How about a non-support ranged dps?

I would like a ranged DPS that isn't focused on support and isn't a bow/gun mage. Maybe it could do weaker damage in exchange for faster speed. >x>

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

Red Mage is probably going to be the next DPS.

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Given what RDM is and FFXIV sticking with the trinity system, I have a feeling RDM would end up as a tank job utilizing black magic for damage and enmity and white magic for self-healing and defense.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

I would like a ranged DPS that isn't focused on support and isn't a bow/gun mage. Maybe it could do weaker damage in exchange for faster speed. >x>

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IT'd be nice to have a traditional physical ranged dps, and not a faux caster. It seems incredibly silly and last minute to put WM on BRD.

SE's reasoning is that if you are ranged physical you have mobility and survivability over a melee. You are not subject to directional attacks and have no risk of enemies cleaving you with attacks in melee range.

Due to this, SE balances the damage output of physical ranged by lowering the overall ceiling of damage.

There has to be an incentive for someone to play melee dps, if a ranged physical can reach dps levels of a melee and not have any directionals or risk of cleaves, then there would be no point to playing melee.

TLDR - ranged physical will always have reduced damaged output comparatively to other classes, due to "mobility" according to SE.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

SE's reasoning is that if you are ranged physical you have mobility and survivability over a melee. You are not subject to directional attacks and have no risk of enemies cleaving you with attacks in melee range.

Due to this, SE balances the damage output of physical ranged by lowering the overall ceiling of damage.

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Their logic holds no ground if they don't lower all ranged dps overall output, including summoners and black mages. Even then I disagree. Ranged typically have responsibilities in boss fights melee don't at least in most MMOs. I haven't raided anything past duty finder in FFXIV so I'm not 100% sure that's the case here. In World of warcraft I have raided the highest difficulty in the last few expansions.

Can't really do anything about it though if the devs ways are set in stone.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

TLDR - ranged physical will always have reduced damaged output comparatively to other classes, due to "mobility" according to SE.

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And that goes down the toilet with the introduction of WM/GB, even though it doesn't "buff" their damage anymore than the other dps classes getting "buffed" from their new post-50 skills.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

There logic holds no ground if they don't lower all ranged dps overall output, including summoners and black mages. Even then I disagree. Ranged typically have responsibilities in boss fights melee don't at least in most MMOs. I haven't raided anything past duty finder in FFXIV so I'm not 100% sure that's the case here. In World of warcraft I have raided the highest difficulty in the last few expansions.

Can't really do anything about it though if the devs ways are set in stone.

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Party synergy and group composition would play into role here; it's why you wouldn't stack all of one job. You get a BRD to buff magic damage and to have regen, you get a MCH for damage debuff and regen, you get DRG for disembowel, casters for additional virus and E4E, etc etc.

The reason why BRDs damage was too low due to it being the most mobile of all classes on top of mp/tp.

But that thinking fallsapart since BRDs (and MCH more or less) now have to cast.

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Originally Posted by myahele

The reason why BRDs damage was too low due to it being the most mobile of all classes on top of mp/tp.

But that thinking fallsapart since BRDs (and MCH more or less) now have to cast.

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While the thinking may fall apart, its what SE is still hiding behind for their explanation. I'm just letting you know what they said when they responded over the whole fiasco over WM in the first place. They reduced the penalty to turn it on and off and said, see, you're still mobile. I really dont think they will let ranged dps get much higher dps levels to be honest. When 2.0 first came out, BRD was the king due to high mobility and the original RoD. Groups would stack 4 BRD's and clear things quite easily. They nerfed RoD and made it so the LB doesnt go up as fast when you stack classes due to this very reason.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

While the thinking may fall apart, its what SE is still hiding behind for their explanation. I'm just letting you know what they said when they responded over the whole fiasco over WM in the first place.

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IIRC, they actually have given no official reasoning for WM's inclusion, just what the purpose of it was. Which...honestly doesn't make sense because at that point, it's not buffing their dps anymore as the other jobs buffing their dps with their post-50 skills. The end result is that you have WM getting rid of the mobility aspect...and them still being lower in output.

Theoretical question, if all jobs as of right now did the same amount of damage (regardless of caster, ranged or melee), would it still be favorable to stack double, triple, or all four?

It all began when 1.0 failed and 2.0 took over. They wanted to bring the classical jobs back which was amazing and pretty straightforward: marauder to war, conjurer to whm, gladiator to pld, archer to ranger etc. Wait what.. Archer to brd!?!? People who understand FF's classical jobs, understand brd was forced on archer.

They had to have a job which could mildly support the party (mp/tp/foe's). There was no room for true support. I have no idea why they did not choose healers to have these abilities (different name, different animation bla bla, same result). It's not like you'd do any kind of content without a healer. The moment you would not need one, you most likely would not need its support.

Archer should have been a true DPS: Ranger.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

IIRC, they actually have given no official reasoning for WM's inclusion, just what the purpose of it was. Which...honestly doesn't make sense because at that point, it's not buffing their dps anymore as the other jobs buffing their dps with their post-50 skills. The end result is that you have WM getting rid of the mobility aspect...and them still being lower in output.

Theoretical question, if all jobs as of right now did the same amount of damage (regardless of caster, ranged or melee), would it still be favorable to stack double, triple, or all four?

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Not who you asked, but the honest answer is if all DPS was equal, you would stack 4 ninja. They have the best overall party support with both the slashing debuff helping tanks, and trick attack helping everyone. Rotate the CD properly among the 4 NIN to get a constant +10% damage. They can also provide regen for sustained fights, Goad still being a thing to provide the TP boost to the tank and the other NIN.

So the answer is, in a world where all damage is equal, and you don't get a LB penalty for stacking classes, go 4 NIN in DPS. Best overall support, and better overall party DPS.

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Originally Posted by SkyBane001

Not who you asked, but the honest answer is if all DPS was equal, you would stack 4 ninja. They have the best overall party support with both the slashing debuff helping tanks, and trick attack helping everyone. Rotate the CD properly among the 4 NIN to get a constant +10% damage. They can also provide regen for sustained fights, Goad still being a thing to provide the TP boost to the tank and the other NIN.

So the answer is, in a world where all damage is equal, and you don't get a LB penalty for stacking classes, go 4 NIN in DPS. Best overall support, and better overall party DPS.

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Except, you have a warrior for slashing debuff, you have no regen for healers, no foe requiem or RoD to boost healer damage, no STR bonus for tanks, and of course the obligatory reduced LB charge. Would the increased uptime on the 10% debuff be enough to win out on foe reqiuem, the loss of STR on tanks, and the reduced LB charge?

That's also not getting into issues with positioning for mechanics like lightning storm or sluice.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Except, you have a warrior for slashing debuff, you have no regen for healers, no foe requiem or RoD to boost healer damage, no STR bonus for tanks, and of course the obligatory reduced LB charge. Would the increased uptime on the 10% debuff be enough to win out on foe reqiuem, the loss of STR on tanks, and the reduced LB charge?

That's also not getting into issues with positioning for mechanics like lightning storm or sluice.

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I assumed in your theoretical (as I stated) that we went back to no reduced lb charge, as that's the only way the theoretical even makes sense. Healer damage is less than tank damage, and really only takes off when you have actual magic DPS in the party. So really it comes down to is the extra up time on trick attack worth the loss of the strength buff, and the the extra 5% more damage from your scholar? Reduced limit break charge makes it all moot, however.

Mabye I have missed a lot of points, but making a pure ranged DPS would be way too OP. Unless you mean like a DPS that has to stand still, like BLM without cast times?
I mean being able to move on brd/mch AND DPS while avoiding mechanics is a huge plus side the the job (Its why they made the trade-off of standing still to improve DPS). Also they have zero positional requirements so all attacks always land for full potency. All pure DPS (melee) have little nuances that make them more difficult to always attain maximum potency.

TLDR: being able to avoid all mechanics while constantly DPSing, no positionals, allowing hitting for full potency would be too OP.

maybe I just named the obvious though.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Make the red mage melee healer. Make the dancer melee support. And bam! You get a room for pure range dps class... beastmaster with a long whip could be interesting.

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I'll be crushed if the whip class ends up being a stupid beastmaster.

I'd be happy if they returned Bard to the way it was pre-Heavensward and let Machinist be the non-mobile turret.

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Originally Posted by 16bitBounty

I'll be crushed if the whip class ends up being a stupid beastmaster.

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Which class would you prefer to have a whip?

Really any of them except beastmaster. Blue mage would be first choice though

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Originally Posted by Tanama

Which class would you prefer to have a whip?

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The AoE class. I mean, honestly, you give a job a whip and make it centered on itself or its weapon characteristics, rather than on a pet, and what else is it going to be? You walk in, whip in hand, and proceed to auto-attack 4 enemies at a time. "Hi. I'm AoE."

I believe it was called Flayer in the 1.x localization notes though.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

Well then how are they going to justify adding any new DPS classes then?

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

So then do you agree with them adding Samurais? We have enough melee DPS.

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math is hard

4 DPS slots
- 2 melee DPS slots (split between 3 jobs)
- 1 ranged DPS slot (split between 2 jobs)
- 1 magic DPS slot (split between 2 jobs)

you want 4 melee DPS for those 2 slots to get the 1:2 ratio, so there's more than enough room for Samurai as a melee DPS.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The AoE class. I mean, honestly, you give a job a whip and make it centered on itself or its weapon characteristics, rather than on a pet, and what else is it going to be? You walk in, whip in hand, and proceed to auto-attack 4 enemies at a time. "Hi. I'm AoE."

I believe it was called Flayer in the 1.x localization notes though.

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even if whip can hurt, they are not the most efficient weapon for kill.... exept if you use a weird type of whip that are often unrealistic...

a whip will be used for cripples or restrain more than kill people.... then make it a weapon for a pet class seems legit.

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Originally Posted by SkyBane001

I assumed in your theoretical (as I stated) that we went back to no reduced lb charge, as that's the only way the theoretical even makes sense. Healer damage is less than tank damage, and really only takes off when you have actual magic DPS in the party. So really it comes down to is the extra up time on trick attack worth the loss of the strength buff, and the the extra 5% more damage from your scholar? Reduced limit break charge makes it all moot, however.

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I meant it in the scope of the game if all classes are equal. You're also only looking at it from a complete damage perspective and not in regards to an actual encounter. Running with all melee (not just NIN) will cramp you boss to deal with mechanics that hit players in an AoE, reducing uptime on dps.

You don't want to stack the current ranged jobs either, BRD and MCH lacks a piercing debuff from DRG's disembowel, casters won't have a BRD for foe or regen for the healers.

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Originally Posted by Accolade

All pure DPS (melee) have little nuances that make them more difficult to always attain maximum potency.

TLDR: being able to avoid all mechanics while constantly DPSing, no positionals, allowing hitting for full potency would be too OP.

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That's sort of the thing, they're little nuances that wouldn't amount to much to a capable player. Melee dps is very well capable of maintaining full uptime and hitting their positionals through the fight mechanics. Heck, even during 2.5, a BRD undeniably has full uptime on dps, and they are still behind that of a melee/caster dps by good amount. And well, right now you already gave them WM/GB and the damage discrepancy is still there despite not having full uptime.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That's sort of the thing, they're little nuances that wouldn't amount to much to a capable player. Melee dps is very well capable of maintaining full uptime and hitting their positionals through the fight mechanics. Heck, even during 2.5, a BRD undeniably has full uptime on dps, and they are still behind that of a melee/caster dps by good amount. And well, right now you already gave them WM/GB and the damage discrepancy is still there despite not having full uptime.

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ok let's explain simpler, since you refuse to understand....
bard and machinist, don't recquire position nor to stay at melee range for attack.... they have range and can attack from wherever they want. if they was dealing the same dps than melee, why bring melee? i means why bring one? it will be simpler to go full Range for reduce the accident chance of sweeps or aoe missed by a melee...

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

even if whip can hurt, they are not the most efficient weapon for kill.... exept if you use a weird type of whip that are often unrealistic...

a whip will be used for cripples or restrain more than kill people.... then make it a weapon for a pet class seems legit.

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Went to a HEMA meeting where someone had brought an authentic "war whip" (?), and then casually blew through a 60-lb pile of lumber with it. Not too unrealistic in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Went to a HEMA meeting where someone had brought an authentic "war whip" (?), and then casually blew through a 60-lb pile of lumber with it. Not too unrealistic in that regard.

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are you sure it wasn't a flail weapon? that not the same type and weapon...

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ok let's explain simpler, since you refuse to understand....
bard and machinist, don't recquire position nor to stay at melee range for attack.... they have range and can attack from wherever they want. if they was dealing the same dps than melee, why bring melee? i means why bring one? it will be simpler to go full Range for reduce the accident chance of sweeps or aoe missed by a melee...

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Because if you're not bringing a melee, you don't have a DRG, whom provides a crit buff for the entire party member and disembowel that buffs MCH/BRD dps. If you don't have a DRK, you're also losing out on a int debuff from MNK which does wonders for incoming damage mitigation during fights. You're also not going to get a STR buff for your tanks for that extra damage and enmity generation. And if you went all range, you're going to need some of them to stand in melee range anyway to avoid spacing issues, negating their advantage of taking from a distance while losing out on the aforementioned advantages from melee.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

are you sure it wasn't a flail weapon? that not the same type and weapon...

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Nah, about 15 ft long. Loud enough to hurt your ears across the courtyard when it cracked and when it hit. Sent chunks of wood flying 20+ ft.

Edit: was merely bringing that up as a irl example of a whip that is an effective weapon. This particular one could only really be used for a linear (forward) strikes, rather than horizontal cleaves, but could kill an armored knight when striking to the head, and break right through pauldrons, and could rip arms literally off, while striking across 7 ft or so at a time. Unleashing a class that could do anything like that would be... terrifying, to say the least.

you finding escuse for ignore the main point...

in terms of mechanic, the bard and machinist haven't the same issue than melee... make them deal as much damage is simply idiot. if you want a full dps ranged, go magic and that will not change. they will not make a physical ranged dps that will have almost no constraint deal the same damage than the melee.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nah, about 15 ft long. Loud enough to hurt your ears across the courtyard when it cracked and when it hit. Sent chunks of wood flying 20+ ft.

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15ft long? don't want to see the movement needed for get enough power inside it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ok let's explain simpler, since you refuse to understand....
bard and machinist, don't recquire position nor to stay at melee range for attack.... they have range and can attack from wherever they want. if they was dealing the same dps than melee, why bring melee? i means why bring one? it will be simpler to go full Range for reduce the accident chance of sweeps or aoe missed by a melee...

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Lesser raid buffs, no stuns, lesser armor, limited ranged space anyways. (Yes, MCH has a stun... which is also only from melee range. It might just as well be called Failed Mafia-style Execution as Suppressive Fire, going by the icon.)

Note: there was a time when ranged typically out-dpsed melee in dummy fights, and we still brought melee.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Utility is important stuff

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Indeed. And honestly one of the ways they could tune a "non-support" ranged DPS would be for it to have less utility than the others (that kind of balancing already sort of exists for MNK, which has higher theoretical DPS but less useful utility, and NIN which has lower personal DPS but much higher utility).

Such a DPS would likely compete with BLM/SMN for party slot, which might cause concern due to the fact that a lot of fights "require" magic damage (original T4 and T11 for instance), but given that Final Fantasy has potential to add melee casters (either Red Mage or Blue Mage), there are ways to prevent it from being a problem.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Indeed. And honestly one of the ways they could tune a "non-support" ranged DPS would be for it to have less utility than the others (that kind of balancing already sort of exists for MNK, which has higher theoretical DPS but less useful utility, and NIN which has lower personal DPS but much higher utility).

Such a DPS would likely compete with BLM/SMN for party slot, which might cause concern due to the fact that a lot of fights "require" magic damage (original T4 and T11 for instance), but given that Final Fantasy has potential to add melee casters (either Red Mage or Blue Mage), there are ways to prevent it from being a problem.

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If Ranger/Sniper/Marksman, ammo types would be another, though perhaps gimmicky, workaround.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

you finding escuse for ignore the main point...

in terms of mechanic, the bard and machinist haven't the same issue than melee... make them deal as much damage is simply idiot. if you want a full dps ranged, go magic and that will not change. they will not make a physical ranged dps that will have almost no constraint deal the same damage than the melee.

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No, you're not taking the whole point into consideration beyond the damage numbers. And even if it's an excuse, so what? This is an argument/debate and that's how it's supposed to be going back and forth, unless you can disprove my point.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Lesser raid buffs, no stuns, lesser armor, limited ranged space anyways. (Yes, MCH has a stun... which is also only from melee range. It might just as well be called Failed Mafia-style Execution as Suppressive Fire, going by the icon.)

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Mafia-style execution for 100 potency. Seems legit. Though in seriousness, all it does is shoot fuzzy...electric mist that apparently stuns them.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Indeed. And honestly one of the ways they could tune a "non-support" ranged DPS would be for it to have less utility than the others (that kind of balancing already sort of exists for MNK, which has higher theoretical DPS but less useful utility, and NIN which has lower personal DPS but much higher utility).

Such a DPS would likely compete with BLM/SMN for party slot, which might cause concern due to the fact that a lot of fights "require" magic damage (original T4 and T11 for instance), but given that Final Fantasy has potential to add melee casters (either Red Mage or Blue Mage), there are ways to prevent it from being a problem.

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The discrepancy between, say NIN and MNK isn't really wide enough to objectively take one or the other. Although at the same time, DRG is practically needed because no other job in the game provides a piercing debuff for your BRD/MCH.

They could also get away with doing a spellblade or spitfire dps, magic damage without the restrictions of cast time or in melee range. If MCH was to be the pure-dps type without the support, they could have given them an ability to change their ammo to be attributed with magic and deal magic damage in place of a caster (and change functionality of their abilities). Or they could have made MCH blunt and be able to provide blunt resistance, so a MNK can keep using bootshine for a potency increase. You've heard me say this before, there's a lot they could have done with MCH if they were aiming for it to be competing with BRD or as a ranged dps, but instead they undershot it big time.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If Ranger/Sniper/Marksman, ammo types would be another, though perhaps gimmicky, workaround.

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True. That's honestly what I thought they were going to do with MCH for awhile, until we got more information about how turrets were going to work. I thought they were going to be a full DPS for the caster slot (and even pondered if they might have been INT-based "engineers" instead of marksmen). But I'm a dork and like to ponder different wonky possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

True. That's honestly what I thought they were going to do with MCH for awhile, until we got more information about how turrets were going to work. I thought they were going to be a full DPS for the caster slot (and even pondered if they might have been INT-based "engineers" instead of marksmen). But I'm a dork and like to ponder different wonky possibilities.

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To be fair though, I think it's a better alternative to make them compete with BRD, because otherwise you're looking at 3 melee, 3 casters, 1 ranged competing for 2/1/1 slots respectively. Unless they homogenize BRD into a full dps without the regen, and do away with the ranged/caster role to consolidate it all into one "Ranged" dps role. If they go with the latter though, they'd need to bake in the missing regen into the healers and physical dps so that it's entirely on the burden on the individual players to manage their resources, or at least not make it a requirement for progression.

I mean taking an example, WoW healers aren't running out of mana because they don't have regen, it's because the fight is taking too long (on the DPS) and/or the tank is requiring too many heals (which can be partly be because they're not durable enough from a mitigation perspective, something that FFXIV doesn't make a point of with the vit/str setup)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

To be fair though, I think it's a better alternative to make them compete with BRD, because otherwise you're looking at 3 melee, 3 casters, 1 ranged competing for 2/1/1 slots respectively.

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Sure, given the current class spread I'd agree that MCH is a better fit for BRD's current role. I think there is room in the future for a ranged DPS that's physical in the current caster slot, though.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

True. That's honestly what I thought they were going to do with MCH for awhile, until we got more information about how turrets were going to work. I thought they were going to be a full DPS for the caster slot (and even pondered if they might have been INT-based "engineers" instead of marksmen). But I'm a dork and like to ponder different wonky possibilities.

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I thought they'd be INT/DEX, using a sort of Scavenge resource that could be used to build turrets, augment ammo, or upgrade their weapons, and that Gauss Barrel would be either a simple rifle-grip style or a battlefield component that accelerates, redirects, or splits shots passing through it... Then disillusionment set it.

Still a damn fun job though, as far as I've gotten to see (lvl 55 atm, and many a lvl 60 dummy MCH dps video drooled over).

That sad, its current state kind of feels like a half-ass mix of an actual Machinist and a Marksman, which is fine except that it somewhat prevents purer variants of each from being worth developing.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Sure, given the current class spread I'd agree that MCH is a better fit for BRD's current role. I think there is room in the future for a ranged DPS that's physical in the current caster slot, though.

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I'd just really like to get away from the Ranged = Support paradigm, honestly. Sure, bring a (longevity, rather than offensive) Support for every progression / serious 8-man, but I just don't see why it would have to be Ranged, or that in turn each Ranged would have to be that. It works, but I hope it won't carry any further.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Still a damn fun job though, as far as I've gotten to see (lvl 55 atm, and many a lvl 60 dummy MCH dps video drooled over).

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I want to love it, but the "rhythm" of their ability usage feels too disparate from that of the other classes for me to play it at all. It's somewhere in between the standard GCD classes and the casters, and I just can't acclimate to it. Outside of the crafting mess at the start of HW, MCH was probably the thing I was most disappointed in on a personal level.

I'm crossing my fingers that they completely revamp both WM and GB in 4.0, as I think they're ultimately both detrimental to the game in the long run.

The way they could get this issue is to add a pure ranged DPS class in conjunction with a melee based on int. So you essentially trade 1 for 1.

In this scenario:
You would get to keep at least 1 magic DPS in comp.
Not sacrifice party utility, You get a BRD/MCH (or give the utility to the new melee magic DPS) 2 ranged, and 2 melee.
The only problem that I would see would be balancing this party comp against the current ones to ensure the same DPS relative to uptime.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I want to love it, but the "rhythm" of their ability usage feels too disparate from that of the other classes for me to play it at all. It's somewhere in between the standard GCD classes and the casters, and I just can't acclimate to it. Outside of the crafting mess at the start of HW, MCH was probably the thing I was most disappointed in on a personal level.

I'm crossing my fingers that they completely revamp both WM and GB in 4.0, as I think they're ultimately both detrimental to the game in the long run.

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That's the thing for me, though. I actually prefer WM Bard. I think it could have been done way better, but it's still an improvement. I like the gambles and the fighting for my free double-weaves. Maybe a slightly higher Straighter Shot chance would be nice, maybe being able to stack two of them, but all in all I've come to enjoy working with and around it. That said, I also really like going back to level 50 synced runs (especially with everyone overgeared) as Bard. But what makes those level 50 synced runs fun to me on my 60 Bard isn't the lack of WM, which makes the original rotation feel flat by comparison, but just the sheer crit rates and RoD/BLs I'm getting from the cheaper secondary stat scaling. It's like I can't not oGCD on a given GCD... ever, at least in when there are more than two mobs present. That, and the tanks usually remember then that with Quelling up, I can have a mob pack up to half dead by the time we reach the final mob gather point from running AoEs...

Overall, my biggest issue with WM is its acquisition level - why here, why now? It's a hugely jarring change, especially for those who've never played a caster, or perhaps more fittingly a healer (sub-recast cast times). I would have much preferred it to be a level 25-40 ability (e.g. Full Draw) with a lesser stance cooldown, which gradually increased benefits and disadvantages through traits to reach something much like WM by level 50. Ideally, the optimal Bard would then stance-dance between both forms, Marksman and Hunter, Full Draw and Quick Draw, whatever you might call them, with more interesting rotational priorities in each (simply put, more internal mechanics, rather than just River of Blood). We need things to rotationally look forward to and set up. As is, pure-dps WAR seems like the best example of this kind of thought or gameplay, albeit just barely starting into it, and that's by wasting freaking defensive CDs to time out Abandon stacks and Infuriate with Fell Cleave and Berserk. That's just sad... MCH itself is probably a close second, or perhaps DRG or BLM through BotD and Enochian timing with BFB and the Astral cycle.

Edit: But oh god that WM animation. Going to charge up the light-juice in my quiver. Glowy hand. Somehow it make things stronger.

P.S. If a weird hybrid of two different GCD-handling styles isn't your thing, pretty much all the jobs I try to make up when bored to death probably wouldn't fit your preferences, either. : (

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's the thing for me, though. I actually prefer WM Bard. I think it could have been done way better, but it's still an improvement.

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You're not the only one that likes it more (though at least among those I talk to/read on the forums, you're one of the few). The distaste is so great for me that I won't even play either class in level-50 content anymore because all it does is remind me how much I liked them before 52. BRD was my third Zeta in ARR, and I had rather grown to enjoy it as an alternative DPS choice next to my main NIN.

But I definitely agree that if it were implemented better, it would have been a much different story. That sort of core gameplay should really be introduced early on (as you suggest, perhaps around level 30). MCH in particular should have had Gauss Barrel from the start, and the fact that it doesn't suggests to me that the cast times were a late-development addition to the two classes (and it's generally pretty obvious they didn't get enough testing given that).

Compared to other classes that received "larger" changes, like BLM, DRG, and SMN, BRD and MCH just feel really careless in the overall implementation. The other three all introduce you to the new concepts gradually—and ultimately the problem with suddenly adding cast times to the class is that it's not something you can add gradually, in addition to the change feeling like a penalty (that doesn't really adequately make up for the loss in mobility for several levels).

By the time I got BRD to 60 I was so disgusted with the mechanics that I did my level 60 class quest and shelved it, not even bothering to do a level 60 dungeon (which is something every other job so far has gotten the courtesy of). And I had leveled MCH first, so I was already accustomed to some degree to the cast times. Both classes are just glamour fodder for me now (and MCH is something I'd been dying for since I had always wanted to use guns in FFXI but never did).

BRD's implementation overall is just really messy—MCH at least has a number of mechanics that interact with GB in a positive way (such as shot procs and Rapid Shot making your shots normal GCD skills again). BRD, though, feels like it was shoehorned into the paradigm in a way that none of its skillset really seems like it "meshes" with WM.

And yes, the animations for both WM and GB are awful, especially when you throw in the really cool oGCD animations and sound effects that both classes have that are constantly getting clipped because of it.