A Lesson in Dragonspeak

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Originally Posted by Velox

Also in your abridged dictionary post, you have "peace" translating to "slumber" in dragonspeak. I'm assuming this isn't intended. :P

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To add to this, if this translation is indeed correct, would this imply that Eorzean's adopted the term for sleeping? And if so, why wouldn't they just adopt sohm as their word for sleep (even though sleep is pretty peaceful in itself)?

Thank you for the gift of lore, Fernehawles. I admire your dedication and it's plain to see your love of Eorzea, so all I can ask is that you keep up the amazing work! It's interesting to learn more the dragons, to see they're much more than simple beasts Ishgardians would have us slay without thought. Very sad in many ways. So much hate and prejudice based on generations of fighting each other, and no real end in sight due to Nidhogg's influence.

Thank you, Ferne. Always fascinating to learn more about the game. You guys and gals are so creative and clever to have built a world with so much depth.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

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Oh, and also looking forward to whether or not mor and dhona are conspicuously absent...

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Mor Dhona = mor[n] do[h] na
= death forget [imperative]
= Forget death! (or "Leave death behind!" or even "Forsake death!")

After a few (many) months, my theory on what Akh Morn (Circle/Fate - Death)and Akh Afah (Circle/Fate - Eternal) translates into was proved wrong \:c/
Though I'm happy we finally got a mini dictionary. This is going to be extremely helpful.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Oh, and also looking forward to whether or not mor and dhona are conspicuously absent...

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Given what we know now and what we know of Mor Dhona, it could be a bastardization like Mourn. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say it was a corrupted form of "mor[n] doh a[n]," roughly translating into "I, who has forgotten death." This would be alluding to the immortality of Midgardsormr who resided there.

Of course, I'm really grasping here.

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Originally Posted by Velox

I think I found another two mistakes.

In the same quote, you say that Sohm Al (which was mispelled as Ahl in your post) translates to "eternal slumber." Eternal is "afa[h]" in dragonspeak. Sohm Al would translate to "the promised sleep/slumber."

Also in your abridged dictionary post, you have "peace" translating to "slumber" in dragonspeak. I'm assuming this isn't intended. :P

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GAH! Thank you again. I'll fix the first (you are right). As for the second, peace and slumber are the same word in dragonspeak...but yeah, I should have so[h]m there, not slumber.

YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST PROOFREADERS!

That was interesting. I was suspecting that FFXIV's dragonspeak was actually not just someone saying bullshit lines over and over again (because every sentances where different). I am also not surprised that the same voice is used regardless of localization. But the amount of work to make this is a bit interesting. Translate from Japanese to English and then to DragonSpeak... the only way you could be more convoluted would have been to add more languages in the translation chain but at least it makes for a apparently working language.

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

GAH! Thank you again. I'll fix the first (you are right). As for the second, peace and slumber are the same word in dragonspeak...but yeah, I should have so[h]m there, not slumber.

YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST PROOFREADERS!

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Being proofread by one's own players is a time-honored tradition. (I should know.)

Also this post is completely amazing, thank you for making it. When I have a little more time to digest it all, I'm sure I'll have a few questions of my own!

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Looking forward to seeing how close Vik and I were as we chipped away at these, especially the Sorh Gahr mobs and dragon names from Anyx Trine.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Fingers crossed! It was certainly difficult trying to broaden the scope of each definition, as dragons would, but I think we were really close with most of the words we worked on.

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SO CLOSE!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQzESy1UAAUiCJp.png:large

Oh nice, we have a dictionary now.

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Originally Posted by Cherub

After a few (many) months, my theory on what Akh Morn (Circle/Fate - Death)and Akh Afah (Circle/Fate - Eternal) translates into was proved wrong \:c/
Though I'm happy we finally got a mini dictionary. This is going to be extremely helpful.

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I think they actually published those awhile back.

Yep, here it is from back in January:

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

We checked with the Lore team about the meaning. In the language of the dragons "Akh Morn" means “circle of death.” Additionally, as you’ve noticed, “akh” also appears in the name for Shiva’s battlefield, the “Akh Afah Amphitheatre,” which means “eternal circle.”

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finally....I've finished Japanese translation....

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...86#post3359686

BTW, where is "halo" in the Dravanian forelands?

> Halo -> w[h]ei lo[h]s (the path to loneliness)

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Originally Posted by Anemone-aura

BTW, where is "halo" in the Dravanian forelands?

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In the very center of Sohm Al (you walk through Mourn to get there). It's where that statue is of the woman and dragon (the woman half has melted away, probably from a dragon due to anger of betrayal).

EDIT: You can see it at the top left of this map
http://www.aleczan.com/FFXIVARR/wp-c...relands_v4.jpg

thank you so much for this, for some reason i'm really hyped about this, going to translate all the things! \o/

Really interesting. One thing that stood out to me from the dictionary is the word for dragoon (dra[h]or[h]) using the "non-life" [h]. Is this to distinguish them from the life [n] in dragon (dra[n]), are they not considered "beings", or is this a case of the word in Eorzean being approximated into Dragonspeak?

I completely overlooked that. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Anemone-aura

finally....I've finished Japanese translation....

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...86#post3359686

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WOW! I appreciate the hard work and conviction! You have my thanks, and the thanks of the rest of the FFXIV team.

Very interesting and struggling a little trying to pronounce things haha. Thank you so much for this ^_^.

Though kinda funny seeing the last name I made back in 2.0's beta is in the dictionary, funny coincidence I guess. "large/great/many" is "la[h]r" and the last name of my character has been Lahr since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Really interesting. One thing that stood out to me from the dictionary is the word for dragoon (dra[h]or[h]) using the "non-life" [h]. Is this to distinguish them from the life [n] in dragon (dra[n]), are they not considered "beings", or is this a case of the word in Eorzean being approximated into Dragonspeak?

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Perhaps it is because the function of a Dragoon is to remove life from dragons? They turn dra[n] in to dra[h].

It may also be out of pettiness. They refuse to acknowledge the loathsome Dragoons as living beings even if, intellectually, they know it to be true.

Fern is the first world-maker I've come across, who has the longest-lived race, attempt the most spare language. Everyone else likes to go the other way... Hoom, hom...

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Originally Posted by Velox

Given what we know now and what we know of Mor Dhona, it could be a bastardization like Mourn. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say it was a corrupted form of "mor[n] doh a[n]," roughly translating into "I, who has forgotten death." This would be alluding to the immortality of Midgardsormr who resided there.

Of course, I'm really grasping here.

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I'm more incline to think it is referencing the significance of Mor Dhona as (apparently) the wellspring of Hydaelyns aether, it is a location which discards death by bringing forth life.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm more incline to think it is referencing the significance of Mor Dhona as (apparently) the wellspring of Hydaelyns aether, it is a location which discards death by bringing forth life.

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Yes, I could see that approach working, if we take Silvertear Lake as Eorzea's more or less literal "cradle of life" (as in the place where aether concentrates/surges forth). I haven't tried my hand at the dictionary yet, but I guess we might end up getting interesting results for some concepts such as the Lifestream.

Again, thanks a bunch Ferne!... You've certainly made this Paladin happy.

Thinking about it, I'm wondering if Mor Dhona might be similar to Esh Thom, in that it was the Allagans attempt at Dragonspeak... I say that mostly because of the "na", which apparently emphasizes an order... As a place name that doesn't quite fit, and as something coming from Midgardsormr? Well, he might be immortal, but I don't see him ordering that lifestyle on anyone else... Quite the opposite if he is going to help us combat the Ascians... Maybe it's meant as more of a "Hey, don't worry about dying!" sort of thing? IDK...

Allagan in origin though? Well, that is where the seat of their Empire was, an Empire which they believed would be everlasting. Then you have Xandes, who was literally revived from the dead... "Forget Death!" certainly seems like the message Crystal Tower and Xandes would be putting out, intentionally or not. Just like Esh Thom, we also have some bitter irony in the naming too; Xandes couldn't forget death, it's what drove him mad in the end and ultimately undid his Empire...

Actually, I guess that sort of works even if the Allag didn't name the place... They arrogantly thought they got the meaning behind the name, perhaps even why they built Crystal Tower there, but it's precisely because they didn't that they were undone.

The fact that Xandes literally couldn't forget death, and Mor Dhona could loosely translate to "Forget Death!"... There just has to be something there...

BytsTRyBBiT MitRytI IXynRtt? Hai?

Ja, §äorytynM ÐRÁKKÆR, FtnnytM Byórðæár? eh?

Sie Saeth ja hest, Hai? grin.

This is really awesome Fern, Dravanian seems really fascinating!

By the way can you help me grasp the other lyrics of the Heavensward trailer song? I know that part of it has been confirmed, and that's the english part + the last lines: Dys an sohm in - Rhos an kyn - Sah djahs afah an - Mah morn narr ( I hope the spelling is right ^^).

Still, I can't figure out the part right after the appearance of the dragon on the bridge, and the part before the Dravanian lyrics I posted. I really love that song and I would like to know those missing lyrics that I can't find anywhere, so please help me, Dravanian Master!

I love that this guide is actually backed by sound linguistic theories (though I would nitpick on one or two things, especially the sociolinguistic parts), and yet is dumbed down enough to be accessible and understandable by anyone even without any specific education in any field of linguistics.

Great job :)

interesting to see on the dictionary that the dragons who lives thousand of years consider hydaelyn as something without life... (le[h]s)

Hmm... so the new dungeon for 3.3 is simply named "Sad Apology"? I'm interested to see the lore behind it...

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Hmm... so the new dungeon for 3.3 is simply named "Sad Apology"? I'm interested to see the lore behind it...

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My guess? It's the lair of Ratatoskr, and the name is related to what happened to her... Plot twist, I'm guessing she wanted Thordan to do what he did, but Nidhogg walked in on it and went nuts... I'd guess Ratatoskr wanted to sacrifice herself to give Thordan the means to combat Ascians? Ascians probably told Nidhogg to go check out what was happening too... As usual, they twisted history for their own means...

Sohr Khai is where Nidhogg was meant to go, where Ratatoskr left her last will and testament to apologize and explain to him... Thus we go there for obvious reasons...

Counter theory though; We call it Sohr Khai because that's what Estinien calls it... We go there and it's his "Sad Apology", 3.1 we did have Nidhogg flying for "skies unknown", after all... Although that's clearly part of Churning Mists, so I'm not sure why it would be unknown...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

My guess? It's the lair of Ratatoskr, and the name is related to what happened to her...

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Hmm... I thought Tharl Oom Khash was her lair, with heavy implication that she was killed there (the masses of purple crystals).

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Hmm... I thought Tharl Oom Khash was her lair, with heavy implication that she was killed there (the masses of purple crystals).

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IDK, I'm sure she was killed there, but was it her lair?

Zenith would seem to be Hresvelgrs lair, and Sohr Khai has a lot in common with it, so I'd say their lairs all shared a similar design, while Tharl Oom Khash would have perhaps been Landlord territory? Ratatoskr shows up there and dies there, rather than living there... IIRC, Hresvelgr specifically states that Thordan lured Ratatoskr into a trap, which would imply she didn't fall in her lair.

One thing that really makes me thing it might be Ratatoskrs lair is it's condition... It's very similar to Zenith, but who has been protecting it? I'd assume Aery used to look similar, but Nidhogg rage-destroyed it, so why is Sohr Khai relatively untouched? Because it was Ratatoskrs...

I suppose it could also just be an extension of Zenith, Hresvelgr seems the type to have a Sohr Khai... Sad dragon is sad...

I feel its Hraesvelgr's lair; or part of it anyway. Its just too close to Zenith (in location and style) and has Dravanian Motes in it (which means the Moogles had a hand in it as well)

Sad Apology...Hraesvelgr mourning what happened to Shiva, what Thordan did to his sister, what he did to start the War (face it, if he didn't save Nidhogg the war never would have begun). Maybe intended as a memorial to all that was lost in this conflict...

But then...why are we there? Nidhogg's brood attack it? We're attacking it to get to Hraesvelgr to get him to help stop Nidhogg? Echo-trip to the past to find a way to save Estinien?

Hm...going with the Echo...what if we go to Hraesvelgr to try to get him to help stop Nidhogg/save Estinien, he gets us to Echo to this place 1000 years ago for something important...his way of apologizing for his part in the war...

Despite the structure is similar, it doesnt seem to be Zenith. Its a hole diferent place.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Sad Apology...Hraesvelgr mourning what happened to Shiva, what Thordan did to his sister, what he did to start the War (face it, if he didn't save Nidhogg the war never would have begun). Maybe intended as a memorial to all that was lost in this conflict...

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Be sure that was not the structure's original purpose, to be a memorial to all that was lost on the conflict.
All the structures on the churing mists and the forelands were made when man and dragon were at peace.

So, just rewatched and picked up on something interesting;

https://i.imgur.com/x2jnVcY.jpg

See that on the floor? Looks like an orange dragon to me... Where have I seen that before... Oh right;

https://i.imgur.com/nxzelV5.jpg
(also, that's confirmation that Ratatoskr was lured out and thus not killed in her lair?)

That would be a depiction of Ratatoskr...

Yep, I'm going all in; This is Ratatoskrs lair and she had some final message (an apology) for Nidhogg that he never got for reasons... At the very least it has some relation to her, given that mural... It would really explain the fairly pristine condition of the place though. I think all of Churning Mists used to look like Zenith, it was heavily implied Nidhogg and his brood set about destroying it all though, with Zenith being spared because Hraesvelgr protected it (with the help of some moogles). So why is this place untouched? It's damaged, but that seems to be more a result of time than Nidhogg attacking it... Hraesvelgr tried to keep Zenith is good condition out of his love for Shiva, makes sense to me that Nidhogg wouldn't touch his sisters lair for similar reasons...

This would also pair up nicely with Alphinauds current "Sacrifices for the greater good are stupid!" character arc... If Ratatoskr sacrificed herself for some greater good... Well... Look at all the good that caused...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

snip

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Your teory seems the more possible one, yea I agree.
The question is, if this is true and we found something, will Nidhogg believe us? He is out of reason.

Well, one of the bosses would appear to be the Mog Chief, so I guess it's Hraesvelgrs territory after all... Makes me wonder where exactly it is... I guess the other side of Sohm Al Summit? Could be below the cloud level too I suppose... Wonder if Hraesvelgr will be the final boss... I'd have figured we were there to defend the area, but with the Mog Chief there I guess it's more of a test? Perhaps Vedrfolnir will show up again...

Welp, called it;

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Majestic and forgotten, its existence unrecorded in the annals of man, a palace rests atop the clouds in the farthest reaches of the Churning Mists. This skyborne splendor was once home to Ratatoskr, brood-sister to Hraesvelgr and Nidhogg, until the treachery of mortals ensured that its stones would never again ring under the she-wyrm's talons. The dragons named it "Sohr Khai," a grieving apology for their failure to avert her fate, and they watched with infinite sadness as Ratatoskr's empty roost was overrun by bird and beast.

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Wonder why we're going there though... Seems like it was named Sohr Khai after Thordan dun goofed... Given it seems to have been overrun, I wonder if we're taking it back to try an make amends with Hraesvelgr... Would explain the Mogs being there perhaps...

I can't believe I didn't stumble upon this before. I'm blown away by the complexity of the language. Thanks to other people for bumping it, and for mentioning your recent finds! I need to visit the Lore section more often...

Dragonspeak has always been a curiosity of mine. Back when my raid group was working on T13, I loved being the raidleader because I would get to call out the abilities as they were happening, including "AKH MORN!" I was so beyond excited when I found out summoners would be getting this ability, appropriately named "Deathflare" (but I still refer to it as Akh Morn). Dragons themselves have always been special to me -- hence my character name, Ryuko (I'm very petite). Anyway, I recently ordered custom plates for my car. I'll be proudly sporting "AKH MORN." Maybe I'll drive it to the Vegas Fan Fest if I can get tickets. ;)

I am still a noobian when it comes to FFXIV but have to say this game has more lore behind every small detail than most RPG's I know. It is simply astounding to see how much lore and detail can be found in this game. The lore in this game will make the hardcore WoW lore lover's head spin. To see that such detail went into one language and that it is not just random ramblings like in most RPG's, but an actual tongue with actual rules and uses. Simply astounding Fernehalwes and well done Square Enix, you just keep exceeding my expectations game after game.

This is simply wonderful, and I would love to see more languages in Eorzea and books devoted to them available in English (and presumably other languages, though I likely wouldn't personally benefit from those others).