The Real Problem with Parsers

The real problem here is that the OP is generalizing too much.

Yes, parsers CAN be used to discriminate and exclude players. But in the end it's nothing but a tool. I can misuse a hammer if I so choose, but does that mean there should be a restriction on hammers? I could abuse the Lootmaster system if I wanted, but should we have that removed or excluded? The bigger point is why should we restrict or avoid a useful tool for the community as a whole just because of the POSSIBILITY of misuse by a few?

Let me put another perspective on this, similar in concern, but different: Astrologians. Their heal potencies were INTENTIONALLY low-balled initially because the devs didn't want people to just enforce double AST comps (and even now, still don't). Is that kind of cynicism justification to limit a new job? If you say no, then consider if the OP's cynicism is really justifiable for not wanting parsers in game AT ALL.

There ARE people who won't misuse it and WANT to get better, rather than simply accepting the (rather condescending by the way the OP uses it) "casual" label and never seeking improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ajx

Having a parser would only make clueless players keep extra high requirements in addition to the absurd ilevel requirements there are for some premade parties

---

I'd rather be kicked based on a useful metric than a useless one. This argument actually better supports the pro-parsing side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'd rather be kicked based on a useful metric than a useless one. This argument actually better supports the pro-parsing side.

---

A4 normal 2 runs /Ramuh Pony farm : 1k DPS or kick.

I don't see how this would support the pro parsing side .

Or let's say kick lowest dps who's lower by just 50 dps cause u got no clue why u wiped. This is the same community that kicks someone for explaining tactics to a first timer, or an AST for being nocturnal or early pulls every hunt.

Hardcore raiders who really need it are using parsers. Those who don't use it right now probably don't really need it

While many players feel they have the right to play however they like, they fail to realize that in a MULTIPLAYER online game, one should have the common decency and courtesy to do one's best for the sake of the GROUP. One should not take a single-player mentality into an MMORPG, which many players are currently doing.

In a given dungeon with two equally geared DPS, if one is doing 1000 DPS and the other is doing 400 DPS, UNLESS the lower DPS is new or still learning rotations, such a discrepancy should not exist under normal conditions. But you'll hear about people saying that they are playing with one hand, watching a movie on another monitor, or just too lazy to care. But to them, it's okay because they paid their monthly subs. If that's the case, then they should have been more considerate of the other players in their groups who are willing to put in the effort to complete a dungeon quickly and efficiently.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to be the person stuck with completing 90% of the work for a group project at school while the other team members got to slack off but still receive the same credit. And if there were a way to prevent that from happening, you'd probably want to make use of it for any upcoming group assignments. Parsers are an objective way to measure player contribution in dungeons/raids, so that one can monitor other people's input but also strive for personal improvement.

TLDR: In a single player game, do whatever you want. But by engaging in an MMO, you can't just think of yourself and whatever is most convenient to you. Parsers provide a means of gauging everyone's effort in a TEAM BASED scenario. There is no reason to prohibit parsers for day-to-day use; only those abusing parsers should be reprimanded.

Also, it's unfortunate that the term casual is now associated with being bad and elitist with being a prick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ajx

Those who don't use it right now probably don't really need it

---

We've covered all the negatives by now. Now let's cover some positives:

There's a thread about MCH openers. If that guy had access to a parser perhaps, he could - and this might sound crazy - PRACTICE different openers til he found the most effective one. How would he know it's effective? Numbers. Maybe using one buff before another or one skill after another may produce a better result in the end? That parser may help him.

There have been people who operate on half-gathered, or misinformed knowledge of their jobs for a long time, mainly due to just not having visual evidence of how wrong it may be. Perhaps they still get the job done, but imagine if they could now see that they're producing B-grade damage, when a few changes and tweaks could easily make them A-grade?

Why don't we stop looking at all that can go wrong and look instead at what just might go right?

Not everyone uses parsers, especially in easier content, but there are enough that do, that you're going to run into them a lot.

I've grouped up with a ton of players that have the mentality I see the OP and some others have. They clearly don't care about doing good. Do I see a lot of players being kicked or harassed about it? no...

Maybe my server/database is extra nice (doubt it), but I really don't see all the harassing that seems to take place according to others... Not saying it doesn't happen, but it rarely happens, and a lot of those who harass someone, are gonna do it even without a parser.

People keep mentioning that you can check the enmity bar to see how much DPS someone is doing... Well, if that's the case (it isn't), then what do you think would happen if you couldn't use a parser? Players would learn how to determine how good someone is doing, by just looking at that enmity bar. Some might be smart, and know how skills, burst and other things can affect it, and base it on that, and some will just harass players that aren't actually doing bad, their job just doesn't generate as much enmity... either way, it's not going to fix anything. Should they remove the enmity bar too??

IMO the OP is being the ass right now... Ever considered that there are a ton of players that really likes using parsers, and don't harass players with it? The same thing can be said about a ton of real life things too... The internet have been abused by a ton of people through the years, should that be turned off just because of that?

EDIT: There are a lot of assholes in savage though, but if you're doing raids, you can't expect to get very far, without having used a parser/asked someone else about your DPS... Which is another reason it's stupid to not let people use parsers

All I'm seeing from this thread is a couple of people QQing because they probably got kicked from dungeons for having shit dps and now want them gone completely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

Gonna bite here: on average it should take around 15 to 20 minutes to clear a dungeon, unless it is one like Aurum Vale in which you add at least an additional 10 minutes on top of that estimate.

---

Was just curious as to what others thought. I always said bout 20-30 minutes. When I go into an instance I'm expecting at least 30 minutes which I don't think is unreasonable seems about the average. In anything other than the high end content what good does a parser do anyways. I mean we've all run expert till our eyes bleed and we already know how fast mobs should die. You can tell without a parser that someone isn't doing as much as another.

Quote:

---

Was just curious as to what others thought. I always said bout 20-30 minutes. When I go into an instance I'm expecting at least 30 minutes which I don't think is unreasonable seems about the average. In anything other than the high end content what good does a parser do anyways. I mean we've all run expert till our eyes bleed and we already know how fast mobs should die. You can tell without a parser that someone isn't doing as much as another.

---

Then why are you against parser. I'd rather precise numbers than *Yep, SOMEONE in the group is bad*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by segagamer

All I'm seeing from this thread is a couple of people QQing because they probably got kicked from dungeons for having shit dps and now want them gone completely.

---

Honestly, it's never the good players crying about parsers. Hasn't been in any MMO. It's always been the "It's my $15!" crowd who can't perform, getting upset that people actually expected them to perform the bare minimum expectations of their jobs. And then they try to hide behind the logic of "We're the majority!" You wanna see how the terribad majority supports a company? Look at WoW, dropping millions of subs every time they cater even to the fails. What nobody seems to get, which has been thrown around in the industry quite a bit lately, is that the casual "majority" is actually pretty toxic to the industry as a whole. The quick fix crowd is detrimental. Because in catering to them, you lose the people who would be lifetime fans of your product, the more serious gamers. Nintendo actually just realized this recently, and said so in an interview. When you cater to the quick fix crowd, you alienate the people who would support you most.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hallena

Then why are you against parser. I'd rather precise numbers than *Yep, SOMEONE in the group is bad*

---

Not sure I said I was against it, just don't really see a need for it in the lower end stuff. I don't care if people use them or not.

Noone's going to care in a dungeon or the "lower end stuff". People (possibly me, I cannot confirm nor deny) use parsers at all levels of content. If they do it is because of their own personality, not anything to do with whether or not there is an "official" parser.

Having a more robust combat log and addon functionality (the two prereqs to an actual parser) will only help the community get better at playing etc.

The reason you have so many bads is

1. The rotations in this game are really, really lame. They do not reward spontaneity nor decision making, but rather rote memorization and button bloat and as a result it leads to a high skill floor required to execute properly. The rest is situational awareness which I won't really comment on as the difficulty of that depends on player and encounter.
2. Did I mention the rotations are really lame?
3. Man the rotations suck.

I actually wish they took MORE out of WoW's book and make classes accessible but leave room to improve on every encounter, inject some procs and resource pooling/bursting to actually put some power back into the player's hands.

Right now a mechanical 1234 static rotation does better than a decision making priority engine, so that says a lot about the game's design. Literally if you had enough keys you could just go through 1234567890abcdefg and move around and you'd be done.

Oops I started ranting again.

Parser ingame or outside, doesn't matter. Bad and dick players will be there.

soooo, if i understand the topic:

- lets ban testing tools because they show how much someone is bad?

Its not a topic related to "how to get better / learn your job better" its a topic related to "how to avoid getting the results of ( the lack of) effort".
That is why there are 2 sides on this, those who are afraid of results and those who aren't.

In DF, most of the time, people can't test your dps unless using a parser/looking at the threat meter. But the lack of a parser can't hide a crappy tank or healer or the feeling that the mobs are dying slowly.

Mobs are dying slowly, you try to see wants going on and if you see that the source of the issue just doesn't care, then kick him. Why should you care if he doesn't? I mean, every time i see a monk that doesn't change his position, i kindly ask first and my reaction depends on his answer. And thats without looking at the parser/threat meter.

In DF there is no such thing as "1k dps requirement" because its DF.
In PF, which SHOULD allow someone to put requirements that he thinks are necessary, a parser would just be a confirmation of a passed requirement.
On the other hand if you want to lie and cheat your way in, that is another topic.

Its no shame to be bad, to be a beginner and to learn. On the other hand, cheating, lazy, getting carried and avoiding responsibility that you have when you enter a group, is.

parsers are just tools that summarize someones ability with a job on a static target that doesn't fight back.
Not wanting it, would be like kicking out tests in school.
Yea there are special schools (for both talented and for disabled people) and tests are tailored for their needs, but i have yet to see a school that doesn't have a system for evaluating effort.
And toxicity that you are talking about is the result of a clash of expected results.

Too high expectations, laziness, cheating or being an aHole (in general), are there with or without parsers.
Adding them (as a dummy training only) would only help people and reduce the frustration of people that want to get good. As for the others, its painfully obvious that people will not stick with them unless they are same-minded about the game/effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ajx

A4 normal 2 runs /Ramuh Pony farm : 1k DPS or kick.

I don't see how this would support the pro parsing side .

---

Ravana PF set to i180 minimum. Because, y'know, that's totally not clearable at 170 or lower. Meanwhile the i185 MNK is putting up atrocious numbers because he doesn't know his class. Would you rather be barred from the party for not meeting an entirely subjective metric, or get rid of the weak link objectively holding people back? Meanwhile, if someone's kicking DPS when DPS aren't the problem, leave the group. Feel free to put up a PF below theirs explaining to the server that this person has no clue what they're doing. Or is that to much like improving the community for you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zlotjko

snip

---

HE gets it. Well said!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ajx

A4 normal 2 runs /Ramuh Pony farm : 1k DPS or kick.

I don't see how this would support the pro parsing side .

---

People can set whatever requirements they want for their pre-made. Hell they can say "Everyone must wear pink" and it would still be fine, its a pre-made.

Parsing isn't fair simply because pc users can do it and console users cannot. Those numbers should not be used against anyone because we all do not have fair and equal access to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

Parsing isn't fair simply because pc users can do it and console users cannot. Those numbers should not be used against anyone because we all do not have fair and equal access to them.

---

Welcome to the conversation, where we keep asking for SE to implement an official parser specifically so that PS3 and PS4 can have access.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

Welcome to the conversation, where we keep asking for SE to implement an official parser specifically so that PS3 and PS4 can have access.

---

I personally don't care if we can have them or not. I just think it's unfair for people to use parse numbers against each other in unfair ways. Someone says you're doing 900 for example and acting like a douche about it, meanwhile they're doing 800 and you can't call them out on it cuz you can't see the numbers. I know most people won't use their parsers for evil, but I'm sure situations like this to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koroko220

I personally don't care if we can have them or not. I just think it's unfair for people to use parse numbers against each other in unfair ways. Someone says you're doing 900 for example and acting like a douche about it, meanwhile they're doing 800 and you can't call them out on it cuz you can't see the numbers. I know most people won't use their parsers for evil, but I'm sure situations like this to happen.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

Welcome to the conversation, where we keep asking for SE to implement an official parser specifically so that PS3 and PS4 can have access.

---

You're trying to argue that parsers are bad because PS3/4 don't get them and people could harass people with it, but we're arguing that PS3/4 should have them and harassers should be banned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

You're trying to argue that parsers are bad because PS3/4 don't get them and people could harass people with it, but we're arguing that PS3/4 should have them and harassers should be banned.

---

Then carry on :p just putting my thoughts in on it when I know I shouldn't stick my nose in it lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

but we're arguing that PS3/4 should have them and harassers should be banned.

---

That's the hard part, though. That sounds agreeable, to be sure, but when something is a part of the game, it becomes harder to police. Right now Parsers aren't officially allowed, so if you use it unwisely, it's easy to justify punitive measures. But if parsers are just another part of the game like, say, gear, well it's much harder to say that you can't use that against somebody. It's not a 1-to-1 comparison, as you can always get better gear, but... for instance, someone I play with has arthritis in their hands. Still more people just don't have very good reflexes. Their numbers being inferior aren't things that they can improve and aren't generally their fault, but they would suddenly be responsible for them by the game's very UI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

Their numbers being inferior aren't things that they can improve and aren't generally their fault, but they would suddenly be responsible for them by the game's very UI.

---

They're already responsible for them. For people with actual legitimate issues hindering their play, they need to be able to properly assess their own play level and determine what content they should be doing and how. Just like everyone else should be. If someone sees the person you're talking about and thinks they're underperforming, there are many reasonable courses of action from there that all lead to a simple explanation of the circumstances and both parties moving on. People who physically or mentally can't muster the needed DPS shouldn't be doing content that they can't finish, agreed? And they shouldn't be harassed for it, just like they shouldn't be harassed for anything else because harassment is unacceptable.

I'm unsure about parsers. I mostly play healers (and mostly SCH at that) so it's pretty easy for me (and everyone else in the group) to tell if I'm doing okay. I've healed up to Final Coil raids, not progressing any further with that currently because it's hard to find folks interested in doing old content. I am definitely not AlexS ready, I'm sure, though I'm not incompetent by any means. I'd call myself a casual because I'm not all that bothered about raid progression; it's generally something I look to do further down the line and mostly with friends.

I'm levelling my BLM currently - semi-levelling anyway - so that I can be a bit more fluid when it comes to content. Some of my friends have only healers at 60; if I don't have another role to fill, I don't get to play content with them. I am finding BLM post 56 very intimidating. I'd like a personal parser in-game so I can try and work out for myself the best ways to maintain enochian, how long I can safely hold onto a proc, the best times to use key-lines. That kind of thing. But - and for me this is a very big BUT - I'm already terrified to go into dungeons with folk I don't know because I'm scared they won't take on board that I'm new to this, new to those dungeons as a DPS, and trying my hardest. I know just a couple of personal attacks will be enough to shatter my confidence completely, at which point I'll go back to avoiding DPS jobs completely. Playing a deeps fills me with terror; how do you guys deal with the grief you get?!

I guess what I'm saying is that - yeah, I get that you don't want to carry someone, but can't you try and be a little patient with those of us at the start of a pretty steep learning curve. I know it will take me a lot of practise to pick up all the nuances to getting good at BLM; if I get abused in a dungeon because I haven't made it there yet, I'll most likely just give up. I'm not an incompetent player, I do okay on healer, but healing doesn't scare the bejesus out of me! My BLM will be relatively well geared because I've been using my law tomes to do that, but it won't have the expertise for some time that will allow me to pull out 800-1k DPS. If I can parse myself, I can study what works and what doesn't. If someone else can parse me, and they're a dick about my crap effort, that's not going make my day more sunny and fluffy-bunny filled!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

People who physically or mentally can't muster the needed DPS shouldn't be doing content that they can't finish, agreed?

---

How can I put this?
Okay.
I don't know if you've ever been or dealt with someone who is disabled, but an important aspect of being so is trying to break through previous barriers. Sometimes these can be consistent wins, and sometimes they're flukes that happen in moments of extreme competence and focus. These moments are incredibly important. So locking oneself out of something they might complete (especially with job mixes, interactions and other facets of teamwork) is a really bad place to be in, and a bad precedent to set. You're not required to help someone try and overcome their limitations, but that's kind of the whole story thematic of the entire game and I would kind of hope that would resonate in some way.

Yea but teamwork or not if you're doing 900 dps in faust you're not going to get anywhere. And throwing yourself at it over and over isn't going to magically teamwork your way to victory.

It is very easy to metric tanks and healers - if people die, someone is doing something wrong.

But dps have a responsibility, that generally speaking is (if you let it be) much more important than the healer/tank responsibility.

There isn't any tanking or real healing checks. There is only dps checks. So if you're not downing the boss because of low dps it means literally that your dps is failing. And some times people fail so spectacularly as to be as noticeable as a tank eating a buster w/o any mitigation, except its harder to see because there isn't any transparent dps. And if that person whines about being 30% less dps...well its your party. Deal with it how you wish.

I'm still waiting for the day that any person who's ever argued against a parser and then took time out of their day to belittle me about my stance on it, to come up with a legitimate reason why a PERSONAL PARSER shouldn't be implemented.

I invite every one of you against parsers to come up with an argument. The main argument we always come back to is that it can be used as harassment. Well you can't be harassed for something no one else can see. I want to know my numbers. I couldn't care less about yours until it becomes detrimental to the groups success. There's no argument that I can think of where me knowing my own numbers at any given time would be bad.

Imo parsers should be allowed.

They check chat logs anyways when people are reported so obviously if someone's like oh your only pull 800 dps you scrub they'll know they are abusing said system. You can already call people out without them why not at least add an idividual parser so you can at least see what your doing.
And on that note if your pulling 400-500 dps as a dps in any of the extremes you can't even get mad for being kicked your just pulling the whole group down. Pf or df that's just harming the party over all. In dungeons if people pull bad dps tough luck chances are your gonna clear it anyways so suck it up and carry them through. In extremes however if you can't meet the dps check cause someone's pulling that low your only gonna solve that 1 way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Yea but teamwork or not if you're doing 900 dps in faust you're not going to get anywhere. And throwing yourself at it over and over isn't going to magically teamwork your way to victory.

---

See I like this. There's a certain limit of DPS you can put out yourself that will compensate for the lack of DPS someone else in your group is putting out. Ignoring the fact that you giving 110% while someone else is putting out half the effort that they should is irresponsible, there is a limit to how much you can make up for. Teamwork can only take you so far and how much of it is teamwork when one or two people aren't giving their best?

Actually ravana is doable with everyone pulling roughly 400-450 dps. I've done it with some dps at 300 or lower lol.

Yea...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

So, you're defining "casual" differently than the typically agreed upon definition, which is "plays less than (x amount of) hours per week." Because a lot of people can be casual and still clear content, if we go off of the normal definition.

---

Veering kinda off topic here, but I've noticed that casual->hardcore seemed to be used as terms by people for two entirely different scales (time spent in game, and difficulty of content completely/enjoyed). And it's constantly confusing people as to which scale they're talking about.

I think gamers need to use the old dnd 3x3 alignment grid style, with time on one side and difficulty on the other, and come up with a new set of terms so everyone can know they're on the same page :P
(For the record, totally chaotic evil)

As for on topic, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with parsing on test dummies, or a gold saucer combat arena with fake fights(possibly mimicking some patterns of bosses) and parsing. I also don't think most people would have a problem with a summary at the end of the dungeon similar to pvp ones.

I personally don't have a problem with parsers available at will, as long as there are firm rules about harassment that are enforced. But I can understand why there is some concern, hence the above 'middle of the road' possibilities.

Is there any reason why folks like OP cannot form their own non-judgmental, parser-eschewing communities to enjoy content?

We can all homogenize ourselves with understanding of our shortcomings and work to improve, and they can live in ignorance because being unique is more important than being useful - especially when an ancient dragon is trying to eat you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Actually ravana is doable with everyone pulling roughly 400-450 dps. I've done it with some dps at 300 or lower lol.

Yea...

---

You realize that's worse than 2.55 dps. Let that sink in. There's absolutely no excuse for this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AskaRay

Technically, they give you 90 minutes to do the dungeon, and anything faster than that is "quickly".

---

....stahp

/10char

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

How can I put this?
Okay.
I don't know if you've ever been or dealt with someone who is disabled, but an important aspect of being so is trying to break through previous barriers. Sometimes these can be consistent wins, and sometimes they're flukes that happen in moments of extreme competence and focus. These moments are incredibly important. So locking oneself out of something they might complete (especially with job mixes, interactions and other facets of teamwork) is a really bad place to be in, and a bad precedent to set. You're not required to help someone try and overcome their limitations, but that's kind of the whole story thematic of the entire game and I would kind of hope that would resonate in some way.

---

I'm gonna be that guy. And I really hate that I have to be. Just because someone has a disability, it doesn't excuse them from having to put out the same performance as someone who does not. Whether that's here in Eorzea, or in the real world in any sport situation, it is unreasonable to use your disability as an excuse, when you're doing any team activity. And this is coming from someone whose physical limitations prevented me from playing any sports at all. I didn't expect to be able to join a team, fail horribly, and say "You have to accept that I can't perform. It's my disability!" The same holds true here. If you cannot do it, you cannot do it. To pretend otherwise, and hope that maybe this time, the stars will align, and give you just enough power in your broken body, just to accomplish something ONE TIME... It is not fair to the other seven players you play with, to hold them back with something neither they, nor you, can control.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

I don't know if you've ever been or dealt with someone who is disabled, but an important aspect of being so is trying to break through previous barriers…

---

Right. Which can happen a number of ways. If someone is disabled, I'd recommend that they take a moment to consider any new content they're running. Most such people I'm assuming won't have much reservation against running normal and expert dungeons, even in pugs. But there are completely competent and able-bodied people who refuse to do even extreme primals among strangers. I'm not saying players with disabilities should wait for full premades or anything, just that they consider (as everyone should consider, really) whether they can make a fair contribution to a group. If they feel they can, by all means queue, but be aware that they will be held responsible for their numbers the same way everyone else in the party will. Most parties I've seen don't mind one person's numbers being low as long as things are going smoothly. Or they can make friends and try to push through with steady teamwork among understanding friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Yea but teamwork or not if you're doing 900 dps in faust you're not going to get anywhere. And throwing yourself at it over and over isn't going to magically teamwork your way to victory.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isala

Just because someone has a disability, it doesn't excuse them from having to put out the same performance as someone who does not.

---

Eh, going to respond to these two parts together. I'm totally fine with people with slight disabilities (y'know, not quadriplegic or anything) joining statics that are willing to work with them. If the static is willing to wait a little I see it as perfectly valid. And as long as the disabled person is putting forth about the same level of effort as the others (even if the result's not the same), then I don't consider it a carry, really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isala

snip

---

Good.
God.
Video games for the elite are too important to let the disabled escape their lives for a minute even in a random pick-up group. Cool.
I want off this planet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

. . . can't you try and be a little patient with those of us at the start of a pretty steep learning curve.

---

Let me put your mind at ease, Elladie.

People like yourself are the ones I have absolute patience for. BECAUSE you're trying. I was completely new to MMOs when I started this; I pushed myself to become good, and once there, become better. And while I did it without parsers, I'd imagine being able to see the numerical results of my efforts would've only gotten me where I wanted to be much quicker and more efficiently. But I would be the last person to dump on someone learning a different job (and I only FINALLY leveled BLM in 2.5. Until then, I didn't get it either, lol.)

One last note: Do NOT give up, especially based on what someone else says. If you're not good now, keep trying, keep leveling, and keep practicing. I tell people all the time, if you by chance catch me at a training dummy, I'm not screwing around. I'm actually practicing and refining what I know. Hitting 60/ilvl210 or whatever is nothing but a foundation to build upon. Build YOURSELF up.