Now, see, I fully recognize the ability of hardcore raiders. I mean, first week clears of Second and Final Coil don't just happen. It's the 'hardcore raiders' that I question. Note the 's. These are the people that whine and complain about the 24 player raids dropping upgrade materials and Echo being 'nerfed' into older raids. The players that give real hardcore raiders a bad name, essentially.
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11-01-2015, 02:32 PMGilraen
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11-01-2015, 02:38 PMMalevictonI feel like you're trying to describe Poetics Princesses/Soldiery Scrubs/etc, but I think you're mixing some stuff up. Those people are usually overjoyed about echo and easily obtainable gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilraen
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11-01-2015, 03:06 PMImmut
God no. No. Just fucking no. No more nerfs. At some point players just have to stop being drooling goddamn retards and learn to play a video game. When is that point going to be? SE can't keep making shit easier when people complain that they can't complete content while at the same time talking on the phone, putting their kids to bed, watching a movie, and answering the door for their pizza. The playerbase is a bottomless vortex of suck. It just keeps going down. You will NEVER be able to make it easy enough for everybody.
You do not have a god given right to beat the game. That is not how games work. -
11-01-2015, 03:22 PMZephera
If anything, we need more difficult content gatekeeping the bad players out, the bad players tend to focus on gear strength and think that having it high enough means they can ignore the mechanics, when they realize that is not he case they blame the content for being too hard because their gear alone won't let them brute force it.
I've only been playing this game for 2 months but I don't find anything in the game approaches a level of "too hard" as long as you have the capability to think about what will be the best way to approach a specific situation. The only thing I find legitimately "hard" is some of the absurd drop rates on rarer items but that's an issue of forcing longevity through grinding rather than through actual difficulty.
I'd rather have more content that requires me and others to think fast and move quickly, we don't need content you can beat simply by whacking a boss to death while ignoring everything else. -
11-01-2015, 09:59 PMArchaell
As much as I'd like to have better difficulty curve, in this community it is something really hard to do. That's why we should think about solutions which don't prevent players from experiencing the story, while avoiding the nerf bat.
It might sound evil, but I would go with story for free and rewards for a little bit of work. By this I mean difficulty level of casual who reads tooltips and is able to use the skills in correct sequence. Let's say 70% of optimal performance.
Right now content is being nerfed to the ground and that's the easy way out. I think it would be better to keep the difficulty up while giving players meaningful rewards for it.
Another option would be to have two difficulties of dungeons. One that would for example give you 200% of exp/loot/tomes etc. and one nerfed. To prevent queue times, players who select the harder one could be put into the easy one while keeping the increasesd rewards. Of course this would need harsher penalty for leaving the duties. -
11-01-2015, 10:49 PMTwilite
Just..no to all of this. When I came back to the game this year in april, those harsh fights as a new player are what made me into the decent player I am today. This is a bit much even for some of you. Come on..
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11-01-2015, 11:26 PMKolaina
after he posted
it is my conclusion he's a complete troll, a sadist, or bothQuote:
Originally Posted by Archaell
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11-01-2015, 11:30 PMTheodric
I'd much prefer to see new players coddled in such a manner than seeing dungeons nerfed for everybody across the board. The developers need to be very, very careful because there's a big chance that they're going to sow the seeds of contempt between experienced players and inexperienced players if they continue to nerf anything remotely challenging across the board.
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11-01-2015, 11:33 PMGilraenYeah, he seems overly convinced that new players are coming into this game from having played only one other game, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. The only players I've seen that are even remotely like this... are the ones he's supposedly representing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolaina
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11-01-2015, 11:36 PMArchaellThat's sarcasm with a lil bit of cynicism. Just now I have finished a dungeon with a bot in my group, which is exactly the point of the quote: Some players are doing the same amount of contribution as bots. The issue is that somebody has to do the work - otherwiese the run fails. Simply to put I dislike exploiting of others for own gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolaina
Would the run fail if everybody put in same amount of effort/contribution as this guy? Yes/No. I consider it exploiting if the answer is yes. -
11-01-2015, 11:43 PMadn
Where is the fun in having everything handed to you just because you showed up to participate? Isn't it more fun to have to work/struggle a little so you can enjoy the feeling of accomplishment when you clear it?
I can't think of a single MSQ instance that needs to be nerfed. Making any of them any easier would turn them into LITERAL faceroll instances. Aetherochemical might be a little tricky but come on, it's the final challenge, it's supposed to be a little tough. -
11-01-2015, 11:47 PMKolainaim in the practice of offering advice, then, if no attempt is made, kicking them from the party. or when i healed the vault last boss, a ninja just would not dodge. come orbs i said "if you want me to have mp for the rest of the fight, i suggest u start dodging" and when he didnt... i let him die. was to late to kick him but good bye last boss exp. sometimes people need a little bit of a tougher approach. not be carried and made believe thats okQuote:
Originally Posted by Archaell
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11-01-2015, 11:55 PMArchaellI also realised that it is a bot during the last boss of the Vault... till then I thought that it was your usual monk who couldn't do positionals, but during the fight the player was running around the place even when the horses were not on so it was obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolaina
To my remark about botting being bad, I got the answer "Why should botting be bad?" Wtf... This brings an interesting question how many bad players are actually more botting than bad. -
11-01-2015, 11:59 PMGilraenThat is a very gross assumption. I've never run into a single new player that was THAT bad. Not even 'new' players I've seen are that bad. The only ones I have seen that were are those that would fall into a very different category, none of them proc'd the new player message on start. Yeah, I'm convinced, pretty clear you aren't talking from a position of concern for new players nor even 'new' players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaell
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11-02-2015, 12:05 AMArchaellI am talking from the position of "not making content more easier than it is".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilraen
Trials and dungeons are getting nerfed due to numbers of failed runs. I presume that portion of these is related to new players. It is not entire player base that is bad, but they are more prone to be bad, due to the practice of getting through the content through sheer iLevel difference. Basically the roulette is great idea, but the impatience of the high level players is teaching new players bad habits, which imo results in more and more instances being nerfed.
Edit:
To make myself clear. I consider nerfing content only when there are first timers lesser evil than nefing it for all the players. -
11-02-2015, 12:22 AMGilraen
Sigh... again... old content is old. Noone's running it cause it's old. It's why we have Roulette, to get people running old content again. You're trying to hide a 'git gud' cry behind the guise of 'think of the children'. Lets look at a story dungeon that also serves as a leveling dungeon, Haukke Manor. Taking your 'theme park ride' mode the first time a player goes through it's more or less just an interactive walking simulator. In, out, on with everyone's life. But that player is still underleveled for the next dungeon so they go back but the ride is over... they will have to go through the dungeon like everyone else and noone would be the wiser that this player has returned knowing jack all about how the dungeon really is. Imagine, then, this very situation happening in EVERY dungeon that the story passes through. This is what we're all talking about when we say this is a very bad idea.
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11-02-2015, 02:18 AMShurrikhanYet the larger issues usually came from the cannons each still having a Biast on them, the cannon guys themselves having another mob or two, making them unable to quickly deploy snares and get back to shooting, mobs not being held in the boss's hitbox, etc. "Throw the switch! Turn the wheel! Pull the winch!" doesn't always work as well or as timely when people don't really understand what it is they're supposed to be making, let alone before the orders are being given. I don't want the new player to have to be told how to make things easier for themselves or how to make it so each person can actually perform their task, but without an overview given with some delivery method that's different from the overwhelmingly gameplay-irrelevant (e.g. 'must-skip-through-faster' text-blobs or 'that's for lore...' stand-by NPCs), we're kind of asking for some of these issues. I don't mean that idiomatically either; sometimes such issues can be fun, but they don't occur just because people are unable to understand when orders are given to them. It's more that the orders themselves can only reliably serve as cues. If you don't know the pattern or purpose, their value's shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane