How would Red Mage fit in this game?

[Kassiekane]

You see people saying left and right they want Red Mage in this game, and Yoshida may have probably hinted it in the Rising, but I've come to question how exactly would it fit in this game. Also, let's just assume its not going to be anything like it is in FFXI, since the FFXIV team is displaying a repeating behavior of giving classic jobs a different flavor.

Assuming RDM will be a dps, let's briefly examine the places each dps job has now:

Dragoon/Monk are melees with high single-target dps. Dragoon has a normal gcd and wears light armor, monk has a fast gcd and wears leather.
Bard/Mechanist are support dps.
black mage/ summoner are casters that have high aoe dps.
When ninja was released, it was a 3rd competitor of melee dps, even more a competitor of monk since it has a fast gcd and wears leather. Now in 3.0, it lost a little bit of dps in favor of aggro management utility, but its not a full support dps like bard and mechanist

In one of the somewhat older live letters, Yoshida said that they are only going to make 2 jobs per expansion from now on. For the sake of balance, I don't believe they will release a dps + healer or dps + tank, it would most likely be dps + dps in one expansion and then tank + healer in the next. Meaning in 4.0 we will most likely get 2 dps jobs. If the Rising is anything to go by, Red Mage and Samurai would be next.

Now if its true that we are getting both Samurai and Red Mage, we would first have to question what role Samurai would take. Again, we are assuming they will not work anything like it did in FFXI. What I'm thinking, is that it would be a melee competitor to dragoon, meaning light armor and slow gcd. That would once again establish 3 melee dps that are fighting for the top in terms of single target dps. Therefore, we can assume that Red Mage will not focus on single target dps.

The next thing is that it would need to fill a role that will balance out what we have so far. We can forget it being a melee dps; since by then we'd have 4 of them. What we also have is 2 support dps and 2 caster dps. SE just released a support dps the mechanist, so, logically speaking, red mage must be a caster! Clearly this would be the answer, right?

Well there's just one problem... It's still a Red Mage. And I speak for every single iteration of Red Mage throughout the Final Fantasy franchise. Red mages are not just black mages with a sword, even though they can cast black magic. Same thing with white magic. Red Mages have always been a jack of all trades job; a Swiss army knife with every tool the party needs - including dps. So with this taken into consideration, this makes Red Mage living up to its glory much harder in a game as rigid as FFXIV. If the FFXIV team and certain people in the community think they've had enough of the summoner complaining & backlash, then they are woefully unprepared for what would happen if they made red mage just another caster.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying all hope is lost. There are some things about XIV's design that could allow enough room for Red Mage to exist.

- It could fill the role of a caster dps and a support dps at the same time, using the exact same stance system that Astrologian uses to either fill the role of a regen or barrier healer. I think this would be the best route to take, as this would simultaneously fit in with the balance of roles (4 melee, 2 support, 2 caster, 1 that can switch between caster and support) as well as allowing Red Mage to live up to its fame without being overpowered.

- They can give Red Mage a weak healing spell. It won't hurt. 2.0 Summoner and 3.0 Paladin have proven this already.

- Just because it would have to fill the caster roll for the sake of balance doesn't necessarily mean that they have to wear cloth and have cast times on all of their spells. A 'spell' could just mean running up to a bunch of mobs and wave your sword, very similar to the way a summoner has to stay with melee range to use Miasma II. If the red mage does in fact use instant cast spells in close range, then they can also utilize meaningful auto attacks (since they do use a sword), which would both separate its playstyle from other casters and match the theme of red mage.

- Additionally, Red Mage having both freecasted and hardcasted spells works on multiple levels.
For one, it would match the kind of mobility that Bard/Machinists have, which is relevant if Red Mage has a support stance. As you all know, BRD/MCH can switch on a casting stance for dps which can be turned off for mobility. RDM doesn't necessarily need to have a stance like this, but instead they can have two different levels of skills (i.e. Dia / Dia II) in which one is instant cast and weaker, as the other one is hardcasted and stronger.
For two, it makes sense as a competitor to summoner. Summoner does a lot of damage through off-gcd skills, as well as having Ruin II, giving them much more mobility than BLM. Red Mage can be very similar to summoner in terms of mobility by having some of their skills instant cast.

- There is also the possibility of competing against Ninja as a mid-level dps.

Keep in mind though, that in 4.0 the caster DPS could be something else and everything I said would be invalidated.

[MetalheroD]

I've always wanted RDM to be a tank, on the grounds that a tank does less damage than a DPS, and usually has some level of healing, though not as much as a healer, which fits well with their "Jack Of All Trades, Master of None" Shtick. Preferably with a rapier.

[Kurogaea]

It won't, unless the whole idea of the redmage is changed or by some miracle of shattered hubris in the divine trinity, this class would be able to break the bonds of tanks, whms, and dps roles and be able to be all of them at the same time. Queue times be damned.

[Kassiekane]

It won't, unless the whole idea of the redmage is changed or by some miracle of shattered hubris in the divine trinity, this class would be able to break the bonds of tanks, whms, and dps roles and be able to be all of them at the same time. Queue times be damned.

I always thought white mage was a job and not a role. :P

Jokes aside, I don't believe RDM is impossible to fit in, rigid game design aside. It doesn't have to be a tank or healer to be able to live up to its name.

[Shurrikhan]

I always thought white mage was a job and not a role. :P

If more people could see any given job as the job itself instead of its role, then RDM would probably do just fine in this game. Alas...
(Well, that and having enough complexity and undermechanics in combat that we're just putting our potencies in differently named abilities with very few additional effects...)

My two cents: High-versatility DPS with supportive functions, a bit free but most at cost of their dps. DPS values right between Bard/MCH and NIN.
That said, given the ranged jobs' all too often waste of its utility outside of caster-stacking its actual "utility" would probably be much more useful and flexible than either of the actual "support" jobs, at least until those two are revised.

What archetype heals, does decent damage, uses attacks like melee?

My first thought --> supportive/high-utility DPS (e.g. Retribution Paladin)

(Now, had it been written "self-heals" and "only decent damage" then I might have thought Tank...)

Whatever happens...pls move away from the homogenization. Omg the homogenization. Can we have balance and variety? Is it feasible in this system? Idk, really am asking. I hope that samurai is not just drg with a sword. I hope RDM isnt monk/blm with a sword.

There would need to be a way for the unique portions of skillsets to be more than just different ways to generate higher raw outputs (healing/damage), which our current game design doesn't really lend itself to. Essentially, there just needs to be a lot more undermechanics and reasons to use them. For instance, with enough undermechanics there would be no reason for my Savage Blade to be identical to his Skull Sunder, nor my Gust Blade to his Vorpal Thrust, my Cure to his Physic. Yet at present they're all just 200 potency attacks and 400 potency heals, respectively. No more, no less. The game revolves only around potencies and flat debuffs, with no connection between the two, and typically no way to use our potencies for proportionate utility. It's hard to call for a place for something that would rely on utility or versatility to be competitive in a game that revolves primarily around raid dps (even if the ability to deal high raid dps does come down to a matter of opportunities, e.g. a tankier tank allowing healer dps, a burstier healer allowing tank stance-dancing, AST/SCH buffs, Trick Attack, etc.)

Now, if you're just asking for a job that can, say, intersperse healing (assuming his stats scale well enough as to be future-proofed) among his/her dps, with enough potency to be worth bringing, so that you can feel a bit like support (rather than actually having to be support-minded even in your DPS), or for its combat/rotational mechanics to move away from DRG's combo system or BLM's AF/UI system, then yeah, that's very doable.

A better question would be this; "What will be the two cross classes that red mage would have." This is how you can tell what type of job red mage would be. Id guess cnj/thm with its own set of sword slashing abilities and buffs/spells, kind of like how DRK uses gld/mrd.

By the time RDM is likely to appear, our cross-class system may have well been modified or replaced outright. With the current system, I suppose that would depend a lot on whether they have heals, from what stat those heals scale, and how strong they're supposed to be at base-line and how strong are they supposed to be when at optimal use (raid-priority and personal dps priority). Depending on how their heals are done, CNJ may be necessary for Cleric Stance (though this would mean a permanent 20% deduction on heals to be made up for). Outside of that though I'd assume GLD, ARC, or BLM if it has anything worth Swiftcasting that it doesn't have job mechanics to deal with.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I still believe red mage should be a tank. It's always been one of the tankiest mage jobs since the beginning, too.

[Gilraen]

If anything I want for Red Mage to be Gridania's tank... only because we don't have one. T,T Make it spear-based (Red Mage, using a spear? Heresy!) because then it could use lancer as it's base giving access to medium and a small selection of heavy armor.

[Naraku_Diabolos]

I always thought as well that RDM could fit in the roles of either tank, healer, or DPS depending on what you want to do. When BLU was released in FFXI, and depending on what skills you equipped, you could be any role as well. I know it was stupid to be a RDM/WAR for soloing on there, but I had a ton of fun and utility being that combo. I hit pretty good and survived with my defense, and magic was reliable. If FFXI goes F2P after PS2/X360 support is ceased, I'd play the crap out of that game as well as this. I'll probably start a new character then instead of my original one.

[AskaRay]

For RDM I want my rapier and sexy hat.

So. Whichever role can do those. I don't care.

[ErikMynhier]

Ok, a tank.....

3 stances instead of the normal two, MT, OT, Support.

MT - Boosted arggo, boosted defense but at 15% instead of the normal 20% because it adds a "Damage MP" effect which makes damage effect the mana before eating into the HP. The constant mana eating will add to the difficulty of holding hate making it balance. Alternatively keep it like the other MT poses and just give a damage mp skill.

OT - Normal stuff.

Support - For this to work I assume RDM would have a good PLD-like healing move as well as other Bard/Machinist like support skills. This stance would boost the effectiveness of healing and support skills on the RDM and party members.

Skills - main stats being VIT and INT for damage.

Fire Missile - Shield Lob, Tomahawk, exc
Frost Bite - Stunner
Electrocute - AoE Arggo
Healing Light - Self/party heal
exc

Tanks need heavy armor so do that, we can glamour and tanks have access to robes too so glamour is no big deal, just make the af gear sexy.

Rapiers/Sabers I think would be best. Single or duel-wield, either are good. I bet Ilberd turns out to be a RDM, and its a job from Ala Mhigo... (blood mage).