm personally a huge fan of voice chat for group content. In my opinion, it's a lot more fun when you can actually talk with the people in your group. It helps you get to know them better, and helps you ruin their lives with endless waves of puns and dad-quality jokes.

[QUOTE=Jpec07;3537761It helps you get to know them better, and helps you ruin their lives with endless waves of puns and dad-quality jokes.[/QUOTE]

This is one reason I don't use voice chat, I don't need to hear all that crap. I much prefer listening to my music over listening to people trying to be funny or making in appropriate jokes. I had my fill of this crap when I raided in WOW, don't need it here. Probably the one reason that I do not do any hardcore raiding.