PLD cant even hold the aggro for Alexander savage ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

umm forget PLDs holding agro even if they can cause atm they have to be carried cause dps of the 3 tanks is lowest and PLD's survivability is no better than DRK and WAR unless you want to try to prove a same I-level WAR or DRK cant out dps a PLD and that's impossible unless the WAR/DRK is either bribed in test or just suck and or feeling sorry and low parsing dps deliberately to pretend the gap isn't so much to keep WAR and DRK safe while SE thinks PLD balanced and thus WAR/DRK preferred always cause most end game raiders know PLD has major DPS issues and doesn't bring any more defense worth even mentioning that is unless your a WAR/DRK lover trying to hide the truth that PLD's have no superior defensive capability's so WAR/DRK maintain tank slot 1 and 2 cause who needs 3 tanks right?

---

So suddenly lower DPS = getting carried? I guess bards, machinists, ninjas, and astrologians get carried too then. Yes, my DPS is lower than it would be as a DRK or WAR, but as long as I'm doing everything I can to help clear the raid I am not getting carried. -.-

I'm not disputing that the class needs some tweaking atm, but I'm getting really tired of hearing that I'm getting carried.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

So suddenly lower DPS = getting carried? I guess bards, machinists, ninjas, and astrologians get carried too then. Yes, my DPS is lower than it would be as a DRK or WAR, but as long as I'm doing everything I can to help clear the raid I am not getting carried. -.-

I'm not disputing that the class needs some tweaking atm, but I'm getting really tired of hearing that I'm getting carried.

---

See the problem with equating PLD with BRD, MCH, and NIN is that the aforementioned classes actually bring utility to the table. PLD does not. It offers absolutely nothing to the raid while simultaneously offering the lowest DPS. So basically they are being carried.

PLD can hold aggro fine... by spamming an incredibly weak combo and thus further lowering their already low DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

PLD can hold aggro fine... by spamming an incredibly weak combo and thus further lowering their already low DPS.

---

I would say Paladin can hold aggro, but it's not fine. I already made a list of stuff that helps kill Paladin's dps potential in a previous post on this thread, but yeah Rage of Halone being low dps/low aggro generation is a contributing factor to it.

So since a WHM/SCH/AST has low DPS then a DRK is getting carried? It's a PLD job to Tank not DPS it's not his main role to bring the DPS that is why he is a tank!

It's not a any Tank's job to ensure the DPS check are made, or if the fight is done sooner that is the job of the DPS.

Any tank that holds Aggro on the boss and upkeeps its own survivability is doing it's job right regardless of the DPS that tank is doing. If you fail at a DPS checks then it's your DPS fault not the tanks or healers. Any DPS from them is considered a bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

So since a WHM/SCH/AST has low DPS then a DRK is getting carried? It's a PLD job to Tank not DPS it's not his main role to bring the DPS that is why he is a tank!

It's not a any Tank's job to ensure the DPS check are made, or if the fight is done sooner that is the job of the DPS.

Any tank that holds Aggro on the boss and upkeeps its own survivability is doing it's job right regardless of the DPS that tank is doing. If you fail at a DPS checks then it's your DPS fault not the tanks or healers. Any DPS from them is considered a bonus.

---

This does not hold true in Alexander Savage (or any hard encounter with DPS checks, really.) Tank DPS is important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

So since a WHM/SCH/AST has low DPS then a DRK is getting carried? It's a PLD job to Tank not DPS it's not his main role to bring the DPS that is why he is a tank!

It's not a any Tank's job to ensure the DPS check are made, or if the fight is done sooner that is the job of the DPS.

Any tank that holds Aggro on the boss and upkeeps its own survivability is doing it's job right regardless of the DPS that tank is doing. If you fail at a DPS checks then it's your DPS fault not the tanks or healers. Any DPS from them is considered a bonus.

---

You're wrong.

Hmmm...just want to say cheer up guys. Maybe SE will do great things to Pld in 3.1, and we can all be a big, happy, tank family.

^w^)/ -crosses fingers-

I'm fine with beeing the defensive Tank and doing less DPS than a Warrior or DRK but than, please give us helpful tools for our party.

- Clemency: Lower casttime to 0.5 seconds (the high Manacosts will prevent us from spamming it anyway)
- Divine Veil: Remove the healing condition to activate the barrier and lower CD to 90 seconds.
- Shield swipe: Replace Pacification with a 10% DMG reduce of the Mobs magical attacks.

Well lets see, what will be done about the Paladin in the coming patch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

This does not hold true in Alexander Savage (or any hard encounter with DPS checks, really.) Tank DPS is important.

---

Well of course Tanks DPS is taken into consideration of course but the vibe seems to be here that PLD's are getting carried due to having low DPS. Props didn't come across clear with what I was trying to say. But the thing if you have a PLD that is DPSing as much as he possible can in any content they I don't consider that a carry.

What I consider a carry is someone who can't do there job and dies due to their poor play style. So if a WAR/DRK die at the beginning of the encounter they got carried but if the PLD stayed alive, tanked the boss well regardless of his DPS output he did his job and did not get get carried.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGMidlander

You're wrong.

---

Oh yes your words of wonder inspire us all. Very well thought out indeed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

So since a WHM/SCH/AST has low DPS then a DRK is getting carried? It's a PLD job to Tank not DPS it's not his main role to bring the DPS that is why he is a tank!

It's not a any Tank's job to ensure the DPS check are made, or if the fight is done sooner that is the job of the DPS.

Any tank that holds Aggro on the boss and upkeeps its own survivability is doing it's job right regardless of the DPS that tank is doing. If you fail at a DPS checks then it's your DPS fault not the tanks or healers. Any DPS from them is considered a bonus.

---

This is incorrect. Tank gameplay is more focused on DPS than it has ever been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

So since a WHM/SCH/AST has low DPS then a DRK is getting carried? It's a PLD job to Tank not DPS it's not his main role to bring the DPS that is why he is a tank!

It's not a any Tank's job to ensure the DPS check are made, or if the fight is done sooner that is the job of the DPS.

Any tank that holds Aggro on the boss and upkeeps its own survivability is doing it's job right regardless of the DPS that tank is doing. If you fail at a DPS checks then it's your DPS fault not the tanks or healers. Any DPS from them is considered a bonus.

---

You obviously are not a Savage raider. Tank DPS is, and always has been, incredibly important. A PLD who sits in Shield Oath and spams RoH all day is a terrible tank and is indead being carried.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

You obviously are not a Savage raider. Tank DPS is, and always has been, incredibly important. A PLD who sits in Shield Oath and spams RoH all day is a terrible tank and is indead being carried.

---

Made it to A2S thank you very much. Maybe I didn't come across as I intended. I did have a little to drink last night........

I do agree if a PLD dose that as you stated is beining carried but some people here saying no matter what a PLD dose they beining carried anyway and I just want to point out that is complete and utter Bull S**t.

Just because a PLD has the lowest DPS of the 3 Tanks does not mean he is getting carried through any content he is in, yes Tanks DPS can contribute is required in the fight but should not be relied on prior to his main role which is Tanking. That is why people choose PLD over WAR in old Coil content to solo Tank stuff not for his DPS but how much more of a solid build he was over WAR. *true WAR is a good tank also but PLD dose have better Physical defense.

The main issue is how the end game raid was made, it's like a big middle finger to PLD abit where heavy DPS checks are required so DRK/WAR combo are favoured but bring it some really heavy hitting Physical TB and people would want a PLD in their group again.

But even then with TB, In A1S as a DRK I even reduce it to 0 before.

I've cleared A1 Savage with Paladin using absolutely 0 Rage of Halone combos from start to finish. Granted, I was forced into Shield Oath because the healers asked me to, due to Sword causing them to fall behind on heals or something, but if a Paladin seriously can't hold hate, they're doing something woefully wrong. And any group running PLD/WAR that has the PLD pull the boss is *also* doing something incorrectly.

But that's a discussion for another thread.

I've also done A3S on Paladin with a WHM who was overhealing his dick off with SCH support and managed to hold hate while still maintaining over 500 dps through the end of hand phase, 100% Shield Oath, since I was already close enough to dying repeatedly in that stance.

If you wanna hold hate and do dps as a Paladin, you need good healers behind you. Otherwise, it's impossible, even with proper cooldown rotations. I've died in Sword Oath with Rampart active during a string of autos and raid damage in A3 normal where I wouldn't have normally bothered popping a CD if I had been in Shield Oath.

You can't consider tank dps/threat in a vacuum.

PLD is my only job at 60. Currently on the third phase of AS4.


I main tank for our static in AS3 using three i210 Slaying accessories and two penta-melded Slaying with 17k HP. Our first clear required me to use four Rage of Halone combos in Shield Oath with Fight or Flight as an opener. Those four combos generated enough hate to let me Sword Oath for the rest of the fight (minus Drainage Tethers.) The WHM always came close to pulling threat at the start of Phase 2 though they popped Shroud at that point and we never worry about hate again. Thus, if your Tank is having a hard time holding aggro I highly suggest they invest in more STR accessories or use a few more Halones in Shield Oath at the start. Vit accessories are just going to get you killed in this turn with such a high DPS check. Otherwise, check to see when your Whm is using Shroud.


Also, you don't ALWAYS have to activate Sword Oath when you want to DPS. Removing Shield Oath (removing the 20% damage penalty) does NOT require a GCD (it's instant.) Removing Shield Oath also does NOT break your current combo. This is done by simply clicking Shield Oath a second time. Sword Oath is nice, but there's no point using up a GCD and breaking your current combo for it. It depends on the situation but you can usually wait until a boss mechanic puts you out of melee range for awhile (Magnets, post-Drainage, Phase Transition, w/e) then pop the clunky Sword Oath.

I will never understand why anyone other than a WAR would open for a group.

Can someone please explain to why groups do that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

I will never understand why anyone other than a WAR would open for a group.

Can someone please explain to why groups do that?

---

Most players consider Warriors to be extremely fragile, even more so then DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

I will never understand why anyone other than a WAR would open for a group.

Can someone please explain to why groups do that?

---

A1S I pull as PLD in Sword Oath and maintain enmity* with only one or two rotations of Rage of Halone - I mostly use Royal Authority; but even then pulling this way allows our WAR to stay in Deliverance 100% of the time and allows them to utilize Vengeance and Raw Intuition initially for stacks towards an easy triple-Fell Cleave. (I do have a Ninja helping me*)

I personally don't swap to Shield Oath until the 2nd Boss - the WAR vokes the first target and continues where I left off which (no moving) which allows them to continue to maintenance stacks and DPS rather than waiting on the 2nd Boss.

Much the same in A3S as well though with less headroom on enmity.

Additionally to address the original post;



PFFFFFTTTTTT

The original poster doesn't know what he/she is talking about. 'nuff said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

I will never understand why anyone other than a WAR would open for a group.

Can someone please explain to why groups do that?

---

You know, I believe the world first pulls for Alexander savage were PLD, PLD, DRK, WAR?

World second was ?, ?, DRK, DRK. (? there isn't a video or the video is cut off)

True, PLD loses a lot of potency using Rage of Halone. Usually not using Rage of Halone is first priority over any DPS gain for the Warrior; however, it's 7 Rage of Halone before you lose more potency than a Fell Cleave so if the WAR can burn cooldowns at the pull for a faster Fell Cleave it's more DPS to not have your WAR pull.