MCH..The dying breed?

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Originally Posted by Alahra

They probably should have diversified their utility more, too. Personally, I've been pondering the idea of MCH providing the Piercing debuff, so that they don't necessitate a DRG, which would possibly make them a bit different from BRD in terms of favored party compositions.

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That would give MCH an extreme advantage over BRD in every situation, not just raiding. You would have to give BRD a piercing debuff also to balance it.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

That would give MCH an extreme advantage over BRD in every situation, not just raiding. You would have to give BRD a piercing debuff also to balance it.

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Not unless their damage was balanced around it, as much as drg and mnk are.
And if they did that, hyper charge on average still wouldn't be comparable to the boost from foe.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

That would give MCH an extreme advantage over BRD in every situation, not just raiding. You would have to give BRD a piercing debuff also to balance it.

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Not necessarily. WAR has the slashing debuff while PLD and DRK don't. Since you can get the slashing debuff from another source, WAR doesn't necessarily have an advantage over PLD and DRK (most of WAR's current advantages come from a better DPS skill kit and would still be there even if they didn't have the debuff themselves).

Since DRG still provides the Piercing debuff, it's not as though you could never use BRD again. It would just favor certain compositions, much the way NIN and WAR have synergy with one another right now.

And honestly, BRD would still be pretty attractive, as it provides slightly higher DPS, Foe Requiem, and support that's easier to use.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Not unless their damage was balanced around it, as much as drg and mnk are.
And if they did that, hyper charge on average still wouldn't be comparable to the boost from foe.

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Then the blunt/slash/piercing debuff should be removed entirely and just base potency around what it would be with it on. On all jobs, not just ranged DPS. Imagine MCH getting that move, then you have BRD that is balanced to compete with MCH that utilizes the debuff, now getting an advantage of higher DPS. Unless someone gives me a good reason why the debuffs have to stay, they seem more like a crutch than a utility.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Unless someone gives me a good reason why the debuffs have to stay, they seem more like a crutch than a utility.

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Their main purpose is to promote class synergies. The only one that, at present, is largely superfluous is Dragon Kick/Blunt Resist, since none of the other DPS jobs are Blunt damage (I think Ifrit is still Blunt, but that's small potatoes). That one isn't really utility and given that Dragon Kick already has another thing tied to it, it doesn't really serve a purpose right now. That would change if we got another Blunt job, though.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Their main purpose is to promote class synergies. The only one that, at present, is largely superfluous is Dragon Kick/Blunt Resist, since none of the other DPS jobs are Blunt damage (I think Ifrit is still Blunt, but that's small potatoes). That one isn't really utility and given that Dragon Kick already has another thing tied to it, it doesn't really serve a purpose right now. That would change if we got another Blunt job, though.

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Yes, but a lot of jobs offer utility beyond just those debuffs. DRG offers crit buffs, NIN offers Trick Attack, and so on. They offer the synergy with those abilities alone.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Yes, but a lot of jobs offer utility beyond just those debuffs. DRG offers crit buffs, NIN offers Trick Attack, and so on. They offer the synergy with those abilities alone.

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It's supposed to encourage synergy like having a bard to boost caster, dragoon to boost bard. Another way they could have gone about it was making MCH blunt (which isn't that far off, esp when you look at things like gauss round) so mnk isn't being selfish anymore.

Battle linanity and trick attack doesn't encourage synergy of classes since it boosts everyone and everything.
There's a couple more, but with the current set up of party metas that it becomes both a given and nessecity, can't clarify right now on a phone though.

Egis are also entirely magical now, down to even their auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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There are more jobs than DRG and NIN. I get it's purpose the debuffs, but it sometimes can offer strict synergy. Luckily BRD/MCH have support roles that are needed despite if they get piercing debuff or not. You two are not wrong by any means, I just like to see it handled better for right now and in the long run when more jobs come in.

Anyone have a decent glamour for MCH? I tried a Mustadio look, but there's no closed shirt body pieces...best was like a hemp tunic died yellow, and a pair of blue dyed kecks.

For reference:
http://www.animecourtyard.com/galler...76mustadio.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Anyone have a decent glamour for MCH? I tried a Mustadio look, but there's no closed shirt body pieces...best was like a hemp tunic died yellow, and a pair of blue dyed kecks.

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lv.60 chest piece from Nevereap and Fractal. any large brown gloves. If you have veteran rewards, Cloud pants dyed blue and Cloud shoes dyed brown.

Back home now, so I can look at each of the debuffs and why some of them work for the intention of synergy, and how some do not.

Slashing
This is only given by warriors and ninjas, and utilized by all tanks and ninjas. Disregard the fact that warrior is the off-tank to have (thus the application of slashing resistance is always there), it still has some synergy with ninja, because it allows the latter to exclude dancing edge from their rotation (which is less potency than AE)


Blunt
Is only given by monk and utilized by monk. They could have either given MCH blunt attacks, or even hybrid attacks (certain attacks like blank, gauss round, head graze, turrets, etc deal blunt damage, while other applicable skills like heartbreaker deal piercing, basically to match the animation/effects of said skills becuase not all of them appear piercing, not even clean shot) and MCH gets a skill that has the same debuff as dragon kick, either gauss round or another skill that requires ammounition or something. What this does is allow MCH to buff part of their dps (and not all of it), while giving MNKs the same synergy with MCH that exists with WAR:NIN, it allows them to opt out of using dragon kick which is effectively weaker than bootshine.

Piercing
Given by DRG, utilized by DRG, BRD and MCH. DRG is unique in the case that this debuff is applied as part of their regular rotation. If optimizing their dps was the case, they have absolutely no say in the matter because they have to do disembowel for chaos thrust. Because of that, there's really not much reason to give it to BRD/MCH because it only synergies with each other (and a typical party composition will not have both in the same party)

Magic
Is only given by BRD in the truest sense (hypercharge gives magic vulnerability, which stacks with resistance down). There can be other applications for this...such as dork knight through derilerium. Delirium as it is now, it's practically a joke. It doesn't offer blunt resistance and is effectively a useless skill with a monk in your party. You don't want to make it physical damage down if DRK is supposed to be the magic tank (opposed to PLD being the physical tank). There's not much reason to use delirium even outside of grit because it's a measly 10 extra potency (which then gets eclipsed by Dork Arts + Souleater). It's also the only combo finisher that does not have a dork arts effect, so why not attach a 10% magic resistance (not stackable with foe) down to it's DA effect, considering that DRK is also partially magic damage.

The greatest area of concern is the blunt resistance because it's only ever utilized by one class and has absolutely no synergy, but that als oboils back to MCH being an incredibly wasted potential when tehy could have made it blunt, or even a hybrid that can do blunt resistance down with -Int.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's not much reason to use delirium even outside of grit because it's a measly 10 extra potency (which then gets eclipsed by Dork Arts + Souleater). It's also the only combo finisher that does not have a dork arts effect, so why not attach a 10% magic resistance (not stackable with foe) down to it's DA effect, considering that DRK is also partially magic damage.

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Delirium is a staple for DRK Dps and one of the highest non healer raid wide mitigation tools in the game. Delirium and Dark Arts Soul eater are the only combos are drk should be using out of grit. 10 potency is 10 potency, that IS the reason to use it outside of grit. There is literally no reason to use the enmity combo here (and rarely a reason to use PS combo in grit) and if you are pushing dps as a drk and managing MP, Delirium will be used religiously after so many DA/soul eaters as it allows you to use both da/C&P and unload your DP without double dipping. The fact that Delirium the highest unmodified potency of any DRK combo is what makes it good.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

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It's only a mitigation tool if you don't have a MNK in the party (and becomes less effective if they were to actually design future content to favor paladin, like a raid-wide physical damage), otherwise it's 10 extra potency assuming no DA, and at the cost of extra mitigation via self-heal if done while in grit. I've also never really ran into that many circumstances where I can tank outside of grit and not have mana to do DA on every combo. I worded it wrong, but my primary point is that delerium is just really meh for what it is when you have a MNK in the party already, and is very small when the former is considered (as you said, its 10 potency, but 10 potency on something that you're going to be using exclusively for dps is going into the realm of negligible). It's splitting hairs but I hope I clarified where I was getting at.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The greatest area of concern is the blunt resistance because it's only ever utilized by one class and has absolutely no synergy, but that als oboils back to MCH being an incredibly wasted potential when tehy could have made it blunt, or even a hybrid that can do blunt resistance down with -Int.

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At this point it will likely be connected to a new job. Maybe one that uses a club or hammer.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's only a mitigation tool if you don't have a MNK in the party (and becomes less effective if they were to actually design future content to favor paladin, like a raid-wide physical damage), otherwise it's 10 extra potency assuming no DA, and at the cost of extra mitigation via self-heal if done while in grit. I've also never really ran into that many circumstances where I can tank outside of grit and not have mana to do DA on every combo. I worded it wrong, but my primary point is that delerium is just really meh for what it is when you have a MNK in the party already, and is very small when the former is considered (as you said, its 10 potency, but 10 potency on something that you're going to be using exclusively for dps is going into the realm of negligible). It's splitting hairs but I hope I clarified where I was getting at.

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I understand but the post is predicated on assumption. Groups with monks on my server are the exception as opposed to the rule. Statistically speaking you have a greater chance of not having one and having a drk gives even less of a reason to bring one. The regen by souleater is kinda meh tbh.

As far as using DA,SE on every combo as an OT, it's impossible to maintain as if you are blowing all your OGCDs on cool down you are accruing an MP deficit that will lead you to zero. You cant even dark arts/soul eater the entire 2:30 on faust popping BW on cool down. You will bottom out of MP before he dies and lose substantial dps. Delirium is a necessity if you are maxing out dps on DRK and undeniably one of the most valuable raid wide mitigation tools in the game. Splitting hairs is really assuming that a monk is going to be in the party all the time and that you can just DA/SE into infinity as an OT which just isn't mathematically possible.

The only reason I even said anything is because your post is loaded in bias towarsds your argument and isn't very realistic or objective.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

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I can concede that you can't maintain mana upkeep as an OT, but even then, there are select fights that have outgoing damage that'll still trigger your blood price even as an OT (fights that enforce you to tank swap anyway, so part-time OT?). Unless you're referring to full time OTing, in which case would that not be in the same realm of assumption as (not) having a monk?

Maybe my machinist does need a little "tune-up." In my defense, I have looked up much information on openers, managing cds, non gb vs gb, and overall machinist dps. My ilvl is 198 now, but I would\t mind a top machinist show me some stuff on Leviathan server if anyone is interested.

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Originally Posted by HM01

Maybe my machinist does need a little "tune-up." In my defense, I have looked up much information on openers, managing cds, non gb vs gb, and overall machinist dps. My ilvl is 198 now, but I would\t mind a top machinist show me some stuff on Leviathan server if anyone is interested.

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A lot of the things you can usually figure out on your own by taking a look at your skills and how they interact with each other. For example, what would be the best use of ammunition (and where would it be effectively wasted)? Whats the strongest weapon skill you can do that'll benefit from reassemble? There's a guide in this section on the forums, but it does not help much if you don't understand the "why" behind it.

At top.... Aiurily vids shows really good guide. Also I think this is just me in my case but my im ilvl 186 MCH and I can perform the opener really well that was provided in reloaded thred. It's really useful but I can honestly say this I'm shit garbage when it comes to MCH. I can perform well on dummy instances but on actuall dungeon.... The Fcking fractal lol boy it was so bad man took us 4 times to kill the final boss. So I siwtch back to mnk and destroyed, I guess what I'm trying to say is tht I've been playing mnk since 2.0 and I live and breath the way of the 100 fist so when I took on McH it was like learning how to ride a bike for the first time. May be your just not use to it and that u need to keep playing till you u can blind folded.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Magic
Is only given by BRD in the truest sense (hypercharge gives magic vulnerability, which stacks with resistance down). There can be other applications for this...such as dork knight through derilerium. Delirium as it is now, it's practically a joke. It doesn't offer blunt resistance and is effectively a useless skill with a monk in your party. You don't want to make it physical damage down if DRK is supposed to be the magic tank (opposed to PLD being the physical tank). There's not much reason to use delirium even outside of grit because it's a measly 10 extra potency (which then gets eclipsed by Dork Arts + Souleater). It's also the only combo finisher that does not have a dork arts effect, so why not attach a 10% magic resistance (not stackable with foe) down to it's DA effect, considering that DRK is also partially magic damage.

The greatest area of concern is the blunt resistance because it's only ever utilized by one class and has absolutely no synergy, but that als oboils back to MCH being an incredibly wasted potential when tehy could have made it blunt, or even a hybrid that can do blunt resistance down with -Int.

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DRK's raid DPS potential is already incredible by letting you drop MNK, it'd be bad balance wise to buff it further.

Also Delirium over Soul Eater is 20 extra potency, and the in-Grit heal bonus of a regular Soul Eater is so small it's worth just taking the Delirium extra DPS, even with a MNK in the party.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

DRK's raid DPS potential is already incredible by letting you drop MNK, it'd be bad balance wise to buff it further.

Also Delirium over Soul Eater is 20 extra potency, and the in-Grit heal bonus of a regular Soul Eater is so small it's worth just taking the Delirium extra DPS, even with a MNK in the party.

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I was under the impression that MNK dps is still comparatively high among the three melees? If it's not high enough that dropping monk is better opted in favor of NIN, then I'll concede that.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I was under the impression that MNK dps is still comparatively high among the three melees? If it's not high enough that dropping monk is better opted in favor of NIN, then I'll concede that.

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The personal DPS of MNK is very nice, on average the highest individual DPS (BLM can destroy it with luck and/or Foe's but the luck thing requires very good luck) but NIN will be able to do roughly 95% of it and then give the group Trick Attack. The tricky thing at i180, when people started getting their numbers to base what jobs are good or not around, is that NIN's sub-stats were so bad in i180 we thought its personal DPS was garbage, now we're seeing it's low 1500s on a dummy and that's crazy good for what it also gives to the group.

We'll have to see in 3.1 if whatever they throw PLD is enough that MNK + PLD can become a part of the top-end meta but I highly doubt it since the devs have made DPS the whole point of the game and there's virtually no way even if PLD did DRK levels of DPS, it + MNK could beat out what a NIN brings.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

We'll have to see in 3.1 if whatever they throw PLD is enough that MNK + PLD can become a part of the top-end meta but I highly doubt it since the devs have made DPS the whole point of the game and there's virtually no way even if PLD did DRK levels of DPS, it + MNK could beat out what a NIN brings.

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Part of that just falls into the trap that monk straight up does not play well with anyone other than the fact they are the single highest dps. On the other hand, if NIN was not given the opportunistic scenario of having a warrior do SE (and considering most compositions, a warrior is a given), they'd do less than what's listed, compared to monk who can't necessarily "do less" than what they are now, unless all of those numbers are also with ninja (and therefore not DRG) in the party lineup, or again give another class like MCH or a to-be-hammerman an application of blunt resistance, and then MNK can opt out of dragonkicks for bootshines instead for a consistent dps increase.

I'd also like for them to move away from having hard DPS checks that gets to the point that you're taking away from both tanks and healers to add more dps, now that you mention it. They'd have to make it less appealing for the tanks/healers to find means/the need to dps, and well... actually let the dps roles be the primary concern for meeting the dps checks.

I actually find the focus on hard DPS checks pretty interesting though.

The thing about tanking and healing alone is that traditionally they are pretty binary, you either pass or you fail (either you die or you don't) and getting better and more geared at it just means you spend more time twiddling your thumbs. DPS on the other hand has no ceiling and more is generally always better.

Tanking and healing are really boring to me when they don't have that kind of continuous progression that DPS has - it's very satisfying seeing a boss die faster and faster as you get more geared. They would have to design some mechanics for tanks and healers that bring that same sense of linear progression.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Tanking and healing are really boring to me when they don't have that kind of continuous progression that DPS has - it's very satisfying seeing a boss die faster and faster as you get more geared.

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That feeling could still exist without such a heavy emphasis on DPS checks for encounter difficulty, though. Whether there are DPS checks or not, tanks and healers that want to can contribute the same DPS. The difference between the present endgame and that of ARR is that high tank and healer DPS is essentially *required* to progress in the HW metagame. Used to, it was something you could as you got more comfortable/better geared.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I actually find the focus on hard DPS checks pretty interesting though.
Tanking and healing are really boring to me when they don't have that kind of continuous progression that DPS has - it's very satisfying seeing a boss die faster and faster as you get more geared. They would have to design some mechanics for tanks and healers that bring that same sense of linear progression.

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As long as it is not just a DPS check which makes it difficult then it is fine. In Destiny the crota raid was only difficult because of the fact it was 2 levels above the players, once you met level you could effectively solo the encounter which is just laughable and a showcase of poor encounter design. The first raid in that game even over geared is still fun and a "challenge" because of the mechanics of the fights not because the enemies are hard to kill.

I haven't tried machinist but honestly levelling a job that is just as lacklustre as bard is not very enticing...

MCH is a tremendously boring class to play outside of Wildfire or AoE situations in addition to having a glut of worthless skills, and what skills it does have seem like neutered versions of better ones so as to not provide too much competition to BRD. Bad bad bad design just like with DRK.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Is MCH's +20% damage trait still bugged for the turret?

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I'm surprised there are so few people mentioning this. I recently got MCH to 40 and found the turret damage was lower than it should have been. It also wasn't affected by Hawk's Eye. I didn't try out other cooldowns.

A large percentage of MCH's DPS is from the turret, especially for people who aren't at the top of the skill curve. For that to be nerfed out of a trait bonus and unaffected by one or more DPS cooldowns is a substantial handicap. Maybe MCH wasn't supposed to be lower DPS than BRD but are because of those issues?

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

It also wasn't affected by Hawk's Eye. I didn't try out other cooldowns.

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As far as I know, this part at least should be normal behavior. The trait thing is a bug though, I think.

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Originally Posted by PFM

MCH is a tremendously boring class to play outside of Wildfire or AoE situations in addition to having a glut of worthless skills, and what skills it does have seem like neutered versions of better ones so as to not provide too much competition to BRD. Bad bad bad design just like with DRK.

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MCH is tremendously fun to play ;_;

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Originally Posted by Alahra

As far as I know, this part at least should be normal behavior. The trait thing is a bug though, I think.

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HE buff should work on turret, since it buffs MCH DEX...and turrets scale from MCH dex... like SMN pets scale from SMN INT

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

HE buff should work on turret, since it buffs MCH DEX...and turrets scale from MCH dex... like SMN pets scale from SMN INT

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But temporary INT buffs (like from potions) don't work on SMN pets, nor do MND buffs affect SCH fairies, so the fact that they don't work on MCH turrets is probably not a bug.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

But temporary INT buffs (like from potions) don't work on SMN pets, nor do MND buffs affect SCH fairies, so the fact that they don't work on MCH turrets is probably not a bug.

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Potions buff Summoner's pets, so does Foe's requiem. The only things that don't buff pets are non-magical/ints buffs such as Raging Strikes, Balance cards, etc.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

But temporary INT buffs (like from potions) don't work on SMN pets, nor do MND buffs affect SCH fairies, so the fact that they don't work on MCH turrets is probably not a bug.

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Pot works on pets.

http://puu.sh/l4GGv/b3ed30abc1.jpg

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Potions buff Summoner's pets, so does Foe's requiem. The only things that don't buff pets are non-magical buffs such as Raging Strikes, Balance cards, etc.

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And DEX pots buff Turrets. Hmmmm. Someone should confirm if HE does/doesn't buff the turret.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

And DEX pots buff Turrets. Hmmmm. Someone should confirm if HE does/doesn't buff the turret.

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I don't play MCH but comparing it to how Summoner's buffs work with pets, it should be. If it doesn't, then it's probably something they forgot to implement.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

And DEX pots buff Turrets. Hmmmm. Someone should confirm if HE does/doesn't buff the turret.

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Turret damage: 261 - 287, not keeping HE up.

Within a test of using Hawk's Eye with the turret out, I saw a 265 damage which is far far less than a ~15% boost to the min would allow in any way, so, no, doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Pot works on pets.

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Is that new? I thought they didn't work in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Is that new? I thought they didn't work in ARR.

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Its new. 3.0 they made it so pets benefit from both food and pots (they'd get the same buff as you do, you can see them having well fed and the like)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Its new. 3.0 they made it so pets benefit from both food and pots (they'd get the same buff as you do, you can see them having well fed and the like)

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Ah, okay. I knew about the food change but I didn't realize they'd also extended it to potions.