A Part, and yet Apart

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Totally on the theoretical here, but I'd be curious as to if our WoL's Echo, in the future, would be strong enough to shield or encapsulate another person's mind-soul space in order to protect them when fighting a Primal.

Alternatively, with an Echo user inside someone's mind-soul space, would the person they're inside (not necessarily in a possession way, but like how the WoL enters Thancred's to force Laha out in Prae) be immune to tempering as well?

It seems to me like a skilled Echo user could be very, very, very powerful indeed. We need to get on studying.

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We need to beat the answers out if Elidibus if we want any because he's the only one who knows the Echo's true limits and isn't intending to share willingly.

I think that the Echo is somehow similar as how is the force on starwars, there is a lightside and darkside. I think here is pretty much the same. I dont think the Ascians know how to master the echo more than orthers, or even if they do they arent using it on a way is being supposed to be used

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I think that the Echo is somehow similar as how is the force on starwars, there is a lightside and darkside. I think here is pretty much the same. I dont think the Ascians know how to master the echo more than orthers, or even if they do they arent using it on a way is being supposed to be used

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I'm not sure if I agree with that. To me the Echo seems entirely neutral; there isn't a way it's "supposed" to be used, because people manifest its skills differently. Even our character goes into people's heads and their memories without others knowing. Do you really think you were intended to see, for example, some of Cid's most precious memories? That's definitely portrayed as not being okay, but a necessity or an accident.

(I'm actually more curious why your first Echo-vision in ARR with Hydaelyn has Lahabrea interfering, as how would Lahabrea have known about you at that point? And why would Lahabrea care about some random Echo user when there are quite a few out there?).

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Isnip

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Well, actually the force is neutral. Is up to you which way you wanna choose. My apologies if I didnt explain well
But here is much the same, a neutral power with 2 points of view, the light representing the good and the dark, representing the evil.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

We need to beat the answers out if Elidibus if we want any because he's the only one who knows the Echo's true limits and isn't intending to share willingly.

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And he won't spill anything unless we either see things his way or stop getting in his way long enough to hear what he wants to do. As far as I see it, he and Ascians in general are like Black Doom from Shadow the Hedgehog; claiming to be helping, even though their actions are clearly beneficial to them only.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

And he won't spill anything unless we either see things his way or stop getting in his way long enough to hear what he wants to do. As far as I see it, he and Ascians in general are like Black Doom from Shadow the Hedgehog; claiming to be helping, even though their actions are clearly beneficial to them only.

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Proof being that he effectively hit the F-All button when he summoned the Warrior of Darkness.

The Truth is that Elidibus never had any intention of doing more than using us. All he wants is to kill Hydaelyn and revive Zodiark. And he's willing to manipulate and sacrifice anyone, including his flow Ascians, to accomplish that.

I'm of the belief that we don't know the whole story of Zodiark/Hydaelyn yet. While Elidibus is certainly ruthlessly determined, especially if it is confirmed that he was the one who gave Urianger the second auracite, but I feel as if SE won't go pure "dark is evil, light is wonderful and perfect and best and the only way."

I think it's too early to be saying that Hydaelyn is pure good and everything Elidibus does is for the sake of pure evil.

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

Oh hey, actually a good discussion going here!

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I agree! I'm sorry to be slow getting back to this; I've had a really rough few days at work, and barely had time to sleep.

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

I can see how Alphinaud can be grating to people.

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He really is. I followed your line of reasoning about his character arc, and it's not that I disagree with you per se... everything you wrote was true, and accurate, and yet. When we first meet him, he's too busy sleeping to participate in the conversation; he does nothing to help protect the merchant's carriage against the beastie attack. (I don't remember if they're on the ship in the Limsa intro, but I figure they must be, since they're in the other two). He doesn't seem to even remember that meeting, which implies that he slept right through the beast attack!

When we meet him and he's awake, he's snarky about his elders. Even at the end of the 2.* storyline, he clearly reveals his disdain for the player when he tells someone, "well, if they make trouble, I'll just have my warrior of light punch them in the face!" (emphasis mine, quote not exact, but gives the idea of what he says).

Now, I'm still running my alt through the content, so I'll have to wait and see what the second viewing brings me by way of understanding of his character in 3.*, but my first run through, with Melly, suggests that he's still an arrogant prick; that he learned neither humility nor humanity by being betrayed by Illbred.

Yea, learning humility and being humiliated are not often the same thing.

Thus why I loved how my DRG Bro Eistenian kept busting his ego bubble before it could inflate.

I have got to get him back from Nidhogg. Maybe an Echo Ception like we used on Lahabrea would work.

With inter-dimensional and space travel possible in FF14's world, I can't help but wonder if Hydaelyn somehow crashlanded into Zodiark world and displaced him as the the world's crystal? Somewhat similar to FF9's Terra vs Gaia? Hence, all the Astral/Umbral Eras.

Anyways, it is interesting that the WoL is really the only non-Sharlayan of the group. We do find out that Sharlayans are pretty arrogant. Looking back, I never found Alphinaud to be too annoying. Had things been different, I can could have seen him end up being an antagonist with his Crystal Braves

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

He really is. I followed your line of reasoning about his character arc, and it's not that I disagree with you per se... everything you wrote was true, and accurate, and yet. When we first meet him, he's too busy sleeping to participate in the conversation; he does nothing to help protect the merchant's carriage against the beastie attack. (I don't remember if they're on the ship in the Limsa intro, but I figure they must be, since they're in the other two). He doesn't seem to even remember that meeting, which implies that he slept right through the beast attack!

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They are on the ship in the Limsa intro (started as an Arcanist), and they slept right through the pirate attack that occurred there. You can even see the twins still asleep for a brief moment after your character and the merchant head back below decks.

Considering it’s implied this was the point where the twins had first arrived in Eorzea, this means you were seeing them at the end of what was likely a very long journey from Sharlaya. Can’t really blame them for dead tired.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

When we meet him and he's awake, he's snarky about his elders. Even at the end of the 2.* storyline, he clearly reveals his disdain for the player when he tells someone, "well, if they make trouble, I'll just have my warrior of light punch them in the face!" (emphasis mine, quote not exact, but gives the idea of what he says).

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I just re-watched that part, and I got the impression that he was actually making a joke...

And I'm willing to bet that's not what he said in the Japanese version, additionally. One translator I read says the English script has a tendency to write 'unnecessary jabs' at Alphinaud. Said translator talks about it here, along with translations of a couple 2.55 quests. I recommend giving it a read, it kinda shows the English script added more of an 'arrogant prick' edge to Alphinaud then was present in the Japanese script.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

Now, I'm still running my alt through the content, so I'll have to wait and see what the second viewing brings me by way of understanding of his character in 3.*, but my first run through, with Melly, suggests that he's still an arrogant prick; that he learned neither humility nor humanity by being betrayed by Illbred.

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I think he’s learned humility. After Riol and the other Crystal Braves loyal to him make it clear they’re sticking around even despite the Braves’ dissolution, Alphinaud says this:

“My grandfather used to say that one could measure a man by the constancy of his comrades... Mayhap I am the exception which proves the rule. Nay, do not protest. I know that I am not worthy of their loyalty, Forename...
...But as Thaliak is my witness, I shall do everything in my power to earn it.”

Well, as far as my dislike for his "Prick Commander" phase during the Crystal Braves Arc, I guess since I honestly like Minfilia for seeming no reason I'm forced to give Alphi a break since from what I've seen Minfilia is almost universally hated. Lol

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Originally Posted by myahele

With inter-dimensional and space travel possible in FF14's world, I can't help but wonder if Hydaelyn somehow crashlanded into Zodiark world and displaced him as the the world's crystal? Somewhat similar to FF9's Terra vs Gaia? Hence, all the Astral/Umbral Eras.

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This is actually one of my current theories, with the added caveat that Hydaelyn is breaking apart tiny bits of Zodiark and using them as part of mortal souls. After all, the Ascians constantly refer what's known in Eorzea as a "Calamity" as "Rejoining" or "Ardor," and according to Sidurgu everyone has a tiny, healthy bit of void in them. The Ascian Prime also states s/he is going to make us "render our souls up to Lord Zodiark, that he might be reborn!" In this case, the Ascians' goal is to kill so many people that Zodiark is "reborn" and retakes his position as world crystal, thus making "everything as it once was, as it ever should have remained."

Another possibility I've come to think about lately is that Hydaelyn really is being a problem to the planet. This concerns the Astral / Umbral cycle. New thaumaturges are taught that the Astral / Umbral cycle is simply one of nature: a period of activity (Astral Fire) is followed by a period of rest (Umbral Ice). This isn't bad, or evil, or wrong, it's simply how nature works. Now, remember that the Sixth Astral Era went on for 1500 years, and the Seventh Umbral Era only 5. That's nowhere near enough time to balance things out. Without records there's no way to know for sure, but in the 3500 years between the fall of Allag (Fourth Calamity) and the start of the Seventh Astral Era, how many of those years were spent in an Umbral Era? How long does either last on average? Either way, Lahabrea's monologue after you defeat Gaius leads to the conclusion that something Hydaelyn herself is doing is messing with the aetherial flow of the world and throwing everything out of whack...

To this I would posit that Hydaelyn is forcing the world to stay in an Astral state when it needs an Umbral one out of the flow of nature, and this forced expenditure of energy is having a very negative effect on Hydaelyn (the planet), which is why Lahabrea says that "if the growing [aetherial] imbalance is not redressed, the very laws of existence - both physical and aetherial - will be warped beyond all recognition." Hydaelyn is forcing the planet to stay in an Astral state out of compassion for us mortals, but this is having an extremely detrimental effect on the world. (Thus turning Hydaelyn into a sort of Etro-like figure.)

It's doubtful either of these theories are right, but.

The second is my theory as well. Since you mentioned Etro, and I'm always mentioning XI, I'd like to point out that's also what Altana did. In her compassion and love, she basically caused a breakdown of existence and everything started devouring itself (Atomos).

I've seen it mentioned, too, in a similar vein that they might go full FFIX, with Zodiark and Hydaelyn being the Terra/Gaia and the Ascians working as the "angels."

Honestly, we can make up theories forever but none of them will probably be answered until 4.X or 5.0. It's going to eat me alive.

(The only theory I'm close to certain about, however, is that Pashtarot will be the next Ascian we kill due to being the last remaining of the watery triad, which seems to be the "problematic" of the Ascian bunch).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

the Sixth Astral Era went on for 1500 years, and the Seventh Umbral Era only 5. That's nowhere near enough time to balance things out.

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Did the Seventh Umbral era truly end? I know that the leaders of the three Eorzean City-States declared it so, but do they truly have the power to do so, or was that just political posturing? If there is a natural cycle of astral and umbral eras, why would the proclamations of heads of state matter to that cycle? For that matter, many of the forces which marked the Seventh Umbral are still going on... wars and rumors of wars; primals and rumors of primals. No matter what political posturing is happening, I think we're still in Umbral VII.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

Did the Seventh Umbral era truly end?

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It "ends" either when you beat Ultima Weapon or when you stop the regeneration of Bahamut Prime beneath Northern Thanalan, both of which take place 5 years after the seventh Calamity (along with every single event since you got off the wagon at the beginning of A Realm Reborn). Current Word of God is that the Astral and Umbral labels are mostly arbitrary, and that declaring an Astral Era is enough to make it so.

However, I remember an event from the Seventh Umbral Era story in 1.X, in which I believe it was Urianger and the Circle of Knowing member of your choice brought up that certain types of magic (i.e. golem creation) were only possible in an umbral era do to some special aetheric somethingorother, but that particular note seems to have been more or less quietly retconned by the presence of astral-era-created golems in colonial Sharlayan.

Actually, that is a really good point with the golems, but I don't think it necessarily mean it's retconned. If anything, it actually supports the idea that you really can't just arbitrarily decide what is and is not an Astral/Umbral era and that there is probably some aether flow behind it. I imagine flows do not immediately change, so even if we "declare" it Astral, and all signs point to an Astral era rising, the Umbral flow may still be in effect for a few years.

In human anatomy terms, it's like getting a drug or hormone out of your system.

(I still want to know why that scholar was panicking about the crazy aether in the Shroud during 2.5).

Didn't the devs say that it's officially an Astral Era and not simply a PR move by the GC leaders?

I still have a hard time believing that it's an Astral Era due to that researcher in 2.55 saying that the Aether in the environments is dwindling