You think our Cash shop is bad...take a look at THIS

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Wait, wait, wait, WAIT! Are you trying to tell me that retainer's fee does not go towards the game's development?

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I'm pretty sure that I remember at one point it was suggested (cannot remember who by) that the revenue from such things is what enabled the EU datacenter move.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm pretty sure that I remember at one point it was suggested (cannot remember who by) that the revenue from such things is what enabled the EU datacenter move.

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Yus, I read that too.

Let me rephrase my question. So far I have thought that retainer fees are part of the cash shop. If they are not... Does it mean that retainer fees aren't used only for the development, but also for the profits?

If we have to compare our cash shop to a non-sub cash shop to make it look good, then that doesn't make our cash shop look good.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Yus, I read that too.

Let me rephrase my question. So far I have thought that retainer fees are part of the cash shop. If they are not... Does it mean that retainer fees aren't used only for the development, but also for the profits?

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I'm not sure about that myself. Since retainers are a service fee like the subscription, it's continual, plannable revenue for the game. I would expect that like the primary revenue from game sales and subs, this would be rolled back into the game. But of course SE is like any large company, and they have products that make good money, products that break even and products that don't make a profit. That's the risk they take in this field, so I have to assume that some of the profit from FFXIV helps SE's bottom line as a whole.

On the other hand, FFXIV has been a pretty high profile success for Yoshi, the dev team and SE as a whole, so common sense suggests putting money back into the game to keep that goose laying the golden eggs. Unfortunately, common sense and business seldom mix.

Developement is pretty generalized anyways. Was moving EU considered development...? Now im actually curious how specifically all the cash shop revenue is used towards game "development". Be funny if it was used to "develope" more cash shop items.

I might actually use the cash shop with current pricing if it turned out to be whats funding the hildibrand quest log. Stuff like that is actually more entertaining then trying to save the world on a daily basis.

Maybe transparency is an issue for some people too.

Apparently there are some rumors circulating about level boosting microtransactions in Destiny that were added but currently unavailable as well.

I don't mind FFXIV's shop selling old seasonal items as those are all just glamour that could have been obtained in game easily by anyone who was subbed at the time. Unique items, especially the dyes that are one time use, are a lot more irksome and to me have no place in a sub model.

The only game I can think of that does a cash shop right is Path of Exile. Free to play and from the cash shop you can purchase additional bank slots (one time purchase), though it's mostly unnecessary unless you like to hoard/ play several characters (shared bank). Everything else is just a cosmetic effect, either alternate skill animations, pets that follow you around doing nothing (minions), wings, halos, and the like.

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Originally Posted by Nutz

Apparently there are some rumors circulating about level boosting microtransactions in Destiny that were added but currently unavailable as well.

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I kind of expect that Destiny will progress towards the kinds of microtransactions that support Warframe. Players will buy silver in order to finance their in game purchases of the downloadable content (aka updates) including weapons, armor, new maps, etc.... Bungie might be able to give the maps for free, but I am about 99% sure that new weapons, consumables and gear that arrive with updates will be split between lack luster free stuff and temptingly shiny shop items. Since the Destiny player base is leveling out, new sales of the game have definitely slowed, leaving no revenue source other than microtransactions.

With FFXIV even if new purchases slowed considerably, there is a pretty good solid core of subscribers that provide a revenue stream to finance ongoing development. If they keep the size of the dev team under control and remain conservative with how the load servers, there's no reason to worry about FFXIV going that route. IMHO of course.

Check out Replay Badges over at DCUO.





Destiny... biggest let down I've had in gaming.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Check out Replay Badges over at DCUO.

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"tokens that enable a player to repeatedly access loot in Duos, Alerts and Raids without having to wait for the set reset period." and across all characters on one account? ::blinks::

Am I understanding this right? A player could pay for as many of these as they like (can afford), spam the living crap out of content for the loot, effectively overcoming the RNG to an extent in order to obtain rare gear far faster than otherwise possible? Is that about right? So in FFXIV it would have been like being able to run, and rerun Coil as many times as you like without the lockout preventing you from doing so? We'd have had people in full High Allagan gear inside two days...lol

I take it that DCUO is known as a pay to win game?

Our cash shop is fine to be honest, it doesn't bring anything that can break the game or create an imbalance.
I'd love for them to add the Asia version exclusives to our shop (Panda Minion, Korean Clothing, Dragon Behemoth Mount) but...they are exclusives for not having Gold Saucer I suppose, its Catch 22. Its something I can live with out, which is ultimately the best thing about our cash shop, you can live with out all of it :)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

"tokens that enable a player to repeatedly access loot in Duos, Alerts and Raids without having to wait for the set reset period." and across all characters on one account? ::blinks::

Am I understanding this right? A player could pay for as many of these as they like (can afford), spam the living crap out of content for the loot, effectively overcoming the RNG to an extent in order to obtain rare gear far faster than otherwise possible? Is that about right? So in FFXIV it would have been like being able to run, and rerun Coil as many times as you like without the lockout preventing you from doing so? We'd have had people in full High Allagan gear inside two days...lol

I take it that DCUO is known as a pay to win game?

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Yes. That one item makes our cash shop look great in comparison, doesn't it?

Though the P2W debate has come up over there about them, and the typical fall back is that you still have to actually play the content. So while you can make it sound like its not, you are really, really pushing it.

Thats the game where the player base showed that they left, I think it was, the best chest and head piece out of the loot tables to sell more replays. They claimed they were always there, and it was just RNG, but thousands of runs later and no one having it... then all of a sudden it blew up, hotfix, and those drop like candy...


This is where I see the real danger in cash shops, not ponies and paint.

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Originally Posted by Reila_Circus

I was unaware about the Head and Chest piece loot, since I stopped shortly after Origin Crisis, but yea, thats incredibly crap of them.

I do agree, in terms of cash shop items I'd rather have cosmetics (Yes, Sleipnir is a cosmetic. Deal with it nerds.) than whatever DCUO started to do.

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Yeah, it was the Traces in Time pieces from Paradox Wave. That was Crisis wasn't it? I can't remember anymore.
I stopped after the first War of Light, that previous thing, along with other similar things left a bad taste in my mouth. I couldn't keep giving money to developers I had zero respect for. It was one of those things where you log out one day and just never log back in.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

"tokens that enable a player to repeatedly access loot in Duos, Alerts and Raids without having to wait for the set reset period." and across all characters on one account? ::blinks::

Am I understanding this right? A player could pay for as many of these as they like (can afford), spam the living crap out of content for the loot, effectively overcoming the RNG to an extent in order to obtain rare gear far faster than otherwise possible? Is that about right? So in FFXIV it would have been like being able to run, and rerun Coil as many times as you like without the lockout preventing you from doing so? We'd have had people in full High Allagan gear inside two days...lol

I take it that DCUO is known as a pay to win game?

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It actually worse than that. For one thing, they sold updates to the game as "DLC" for Free players and subscribed players as just normal updates. The replay badges really killed the game, not only could you replay as many times for loot, but they also had a token system too, at one point they converted all the previous tokens into one and introduced a generator system to help boost you with things like Side kicks, hench men, orbital strikes, etc. Anything really to give you an edge, but what powered these machines? Tokens. So essentially you had to grind old raids, alerts, etc for these tokens to power these machines, and essentially use the replay badges to bypass the weekly reset to get more tokens to keep your generators powered.

So, yea. It kinda become pay 2 win.

u guys are comparing apples (F2p games) vs oranges (p2p games)...

f2p need to keep the money coming somehow :/

but p2p ? with subs and good playerbase numbers , cash shop are just pure greed.

I know our cash shop could be worse but with P2P games, I don't see the need for one. We pay for the game itself, expansions, and then our monthly subscription, and are still charged for other things. Of course they're optional, but it's just not absolutely necessary.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Though the P2W debate has come up over there about them, and the typical fall back is that you still have to actually play the content. So while you can make it sound like its not, you are really, really pushing it.

Thats the game where the player base showed that they left, I think it was, the best chest and head piece out of the loot tables to sell more replays. They claimed they were always there, and it was just RNG, but thousands of runs later and no one having it... then all of a sudden it blew up, hotfix, and those drop like candy...


This is where I see the real danger in cash shops, not ponies and paint.

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I was unaware about the Head and Chest piece loot, since I stopped shortly after Origin Crisis, but yea, thats incredibly crap of them.

I do agree, in terms of cash shop items I'd rather have cosmetics (Yes, Sleipnir is a cosmetic. Deal with it nerds.) than whatever DCUO started to do.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Recently an update added 18 new emote to the game, except they are locked out. But, if you...Want To Buy All The Emotes In Destiny? It'll Run You $38

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I come here expecting them selling raid gear or something. They are selling emotes.... This is what you consider noteworthy abuse of the cash shop system? Vanity fluff? This is exactly what SHOULD be in the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Yes. That one item makes our cash shop look great in comparison, doesn't it?

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Definitely.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Though the P2W debate has come up over there about them, and the typical fall back is that you still have to actually play the content. So while you can make it sound like its not, you are really, really pushing it.

Thats the game where the player base showed that they left, I think it was, the best chest and head piece out of the loot tables to sell more replays. They claimed they were always there, and it was just RNG, but thousands of runs later and no one having it... then all of a sudden it blew up, hotfix, and those drop like candy...

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LOL I encountered something like that in another game...

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

This is where I see the real danger in cash shops, not ponies and paint.

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I completely agree with you.

On the subject of cash shops and f2p games, I'd like to make it completely crystal clear, I don't like the f2p model, I am not a huge fan of cash shops in games. If I pay for the game purchase, pay for my monthly sub and even additional service options like retainers, I see no reason why I should have to pony up for additional things in a cash shop. In free to play games, the cash shops and the items in them, along with the in-game currency and economy are consciously designed to hook players into a treadmill grind of microtransactions.

It's like a psychotropic drug addiction in virtual form. The most obvious example I can think of is the completely deplorable Farmville. I had a co-worker so addicted to the game that there is no telling how much they spent on it. I do know that they spend 7-8 hours a day at 'work' playing the game.

However, I can more easily tolerate cash shops that serve up older cosmetic items - which is largely what Mogstation does - so long as the profit goes back into the game; also the items are items that were easily available in-game, but have since been replaced by others, and retired. It's not ideal, but it's tolerable. I don't want to see things appearing in the cash shop before they appear in the game, nor do I want anything sold in the cash shop that can affect my ability to play or complete content.

This story may help you understand why I feel that way.
(Tl;DR; I've seen what happens when free to play, microtransaction games fade, and it's not pretty. )

Anyone who played White Knight Chronicles 1 & 2 on PS3 may remember that beyond the initial purchase, the game was free to play, but you had numerous tickets that you could buy to enhance your in-game XP, gold and gathering/drop rates, as well specific items to enable special gear for your 'knight', guilds, skins and of course a bazillion georama items. Now, White Knight was a good game, it fulfilled the need for a nearly turn based JRPG on the PS3 but also provided online multi-player similar to a true MMORPG. Like JRPGs in general it was quite the grindfest and there was a lot of incentive to purchase the various tickets to boost XP, Guild Rank points and gold.

An entire tier of additional content that was made for the game was cancelled outside of Japan, though no one knows why given that the game sold more or less as many copies outside Japan as it did inside Japan. Inevitably players found out (can't hide from the Internet), got angry and some, of course, left the game. In the end, SCEA/D3/Level 5 decided to kill the game outside Japan using the excuse that there was not enough revenue from the remaining players to justify keeping the game servers open. They were shut down in less than 2 years, leaving the remaining regular players in the lurch, and feeling very bitter towards the publishers (less so to the developer).

Now, you might say, and I would agree, that by making the game microtransaction based and failing to deliver a major tier of content, the publisher effectively created the situation where revenue was insufficient themselves. That's the danger of a game dependent on the variable income of microtransactions. Sooner or later, someone doesn't want to take the risk of investing a bit more money into the game, and the players suffer. Ultimately when the players suffer, so does the game and the revenue. It ends badly.

Subscriptions are by far the most honest way to charge players for a game, and the most dependable income source for the developers/producers, ultimately I believe that does mean a better game that has a longer life, and which serves it's players (customers) in a better way than F2P ever can.

OP really has described how F2P games operate, any person who isn't a fool knows you spend far more then you think playing F2p games, unless you can resist the urge ( and be behind everyone else) to spend on a games micro transactions. they do have to make money and since these games aren't good or brave enough to attempt a sub fee they prey on people and some games like PSO2 are getting rich off micros because people will foolishly toss money at anything, No matter how dumb it is.

As it's already been said a P2P game should never have a cash shop, it's just double dipping, since they know people won't resist throwing money for instant gratification. Thankfully its all forgettable stuff but it's still there. I still can't help but laugh at people who bought odin mount and now never use it because it doesn't fly. That's just one example of why this shouldn't be here, it would have made much more sense to put it in the Urth's Font fight.

But this is how MMOs will go, they will mostly be F2P and people like me will mostly ignore them. as my money can be spent on better things or games.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Anyone who played White Knight Chronicles 1 & 2 on PS3 may remember that beyond the initial purchase, the game was free to play, but you had numerous tickets that you could buy to enhance your in-game XP, gold and gathering/drop rates, as well specific items to enable special gear for your 'knight', guilds, skins and of course a bazillion georama items. Now, White Knight was a good game, it fulfilled the need for a nearly turn based JRPG on the PS3 but also provided online multi-player similar to a true MMORPG. Like JRPGs in general it was quite the grindfest and there was a lot of incentive to purchase the various tickets to boost XP, Guild Rank points and gold.

An entire tier of additional content that was made for the game was cancelled outside of Japan, though no one knows why given that the game sold more or less as many copies outside Japan as it did inside Japan. Inevitably players found out (can't hide from the Internet), got angry and some, of course, left the game. In the end, SCEA/D3/Level 5 decided to kill the game outside Japan using the excuse that there was not enough revenue from the remaining players to justify keeping the game servers open. They were shut down in less than 2 years, leaving the remaining regular players in the lurch, and feeling very bitter towards the publishers (less so to the developer).

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I remember that crap. Luckily, I had a Game Genie.

:^)

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Developement is pretty generalized anyways. Was moving EU considered development...? Now im actually curious how specifically all the cash shop revenue is used towards game "development". Be funny if it was used to "develope" more cash shop items.

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There are not really many "pure" cash shop items. The most of them are old seasonal gears.
Our cash shop is more like a 2nd hand shop that sell leftovers from past events ^^

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Anyone who played White Knight Chronicles 1 & 2 on PS3 may remember that an entire tier of content was cancelled outside of Japan, though no one knows why. Inevitably players found out, got angry and left the game. SCEA/D3/Level 5 decided to kill the game outside Japan using the excuse that there was not enough revenue; the servers were shut down in less than 2 years, leaving the remaining players bitter towards the publisher (less so to the developer).

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It is a betrayal felt still, to this day. I know, because I was there too (not that anyone remembers).

Playing though that from Day One to premature sunset is my entire justification for purchasing through the Mog Station. Whether or not the money goes directly back into XIV or another SE game, it's going to games, and to me, in the end, that's what counts. Though, for what it's worth, I both bemoan the cancellation of Wonderflick, and await more news on Level-5's PS4 game.

Oh the inhumanity! They're charging for emotes; that are irrelevant to the play of the game, HOW DARE THEY!?

If they were charging for increased chance of power drops (Weapons or Armor), paying for specific power ups (Weapons, Armor, increase of stats, ammo, etc etc), or paying for raid clears, then I could understand people bitching. As it is now however, there is no relevancy for complaint, especially considering that nothing that they are selling is altering game play or giving some sort of unfair advantage.

The best models for cash shops are in Firefall and Neverwinter. The way they are designed, you can take currency earned through gameplay and turn it in to currency that you can use to buy items in the cash shop, thus everything in those cash shops is obtainable eventually if you're patient and grind enough without spending any real money. As far as I'm concerned, every MMO needs that.

/fistbump
/bombdance

My biggest issue with "retired" seasonal gear being cash shop only is that it happened without any warning. Early on when the even would come around for the 2nd time you COULD buy last years gear, then all of a sudden they started up the cash shop and if you had said "I'm busy now, I'll pick it up next year" you are SOL.

i play white knight chroncle 1 and 2

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Originally Posted by Dree-Elle

It is a betrayal felt still, to this day. I know, because I was there too (not that anyone remembers).

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I remember and feel the betrayal too...you are not alone. There are another 5-6 members of my Free Company who were there at the end of WKC as well, they remember.

I still remember standing in our guild town on the last night as people left. I was, as it were, the captain staying with the ship as it sank. ...feeling melancholy all of a sudden....

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Playing though that from Day One to premature sunset is my entire justification for purchasing through the Mog Station. Whether or not the money goes directly back into XIV or another SE game, it's going to games, and to me, in the end, that's what counts.

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I agree.

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Though, for what it's worth, I both bemoan the cancellation of Wonderflick, and await more news on Level-5's PS4 game.

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I haven't heard a peep from them, so I don't know whether to hold out hope or not.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

i play white knight chroncle 1 and 2

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Behemoth has a fair number of ex-WKC players.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

i glad you still play ffxiv kosmos

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Oh yes, I do. My story progress is stalled due to RL issues (waiting for my wife to be able to play again), but I enjoy the rest of the game, so I am there. :)

i glad you still play ffxiv kosmos

All these people against the non-pay-to-win, extremely low priced, vanity ffxiv cash-shop have something else going on or some ulterior motive. All their arguments are illogical.

As for me i feel the Cash-Shop is extremely low key. I've been demanding for SE franchise vanity costumes, hairstyles, and mounts from tomb raider, ff1-12 and they refuse to give in to my reasonable demands. "look i want to give you cash for tifa lockhart's hairstyle." SE:"we dont want your money, and you cant have tifa's hair."

So the reason for the cash shop? It's aiming for the frequent on and off subscribers that go "lol ill just skip this month because they will give it to me next year or ill scream bloody murder on the forums about cash-shop greed"

"I pay a subscription! i should have free access to all these past event/vanity items"
uh... yeah... you obviously weren't paying a subscription when said items were available, otherwise you would have them! (special conditions apply)

"emotes! NOT FAIR!"
You had your fair chance to obtain emotes, just like everyone else, but for ^^^reasons^^^, pay your dues.

"They should make the dyes available ingame!"
Of all the dyes, 97% of it is available to you ingame for no extra charge. Luxury dyes are a luxury.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

All these people against the non-pay-to-win, extremely low priced, vanity ffxiv cash-shop have something else going on or some ulterior motive. All their arguments are illogical.

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You got me, I'm secretly trying to usurp Yoshi-P's position and I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling Giant Dads!

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Originally Posted by Colorful

You got me, I'm secretly trying to usurp Yoshi-P's position and I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling Giant Dads!

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pay your dues.

Really? Out of all the games to pick, you went with Destiny?! The game that's using said microtransactions in order to subsidize all future content and expansions? Look, I get that people like to s*** on that game and wanna defend FFXIV or whatever, but that's like the worst example you could have chosen.

edit: btw, I don't have a problem with FFXIV's cash shop. I'm just sayin...

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

Really? Out of all the games to pick, you went with Destiny?! The game that's using said microtransactions in order to subsidize all future content and expansions? Look, I get that people like to s*** on that game and wanna defend FFXIV or whatever, but that's like the worst example you could have chosen.

edit: btw, I don't have a problem with FFXIV's cash shop. I'm just sayin...

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Doesn't Destiny charge for expansions, or are they going to use microtransactions instead now?

I don't think the mog station store is bad. I buy some of the pets and stuff on there because I like the game and want to support it.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Doesn't Destiny charge for expansions, or are they going to use microtransactions instead now?

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Seems change is coming

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This is all part of a new plan that could start as early as this month, according to two people familiar with Destiny’s development. Rather than sell big expansion packs like they did last year, Bungie is planning on giving out quests and missions for free, sources say. This will likely involve big drops every few months until the fall of 2016 but could also include trickles of smaller stuff throughout the year.

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Buuut i'd be kidding myself if I said I wasn't a bit dubious.

For now, doing the carlton at the tower all day, every day, for the lulz is fine by me.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Seems change is coming



Buuut i'd be kidding myself if I said I wasn't a bit dubious.

For now, doing the carlton at the tower all day, every day, for the lulz is fine by me.

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Pretty amazing of them if that's true, I mean, I don't like Destiny myself but that seems like an incredibly fair model in comparison to FFXIV's sub + expansion + cash shop + retainers + optional services.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Seems change is coming



Buuut i'd be kidding myself if I said I wasn't a bit dubious.

For now, doing the carlton at the tower all day, every day, for the lulz is fine by me.

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The Destiny devs are more than a little notorious for making promises they don't come close to keeping though.

I just want Lightning's hair to be on the cash shop already :(

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Seems change is coming



Buuut i'd be kidding myself if I said I wasn't a bit dubious.

For now, doing the carlton at the tower all day, every day, for the lulz is fine by me.

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You might want to read this, emotes are the tip of the iceberg...
http://kotaku.com/why-people-are-fre...cti-1736474030

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

You might want to read this, emotes are the tip of the iceberg...
http://kotaku.com/why-people-are-fre...cti-1736474030

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honestly people are jumping the shark a little too soon here. data was minned, data is said to be incorrectly assumed, then the article goes to try and pick any shred of words to build controversy. if the day comes when you can shell out $$$ for drops and gain an 'actual'/'statistical' advatange over others, is when the buck stops least from me, no matter the game. but eh, go ahead and keep that tin foil hat on if ya want, seeing it seems to be the latest fashion craze for alot of people these days.