Regarding the Localization of Haurchefant in the EN/FR/DE Versions of FFXIV

Differing cultures where it's okay in Japan, but it's filtered out in the U.s. And, you're both missing the bigger picture. He said he's working closely with the Japanese team to ensure no more 'problematic' (gay male) characters are added.

If you think the straight men thinking gay men are creepy thing is a stereotype, just read the majority of the posts here.

It's always fascinating to get an insight into how localisation works for such a lore-heavy medium. Sometimes it must seem a thankless job, but you're weaving life into a crafted universe that we as players all partake in. We do appreciate it and that so many people feel strongly enough to comment either way about the situation says a lot about the end results.

Probably doesn't mean much coming from one person, but thank you localisation team. Just keep doing what you do.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

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While this debate on Haurchefant is coming up now due to the interview, the changes were already being made back in the 2.x patch series to bring him more in line with the JP version, and guess what? Gay male characters were added in (or rather pre-existing characters were shown off a bit more), which many of us accepted here (and from what Fenral said they had an even worse stereotype added to them on the JP version, so if anything is going to stop the addition of more its whether they can create gay male characters WITHOUT being complete sterotypes.)

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Originally Posted by Chasely

Differing cultures where it's okay in Japan, but it's filtered out in the U.s. And, you're both missing the bigger picture. He said he's working closely with the Japanese team to ensure no more 'problematic' (gay male) characters are added.

If you think the straight men thinking gay men are creepy thing is a stereotype, just read the majority of the posts here.

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I do believe we are tolerable when it comes to people enjoying the company of the same gender here, whenever it is female or male.
In Hauchefant's case however, his romantic approach could have been mostly one-sided and people might have gotten uncomfortable, yet you would have to deal with it in the storyline.

Japan as different (pop-)cultural tastes than us, so I found it clever the team took that in consideration.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

Differing cultures where it's okay in Japan, but it's filtered out in the U.s. And, you're both missing the bigger picture. He said he's working closely with the Japanese team to ensure no more 'problematic' (gay male) characters are added.

If you think the straight men thinking gay men are creepy thing is a stereotype, just read the majority of the posts here.

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Go re-read the article again. He is saying the OPPOSITE thing! He said that in the future they are going to be more faithful in their translation into English, German, and French. So if Japan writes a character that is gay in the future, then English, French, German speaking countries will have the exact same translation, therefor the gay character. Also, might I point out yet again that English is not for only America, but other countries as well. And they decided with the other European languages to change Haurchefant. These nations are more pro-gay rights with a more gay friendly media. So I think it is you who is making the wrong assumption. His character wouldn't have been gay, anyways. He would have been bisexual, but that is the least of his problems when it comes to adapting him to western world audience.

In final Fantasy 11, there was a major gay character. He was incredibly effeminate, spoke with a lisp and even flirted with your character. there was also a male mithra (Miqot'e); the only catboy you see in the entire game. He took my male character on a date. There were numerous sidequests involving gay characters. One of my favorites was a love triangle between three firends called "three men in the closet." None of those characters were labeled problematic. In fact, the fem gay character was so popular he became a summonable NPC ally later.

In FFXIV 1.x there were people of all sexualities and ethnicities littering the towns and stories. None of them were problematic. Why are they suddenly being labelled so?

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Originally Posted by Anselmet

Go re-read the article again. He is saying the OPPOSITE thing! He said that in the future they are going to be more faithful in their translation into English, German, and French. So if Japan writes a character that is gay in the future, then English, French, German speaking countries will have the exact same translation, therefor the gay character. Also, might I point out yet again that English is not for only America, but other countries as well. And they decided with the other European languages to change Haurchefant. These nations are more pro-gay rights with a more gay friendly media. So I think it is you who is making the wrong assumption. His character wouldn't have been gay, anyways. He would have been bisexual, but that is the least of his problems when it comes to adapting him to western world audience.

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Go read it AGAIN! he said he was going to work closely with the Japanese writing team to ensure no more problematic situations arise, and he's still going to change things he doesn't like. He's just going to get permission, first.

It's also important to note that the more he became like the Japanese version, the more popular he became with the playerbase. So the idea that the EN version was superior is rubbish.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

It was both sexism and homophobia. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you speak for all gay people.

The difference being that straight guys think lesbians are hot, so they get to see lesbians. Straight guys think gay men are creepy, so no getting hit on by men. the same can be said for the female cosplay outfits we get with no male equivalent. straight guys like seeing almost naked girls, so they give us lots of almost naked girls. straight guys don't want to see sexy men, so we get bland male outfits.

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I'm not, however you are taking a non issue and blowing it out of proportions. You're also going ahead using strong words that do not apply to this situation. He still hits on you in the English, French, and German version.
And we still have the same shirtless men in squatting-purgatory in his office -> and no matter the gender of your character there will always be subtle hints of him being besotted with you. Heck some of the NPC's in Camp Dragonhead are directly telling you that your character is just his type. Had they removed all of this completely because of the underlying bisexual undertones, then yes, we could talk homophobia. However that is not the case here, they merely toned him down slightly so he wouldn't be overwhelming for some English speakers. Again, i would advise you to leave your condemning tone and finger pointing at home and try to approach this in a mature way instead of using strong accusations/words that you (judging by your use of them) may not completely understand. This is not Homophobia, nor is it sexism.

To that second statement of yours.. Try to go to Camp Bronze Lake and take a stroll through all the fanservice in the hotsprings, and try and make yourself a male alt and come back and tell me there's only bland outfits for men. I personally do not dress my Emm here in sexy speedos and the like, but despite going through this game avoiding sexy outfits it's nearly impossible with a male character. With my Melee DPS i end up in a snake-skin leather strap speedo at level 41 with buckles and the like. At 45 there's the coliseum set. If you start a Tank class prepare for cod pieces and more straps and pants so tight your character wind up with a permanent weggie. Oh and if i did want to splurge and get my guy some swimwear for the mist.. Oh dear.. that stuff is more suggestive that the bland standard bikini's for the females.. I find it hilarious and get a nice laugh whenever i see big bulky man Roe's running around freezing.
So I don't see where you're going with this really.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

In final Fantasy 11, there was a major gay character. He was incredibly effeminate, spoke with a lisp and even flirted with your character. there was also a male mithra (Miqot'e); the only catboy you see in the entire game. He took my male character on a date. There were numerous sidequests involving gay characters. One of my favorites was a love triangle between three firends called "three men in the closet." None of those characters were labeled problematic. In fact, the fem gay character was so popular he became a summonable NPC ally later.

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So you say that the quests with those characters were optional, and I could've just ignored them if I wouldn't feel like it, right?
In the FFXIV MSQ, however, I would have to 'endure' the musings of JP Hauchefaunt or else I end up stuck in my progress.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

It's also important to note that the more he became like the Japanese version, the more popular he became with the playerbase. So the idea that the EN version was superior is rubbish.

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No one was accusing that EN HF is superior, he was just made more adequate and acceptable for the western audience. Which worked.

Thank you for realizing how much Haurchefant means to some of us and how important this was to a lot of us, thank you for taking the time to address it and for your part in writing his character. I love both sides of him and he'll always be special to me..

:( thank you so much for writing Haurchefant, in a way I can hear him speaking through your words.. :'( His death was probably the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with, and whether he is english or japanese.. I will always love him..

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Originally Posted by Arrius

So you say that the quests with those characters were optional, and I could've just ignored them if I wouldn't feel like it, right?
In the FFXIV MSQ, however, I would have to 'endure' the musings of JP Hauchefaunt or else I end up stuck in my progress.



No one was accusing that EN HF is superior, he was just made more adequate and acceptable for the western audience. Which worked.

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Actually, the date, and the fem male NPC were not optional. They were part of the main story. I listed a single optional quest.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

Actually, the date, and the fem male NPC were not optional. They were part of the main story. I listed a single optional quest.

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Ah, my bad. :)

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

He still hits on you in the English, French, and German version.

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Let's not forget they were changes he was forced to make, or lose his job. He made Haurchefant a boring, forgettable character on purpose. yoshi-P and the Japanese team told him to fix him.

Also, those characters are idealized versions of the male figure as MEN see them. they're what the media tells men to aspire to be, not what most women find particularly attracitve. Just look at their faces. they're not handsome at all. Most Highlander hyur males have rather trollish appearances.

...They really should have locked this thread after posting it... >w>

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Originally Posted by Chasely

Let's not forget they were changes he was forced to make, or lose his job. He made Haurchefant a boring, forgettable character on purpose. yoshi-P and the Japanese team told him to fix him.

Also, those characters are idealized versions of the male figure as MEN see them. they're what the media tells men to aspire to be, not what most women find particularly attracitve. Just look at their faces. they're not handsome at all. Most Highlander hyur males have rather trollish appearances.

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I'm just gonna stop replying to you here, I'm tired and done. Let people be happy with the EN version and give their thanks to the devs for their hard work. Hopefully the negative posts will be drowned out by more positive posts/Haurchefant tributes because frankly this thread was nice before it became.. well this.
I will not sit here and waste my time discussing media and attractiveness, and I cannot speak for the dev as i do not know of his situation. All we know is we got a genuine apology and explanation to something people had been pondering on. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Corvinoobus

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The camaraderie I felt with Lord H via his Dialog actually made me, the player, want revenge for his death due to how likable he was.

Though I'll admit the..... Interesting Variant, that the Japanese script had would have been interesting and was by no means poorly written, I'm just not as sure if it'd have the same impact as the "brother in arms" archtype that the EN Localization depicted him as.

Either way though, I always appreciate the work you devs put into the game. Even the parts I don't care for as much as others. You can't please everyone but sure try to please as many as possible. And this was just an unfortunate side effect of that diligence.

I just want the localization team to know that we want the Japanese meanings as they are, it's how it's intended. I know you need your job so you have to "prove" you're doing something. But this doesn't reflect what your customers want, the controversy shows that we don't want these changes.

People also don't seem to realize he didn't jsut change one character's personality. he changed multiple major characters' personalities entirely. He completely altered entire questlines and he changed the game's lore. This wasn't some small thing. This was huge. If it hadn't been, Yoshi-P would not have called him out, and he would not have posted this letter.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I just want the localization team to know that we want the Japanese meanings as they are, it's how it's intended. I know you need your job so you have to "prove" you're doing something. But this doesn't reflect what your customers want, the controversy shows that we don't want these changes.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

People also don't seem to realize he didn't jsut change one character's personality. he changed multiple major characters' personalities entirely. He completely altered entire questlines and he changed the game's lore. This wasn't some small thing. This was huge. If it hadn't been, Yoshi-P would not have called him out, and he would not have posted this letter.

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Both of these are understandable yes, and I would like to see the script, going forward, be closer to the JP one...HOWEVER, just because a character is changed doesn't automatically mean things are absolutely ruined. Take Kefka for example...the way he was written in Japan was considered bland and he isn't popular, yet in NA (atleast in the US) the changes made to his character has made him one of the most loved villians in the franchise.

Again GOING FORWARD it'll be good/nice to see the scripts being closer together, but changes between versions IS NOT A BAD THING.

The problem here isn't Haurchefant himself but it was CHANGED without consulting Yoshi-P/Japan team first. So whether you like the English Haurchefant or not is irrelevant. The process was wrong, unprofessional, and could've been prevented.

A similar situation I can think of is when Dragonball Z first came over to the states in the 90's, where the localization team literally changed everything to try to adhere to a certain audience. Over time they redubbed the lines to match the original version, because the difference in lore changes had the fanbase fighting each other on what was canon, so this seems to be an unfortunate trend with English localization teams.

Not only is this disrespectful to the writers and developers, it's a huge slap in the face to fans who want an AUTHENTIC FFXIV experience. You failed to deliver that for them.

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Originally Posted by ZQ875456

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Not only is this disrespectful to the writers and developers, it's a huge slap in the face to fans who want an AUTHENTIC FFXIV experience. You failed to deliver that for them.

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It's more or less this. A similar circumstance was Hideo Kojima being extremely upset (if not angry) with a certain scene in MGS:PW being censored in the Japanese version. Story writers and such want their stories to be told the way they wanted it to be told, not bowdlerized and lose the original scope.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

He said he's working closely with the Japanese team to ensure no more 'problematic' (gay male) characters are added.

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You really, really need to re-read what he posted.

When he says they've worked more closely so that similar problems do not occur, he's talking about not having discrepancies make their way in and that the Japanese and EN/FR/DE versions are much closer.

Claiming that means they are making sure no more problematic/gay characters are added is, quite simply, a leap in logic not supported by anything in his post.

I actually enjoy the company of a pervy guy friend, gay or not, who's really really really dependable when problematic times come.
I'm not an American.

See, I would be really happy for this appology if I thought it was sincere, and that such ridiculous changes would be avoided in the future, but I already know it's not true. Sure, you fixed Haurchefant for the 3.0 quests, but other unnecessary changes were made instead, like Matoya's picking on Alphinaud which didn't really happen in Japanese.

And even if you DO intend to do better going forward, that doesn't fix the fact that the version we've received is wrong, and apparently acknowledged by Yoshi-P himself as such. When can we expect a more accurate version of the script to be made available for those of us who want it? I recognize that it would be unfeasible to change the voice work already in place, but an alternate, more faithful text pack to go along with the Japanese voices would surely be possible.

I like the EN version so i am happy anyway. When people told me about the JP version im glad they changed it and they made the right call too be honest to do it. There may be some who like it but you need to look at it at a larger scale they are the localisation team not just the translation team, they need to make it fit for the western audience and most people in the west won't like how the JP version is. Anyone i have told about this they have said they are glad they changed it. After saying that though i can understand how unprofessional it was.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

You're way off base with that thought. Posting it in this topic is a disgraceful response to a sincere apology, and lengthy account of what was changed and why.

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I completely agree, even as someone vehemently opposed to the over-localisation that happens at times. There's no need for personal attacks just because someone made and publicly acknowledged a mistake. There was no need for John to say anything at all, and he clearly put a lot of effort into trying to share his point of view. Jumping on him for that sends a terrible message back to the team who are working so hard.

I think the reason this problem is so much more noticeable is that it's no longer 1995 and companies can't make major changes to games without people knowing. Especially in an online game where most people are playing with people from other regions, using different versions of the game simultaneously, and expecting to talk about the things that happen in real time. 'The west' is a massive place spanning a huge amount of different cultures, so what works for one person is never going to work for everyone in the same way. Robbing us of sharing in the same experience as our friends has been frustrating, but if they are listening to the feedback and trying to be less heavy-handed in future then I wish them nothing but the best.

Thank you for the post, Corvinoobus! This explanation means a lot to me and from the replies it is evident most people share the same sentiment. Thank you for the hard work and passion you put in this game! As a translator myself I have always been amazed by the quality of the translations here.
I admit being confused by the differences in Haurchefant's localization, wondering which version should I consider his "true self", and came to the conclusion that to really know him one has to watch all four versions. The character is great in all of them, though I have to admit the German Haurchefant being my favourite. I am biased towards the German version, the lines there just seem to tell more compared to the English, which generally keeps the dialogue simpler and shorter. I stress again that this is my personal bias, I am not saying one version is better than the other. From my experience Germans do prefer to elaborate their sentences :).

I was wondering why no one knew what I was talking about when I said that Haurchefant was kinda nutty and a douchebag but super cool.
Like the fact that he was your best friend and fully supported you as such was still clear in the Japanese version but his personality and the fact that he makes your character make wtf faces was all part of the fun!
I never got to see English Haurchefant...but Japanese Haurchefant was so cool!
Then again, I love his archetype in Japanese media so maybe that's why I wasn't thrown off by it.

Thank you so much for the EN version. Great call and keep up the good work!

You guys are fantastic. Honestly, I think the NA localisation team is my favourite thing about this game, by a fairly wide margin. I know you can't please everyone all the time, and I know how frustrating that must be both for you and the people left cold by whatever work is in question, but I just want to say I loved everything about his character and I think you guys did a fantastic job, and I really appreciate that you took the time to explain what was going on (since I'm really curious about that kind of thing!)

As a gay guy who gets super frustrated by characters in elvaan-accuracy range of the original JP, I also do appreciate that you took the time to be concerned about problematic portrayals that wouldn't come across right in English, and I think you did a FANTASTIC job with him and all of his dialogue.

...now excuse me while I cry in a corner for a while ;_;

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problematic

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FFXIV EN Lead

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(((('A'))))

I don't think you did poorly in creating a new personality for Haurchefant.

I take issue with the fact you changed it at all

Every. Single. Localization team constantly throws around the word "Problematic" these days like it's their god given duty to protect us from the evil quirks of JP culture.

He also drastically changed lady iceheart's personality, altered the personality and lore behind Midgardsormr, etc. Every single time, when he was forced to make these characters more like their japanese counterparts they became vastly more popular with the EN playerbase. He's just horrible at his job.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

See, I would be really happy for this appology if I thought it was sincere, and that such ridiculous changes would be avoided in the future, but I already know it's not true. Sure, you fixed Haurchefant for the 3.0 quests, but other unnecessary changes were made instead, like Matoya's picking on Alphinaud which didn't really happen in Japanese.

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That scene wasn't funny, as intended. It was incredibly awkward. I felt so bad for alphinaud. :/ It was like going over to your friend's house to watch a movie and his mother making you watch his potty training videos instead.

I really liked the EN version of Haurchefant; I watched some of the JP dialogue online and felt that he was a more authentic character in the EN version. Later plot developments were more moving than they would have been if he were just a silly trope.

While the apology and attention to this issue are greatly appreciated, unfortunately, parts of this letter limit my hope for improvement on this issue in the future, namely this:

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Originally Posted by Corvinoobus

If we strongly believe that a significant deviation is warranted, we consult with the team leads beforehand, and then we do our utmost to minimize the complications.

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Hasn't the need for apology/explanatory self-justification over this issue multiple times now made it clear that "significant deviation" shouldn't be warranted 99.9% of the time? Fans across all language clients should be playing the same game, not "significant deviations" of the same game. Instead of "minimizing complications" arising from deviations, how about you just don't deviate? I imagine in certain cases, yes, not deviating might be "problematic"--but is undermining the trust of many fans with inaccurate translations not also problematic?

Many people on this thread have noted that they really enjoyed the EN version of Haurchefant, but I can't help wondering whether they would have enjoyed him as much if changes were not made to bring him "gradually closer to that of the JP Haurchefant" over later patches and into Heavensward... I imagine that many of the people who loved him by the end of his EN version would have loved the JP version too, if that was the version they'd gotten from the very beginning and watched develop into a strong ally alongside their character.

Rather than making controversial choices on behalf of the players, maybe it would be better to let the players make those choices for themselves--given that people will never all agree on anything anyway, eliminating the "problematic" material from a game such as this one is utterly impossible. Personally, I think it would be best to stop trying to make characters and plot lines more palatable to an imaginary unified EN audience and instead just let the fans decide who they want to be fans of based on the original writers' work.

Please.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

He also drastically changed lady iceheart's personality, altered the personality and lore behind Midgardsormr, etc. Every single time, when he was forced to make these characters more like their japanese counterparts they became vastly more popular with the EN playerbase. He's just horrible at his job.

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You're going off some misinformation here; Midgardsormr's dialogue was written by Michael Christopher Koji-Fox, not John Crow, please stop blaming him for everything you personally didn't like.

Also I disagree with pretty much every opinion you've had but since you're entitled to them I'll leave it at that.

I wouldn't apologize, I thought Haurchefaunt was great as he was and I wouldn't change him just to be more on the personality of the JP version. Sometimes changes are for the better and I think you made the right call.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Also I disagree with pretty much every opinion you've had but since you're entitled to them I'll leave it at that.

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Aw..! Lemme have my pre-programmed romances. Let's face it. with a perosnality like mine how else is a man supposed to find me attractive?

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

"Problematic"

Game is rated T for Teen. If the people playing this game can handle executing the insane (early Ifrit-related scenario quests), pirate sex slaves (Sastasha), and child abuse (Dark Knight quest line), then they can handle a guy who loves muscles and adventurers' bodies. Please remember that FF doesn't need the Nintendo seal of approval anymore. You don't have to change pubs to cafes or prayers to wishes for fear of offending parents or the religious. Likewise, you don't need to change characters like Haurchefant because you're afraid of offending the easily offended. They're going to find something to be offended about anyway. It might even do them some good to have the "Whoa this guy is weird" reaction before realizing that he's one of your staunchest allies.

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Pretty much this thank you

Haurchefant saw the hero as a brother or sister person. i have really siblings i like Haurchefant as he is. sometime sibling have hard on they younger siblings. This truly how sibling are, you see there are such thing as sibling that go beyond blood or every family. Haurchefant is example of this. To be honest i cried when he died. the term sometime is brother of different mother in american. Final Fantasy remind us that friendship can go to point of sibleship that good thing. i would encourage the dev team to leave Haurchefant alone he good as he is.