How would Red Mage fit in this game?

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Originally Posted by Averax

that sounds cumbersome.

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Saved me when the game made me do a whole dungeon while MINI'd :(
/nightmareflashbacks

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I'm just saying that it's practical for a tank to wear heavy armor, so they can be durable and can take hits better. The magic you've mentioned is a possibility (except the air one. That's not tanking, but evasion.)

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The point of a tank is to improve the balance of incoming and outgoing raid damage through mob-holding. As long as you reduce raid damage taken by holding enemy attention and causing their attacks to be less effective, you're a tank. Generally a tank will also seek to improve raid damage dealt through facilitating positional and AoEs as well, but a kite-tank is still a tank. Evasion is tanking just as much as standing there and taking the hit to your face (assuming you can take damage when hit in the face than someone else would take if you hadn't). And as for armor types, if it works, it works. It doesn't have to depend solely on the Defense stat any more than a Warrior would have to depend on a damage taken down stat. It'll need eHP, but the sources of that can be anything.

That said, I'll agree that neither RDM's armor and weapon or arsenal seem particularly tank-oriented. *Blocks dullahan blade with a steel toothpick.* *Blasts enemy with an array of offensive attacks and utility... to survive (without kiting).*

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Yes, but I was talking about it in its aesthetic point of view.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The point of a tank is to improve the balance of incoming and outgoing raid damage through mob-holding. As long as you reduce raid damage taken by holding enemy attention and causing their attacks to be less effective, you're a tank. Generally a tank will also seek to improve raid damage dealt through facilitating positional and AoEs as well, but a kite-tank is still a tank. Evasion is tanking just as much as standing there and taking the hit to your face (assuming you can take damage when hit in the face than someone else would take if you hadn't). And as for armor types, if it works, it works.

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I'd rather a Blink Tank than a Kite Tank. I'm not sold on the effectiveness of a Blink Tank in XIV, but a Kite Tank would drive me up the freaking Wall trying to cast or score positionals. And wouldn't work against enemies that can attack within their entire combat zone.

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Originally Posted by Kassiekane

You see people saying left and right they want Red Mage in this game, and Yoshida may have probably hinted it in the Rising, but I've come to question how exactly would it fit in this game. Also, let's just assume its not going to be anything like it is in FFXI, since the FFXIV team is displaying a repeating behavior of giving classic jobs a different flavor.

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*points to sig* Here's a place to start. >.>

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In one of the somewhat older live letters, Yoshida said that they are only going to make 2 jobs per expansion from now on. For the sake of balance, I don't believe they will release a dps + healer or dps + tank, it would most likely be dps + dps in one expansion and then tank + healer in the next. Meaning in 4.0 we will most likely get 2 dps jobs. If the Rising is anything to go by, Red Mage and Samurai would be next.

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I'll continue to argue that we need more jobs that can believably tank, and SAM fits that idea quite well (as I've said before, if you want to make SAM a DPS, you can but you'd need to base it more on this rather than this).

With that in mind, RDM could be a melee DPS with utility, BLU could come in as a sort of caster whose damage partly counts as blunt damage (to create synergy between MNK and another job).

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Well there's just one problem... It's still a Red Mage. And I speak for every single iteration of Red Mage throughout the Final Fantasy franchise. Red mages are not just black mages with a sword, even though they can cast black magic. Same thing with white magic. Red Mages have always been a jack of all trades job; a Swiss army knife with every tool the party needs - including dps. So with this taken into consideration, this makes Red Mage living up to its glory much harder in a game as rigid as FFXIV. If the FFXIV team and certain people in the community think they've had enough of the summoner complaining & backlash, then they are woefully unprepared for what would happen if they made red mage just another caster.

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This is only "difficult" if you're bent on seeing it be a middle-of-the-road hybrid like in the console FFs. Summoner has proven the devs are willing to bend the concept of a job to make it work in an MMO, and I'd see no reason why that principle wouldn't apply to RDM. In fact, I think it'd be more important to apply that idea to RDM than to any other job because of how it works in the console FFs.

We know we don't want another refresh bot. I personally want to stab things with a fencing sword while having the option to off-heal (provided the job has built-in limits on it) and either mixing attack magic with sword swings or imbuing weapons with magic damage; maybe even having extremely limited ranged options via attack magic (either being really expensive or requiring procs to use).

I'd do it like Summoner. Utility DPS. Presumably not a "Support DPS" like Bard/MCH, but one with a Heal Spell ((Which, unless it is % based like the old Lustrate, will eventually be rendered near useless)) and a bunch of utility, on top of having respectable damage. I'd prefer it to mix up Spells and attacks rather than elemental spells, so Mage Knight can still be a thing, but I suppose with Fists of Earth, Wind, and Fire, that boat has already sailed. And of course a Spell combo system to get Dual Cast in there. Though when they do put it in, assuming they don't just forget about dualcast, It'll probably be some buff you get at level 50.

I, personally, would like to see another job that does blunt damage. If I were to design red mage, I would make it a DPS job that uses a 1H mace for blunt damage. I know a mace is not iconic to the red mage job but they have used them before. I envision it wearing scale armor similar to dragoon as it would be a melee DPS. Optionally, it can equip paladin shields.

Play style would include generating combo points on an enemy (similar to WoW's rogue) and using said combo points to cast AOE spells (black and white), which can be used in conjunction with Double Cast, an ability with a 60s cooldown. It would also have access to enspell, barspell, and enspike abilities. Ideally, I would also like to give them an in-battle resurrection ability.

However, the problem then comes in selecting the main stat for this class. I would select it a STR class but its spells could be percentage based as opposed to potency based, thereby eliminating the need for focusing on INT or MND.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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You're missing the point. It would be stupid to release just a tank and a dps without a healer at an expansion. Being limited to 2 jobs per expansion, we have to first look at what roles do we need before looking at the history of the job. This is the mindstate the devs were in when they made Dark Knight a tank. The job's history provides opportunity.

As of the moment we need a caster dps. The reason why I said it could have a stance system is because if both sam and rdm are released, there would be 4 melee, 3 caster, 2 support. If Red Mage could fill the roll of both caster and support, then the roll counter evens out at 3. Just like how there's 2 barrier healers and 2 regen healers even though there's only 3 healer in total. The history of red mage being a jack of all trades provides this opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Kassiekane

You're missing the point. It would be stupid to release just a tank and a dps without a healer at an expansion. Being limited to 2 jobs per expansion, we have to first look at what roles do we need before looking at the history of the job.

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We can actually do with more DPS options at this point. We won't really need another tank or healer in the rosters for a while, as the current ratio is 3:3:7 (which is actually pretty good in terms of role distribution).

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As of the moment we need a caster dps.

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And there's plenty of places to find a caster DPS. Blue Mage being one. Geomancer being another. You could also dig up a one-shot job like Pictomancer (AKA Relm from FFVI) or even create a brand new job for it.

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If Red Mage could fill the roll of both caster and support, then the roll counter evens out at 3. Just like how there's 2 barrier healers and 2 regen healers even though there's only 3 healer in total.

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The roll counter doesn't need to be perfectly even.

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The history of red mage being a jack of all trades provides this opportunity.

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The job's is a mix of sword and magic. The jack of all trades thing is a console implementation that works there because you don't have to constantly compete with other players nor are you subject to the expectations of anyone but yourself. Turn-based combat doesn't lend itself to proper hybrid gameplay, either.

There's templates to base the job on without it being a total disservice like FFXI's RDM was. Several of us have pointed to WoW's retribution paladin and enhance shaman for this reason; those are actual working hybrids that bring melee and magic to the fray while still bringing their utility AND justifying their spots as DPS.

I'ts probably been stated by someone, but I'm all for RDM being a support DPS, but with the option to go melee or range. RDM would start melee and have some spells that act as aura's to buff allies, and then around 50 gain WM/GB equivilent where they go caster mode and switch to all spell damage.

Honestly we don't need another tank or healer in the next expansion.

I believe RDM would fit nicely as a healer in this game. This is probably not a popular opinion, but when you consider how tanks/dps/healers actually function in this game it makes the most sense.

RDM are a jack of all trades with a mix of black and white magic and a touch of melee, yes? In FFXIV DPS are always DPS. DPS checks in this game are too strict for a DPS job that isn't DPSing 100% of the time. Healers, on the other hand, are basically DPS that also heal. Good healers spend just as much time healing as DPSing, so in that sense RDM is a perfect fit.

In 4 man content a RDM will be just like the other healers. They can mix in plenty of flashy DPS attacks between needing to heal. Maybe a system where melee attacks are chained into magic attacks or larger heals. Obviously this would not be a good choice for healers who don't like DPSing in dungeons (shame on them anyway). For 8 man content I see RDM being used to support their partner healer with regens, shields and buffs, throwing in heals as needed. They would not have as great healing potential as a WHM, for instance, especially for AOE healing. But they will be very good as a 2nd healer and be able to deliver good DPS while they're at it.

I just don't see how RDM would work as a DPS job. How do you differentiate them from other DPS? When/why would they ever use white magic? And it's kind of the same with tanking. RDM was never about being a front line tank, they're just less squishy than their counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

In FFXIV DPS are always DPS. DPS checks in this game are too strict for a DPS job that isn't DPSing 100% of the time.

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Of course DPS classes would focus on their role, just like tanks focus on tanking and healers focus on healing. This doesn't mean that you can't give DPS jobs situational utility where it makes sense.

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I just don't see how RDM would work as a DPS job. How do you differentiate them from other DPS? When/why would they ever use white magic?

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Rapier, the hat, access to (limited and situational) off-heals, the hat, having access cross class spells from THM and CNJ, the hat, and being a job that's not about fists or spears or daggers. Oh, and the hat.

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Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

I believe RDM would fit nicely as a healer in this game. This is probably not a popular opinion, but when you consider how tanks/dps/healers actually function in this game it makes the most sense.

RDM are a jack of all trades with a mix of black and white magic and a touch of melee, yes? In FFXIV DPS are always DPS. DPS checks in this game are too strict for a DPS job that isn't DPSing 100% of the time. Healers, on the other hand, are basically DPS that also heal. Good healers spend just as much time healing as DPSing, so in that sense RDM is a perfect fit.

I just don't see how RDM would work as a DPS job. How do you differentiate them from other DPS? When/why would they ever use white magic? And it's kind of the same with tanking. RDM was never about being a front line tank, they're just less squishy than their counterparts.

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First off, it'd probably be more in the NIN or Bard range of dps... there's a fair bit of separation there. As for the DPS dpsing at all times, well, let's consider:

When I save my Leg Sweep for a stun that could wreck a tank, am I healing, or DPS, or even support (given that the healer can now dps longer)? When I save a Blunt Arrow for an AoE that would force melee to run out, am I support, or DPS? It's not quite so black and white. Ultimately it's all of the above, which equates to 'once past (survival) threshold, dps'. If a RDM's white magic can ever be strong enough as to improve raid dps by its usage, then it contributes DPS.

(Granted, if balanced significantly around that, it will be niched out of or back from dps checks that have no (unavoidable/tanked) damage taken. That would indeed be a bummer, much like a healer competing against a caster to destroy a falling comet (with no raid damage from other ones reaching ground). One would hope the caster would win.)

You seem to have example solutions for a DPS being able to have a sizeable healing component (one capable of raising raid dps by its usage) right there (chaining melee attacks for bigger burstier heals/attacks). I'm not sure why you'd think it impossible. If you still think that it would be indifferentiable, though, let me just play the most simple form of devil's advocate -- how would RDM really stand out from other healers?

I'm not saying that it has to be one role or the other, only that the two roles need not be as cleanly split. Consider also: (and this is largely because every healer in this game is basically a dps with added healing abilities) any DPS can qualify a DPS as long as it provides an increase to raid dps (it has little personal requirements unless it needs to solo an add or is sent into quarantine, etc.); a healer, on the other hand, needs to meet a certain margin of output to be able to qualify or, in the end, just to keep a group alive. Ultimately though, I guess we're just whatever parts of our toolkits we can't use otherwise (Sentinel, Divine Seal, Raging Strikes...). Unless of course, some job wants to actually make every CD multi-use... : O

Played ffxi wayyy too much... smn and drk were killed off by this game for me. I have a feeling if rdm and blu come to this game, they will be unbearable compared to ffxi's versatility. People cry about balance all the times in this game so we never gonna see any strong versatility in ffxiv. I admitt though that scholar was a neat twist in this game so there's still a chance they will turn out neat.