Any reason to launch A4 Savage as an impossible raid?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

How long did it take T5 to fall originally? Wouldn't that be an appropriate comparison?

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October 26, 2013 @ 4:10PM PST was when BG first downed T5.

Game was released on August 27th, 2013 so about two months later, though there are a couple of factors that slowed many groups down. I believe the biggest culprits were maintenances that brought T5 offline and the fact Twisters felt more like a crapshoot then actual skillful dodging, from what I understand (I didn't really start to pay attention to raids until Second Coil was released).

are you just salty because you want Alexander 4S to be easy?


like seriously. stop it. This is the most challenging content right now. I'd rather keep it this way than killing it on the first day, and just making me severely bored after a few weeks of farming.

Took around two months for T5 to be downed due to the lack of gear AND/OR skill.
If you have skill, nice. But gear takes you as far as what you have. Meaning, probably A4S was designed to be killed in full i200, if not i198 average.

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

Took around two months for T5 to be downed due to the lack of gear AND/OR skill.

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Pre-nerf Twisters. A lot of groups beat it the day they did the twister update.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

October 26, 2013 @ 4:10PM PST was when BG first downed T5.

Game was released on August 27th, 2013 so about two months later, though there are a couple of factors that slowed many groups down. I believe the biggest culprits were maintenances that brought T5 offline and the fact Twisters felt more like a crapshoot then actual skillful dodging, from what I understand (I didn't really start to pay attention to raids until Second Coil was released).

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This was also around the time the game was still new, so you mainly had people still leveling/grasping how the game worked. getting used to it, etc. Broken jobs, like how WAR was pretty much a borderline useless paper tank. (my, how times have changed) and other badly needed job adjustments. so factor in all those and was harder to get T5 down quickly. after more Coils came out people were ready for them, with abusing melded gear.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Lmao at this game's apologist community.

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I'd rather be an apologist than a malcontent.

At least the Apologists are happy, rather than needing to complain at every design choice a game developer makes.

As a disclaimer, I'll point out I haven't done savage Alexander yet. That being said, here's my take on new content.

It should be possible to beat by skilled players when it's added to the game. Doesn't matter if the skill required is particularly high, just that it's at least possible.

That means that any gear requirements need to be designed with current best in mind, not several months down the line when we're all packing level 250 god-tier equipment. If it cannot be currently beaten, then there's literally no point to it even being in the game. It's effectively 'not ready' for the players.

Sorry unlike wow the content will not be beat in the 1st week?

When raiding was actually multi tiers of content it was always assumed you would need to gear up in 1 tier b4 moving on to the next.

The devs were probably looking for a way to keep the top content from being cleared within a week. Honestly, I think it's fine that each encounter has a minimum gear/stat threshold for clearing. You don't just walk in there, learn how to dance the dance, and boom loot pinata. My static isn't exactly a frontrunner; we didn't have the DPS to down Oppressor until our DPS got their Esoterics weapons. All that means is there's players out there that are better than us, which we already knew. The thing is, the vast majority of people don't have a prayer at clearing A1S as it stands now. Many still won't have a prayer at it in full Esoterics gear and will be whining for the upgrade materials to be put into the 24 man raid cause it's dyeable and we know how people get about dyeable gear...

Setting the bar this high for gear means that we really get to see just how hardcore a small portion of the raiding community can be. Clearing stuff when you're below the stat/gear requirements for it is rough as hell, but when you finally down it it feels really really good to have accomplished a feat of skill like that. :3

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

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It's clear-able as people get more gear from previous savage floors and eso gear, inching toward the ilvl195-200

Some people have a problem that it can't be cleared in I185, which would be around what the average would be as soon as savage came out. That is, they want to the likes of A4s to be clearable without needing gear from previous savage floors (which you know, sorta defeats the purpose of progressive gearing).

This is not an action game or a shooter. Gear progression is an important element in traditional RPGs and should remain one of the requirements for beating savage. Other requirements are skill, teamwork and commitment. This isn't a matter of what's fair or unfair. You want to make it so that players automatically have sufficient gear for any content at it's implementation date. If that was the case we wouldn't even need different item levels of gear. That's not how RPGs work.

What next, a complaint about level 60 dungeons being implemented at launch when no one had a high enough character level to enter? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Lmao at this game's apologist community.

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Is that the new buzzword for fanboy? How clever and original. "Any person who is not unhappy with a game or it's feature must be a blind follower of the franchise." I'm sure any effort put into explaining the flaw in your logic would be wasted, so I'm not going to bother.

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2794651519

Current content end game bosses are not and should not ever be beaten within a week or two of release. If they are then the gear progression was to low or to easy for it and it was never a challenge to begin with.

My guild in wow wiped on Blackhand 102 times before getting our kill. The average ilvl of the entire group went up by 6 before we got it. Closer and closer each time. Some screw ups and misplacements of abilities but we eventually got it. People that cannot down something the moment of release have an unrealistic expectation of boss fights and end game content.

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That list reminded me of C'Thun. Good times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJVRgun7M7c

Ridiculous OP. Vertical progression theoretically states that you get SA1-3 on farm so your party is properly geared before taking on SA4. This debate about skill/gear is moot; you need the skills to maximize your damage/healing/mitigation of course, but the gear are the stat modifiers that enhance those 3 focuses directly. It's skills+gear =win.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Wow, someone doesn't feel good today, huh?

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It's funny how defensive OPs can get when people don't just agree with them. A game isn't all about skill, if it was all content could be done in level one gear and there be no need to gear up.

Skill can only get you so far, it's the gear that helps you overcome even tougher odds by allowing you to have room for error, to hit harder, to take more hits, to heal stronger etc etc. I feel the people who complain how it's the "need" for gear to beat x content would also be the same people complaining that the game is to easy because you don't have to get x gear to beat it.

AS4 unbeatable with pre-Savage gear: unexpected, but fine.

AS4 unbeatable with full best-in-slot from AS1-3 and all other sources of gear currently in the game: we may have a problem.

Currently, no team out there fulfills the second set of criteria, so this is not yet a problem worth worrying about.

Whats the point of gear if it wasn't required for content?

Why is this a surprise? The devs explicitly stated that they did not anticipate FCoB being cleared as quickly as it was because they hadn't expected people to use pentamelded gear to bypass the HP checks.

Obviously they've fixed that problem this time around.

Hardcore raiders complained about raids being too easy, they fixed that for this raid tier, and now we get this...

I know what you're going to answer with, "this is just artificial difficulty"... Do you even know how players progress in raids? You can't make content that is just hard mechanically, without it being beaten very quickly.

With these gear checks, content stays relevant longer, and it encourage groups to actually improve, rather than just wait a couple of weeks, and then suddenly you are over-geared for the content... From what I've heard, A4S is gonna be a tough challenge for most groups, for a long time.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

No, we should be gearing only to make it easier. Previous Savages have never required gear from months ahead to clear it, only true skill mattered as it should be in a real hard raid without cheap difficulty.

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errmm you will have hated the raid a few years ago.... gears is not there for make easier to beat a content, but for beat the content. that a huge trouble with the new raiding community of the present mmorpg community, they think that the gears is the reward, when is not the case. often some content was not beatable before get the whole armor from the raid. and the reward was to finally beat it at the end. indeed the gears make it easier to pass the previous stage of the raid, but the last part must be gears checked.

The thing about these 'Week 1' clears is that the people that did it prepared for it. They took what the learned in previous raids, extrapolated what they'd likely need in the way of stats, geared up for it and knocked it out of the park with good teamwork and ability. These weren't random people gathered through Duty or Party Finder. And understand that a week consists of more than just a single day. They probably formed scouting parties to run the raid and get a gist of the mechanics before going for the full clear. You know, the things serious players do when they want to be bloody serious. You can't half-ass 'Week 1' clears, it just doesn't happen.

Could be worse, they could throw this at us instead of a gear check

http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/133...e%20Virtue.jpg

It's ok, now thanks to the casuals screaming that FcoB was cleared the first week by the most dedicated raiding guild while they were still wiping to the first boss, we have this shit of raid that's made only to block the majority of players by retarded mechanics and gear checks to keep us subbed longer. But don't be delusional, most won't go past A3S even with full Esoteric gear and those will be the guys that complained about FcoB's difficulty. Enjoy your normal mode that can be done in one evening and your red scripts.

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Originally Posted by Seifa

It's ok, now thanks to the casuals screaming that FcoB was cleared the first week by the most dedicated raiding guild while they were still wiping to the first boss, we have this shit of raid that's made only to block the majority of players by retarded mechanics and gear checks to keep us subbed longer. But don't be delusional, most won't go past A3S even with full Esoteric gear and those will be the guys that complained about FcoB's difficulty. Enjoy your normal mode that can be done in one evening and your red scripts.

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http://www.mysavings.com/img/link/large/9826.jpg

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Originally Posted by Seifa

It's ok, now thanks to the casuals screaming that FcoB was cleared the first week by the most dedicated raiding guild while they were still wiping to the first boss, we have this shit of raid that's made only to block the majority of players by retarded mechanics and gear checks to keep us subbed longer. But don't be delusional, most won't go past A3S even with full Esoteric gear and those will be the guys that complained about FcoB's difficulty. Enjoy your normal mode that can be done in one evening and your red scripts.

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Really, I thought it was the hardcore players that were screaming that, claiming that 'just anyone' could clear their precious high end content and therefore their loot was worthless.

Seems the truth is called out finally - salty players will be salty.

Speaking logistically. I don't see any problems here. SE said that they tuned the rating on Savage higher than Coil was. But most would not clear coil unless they had upgraded current-level gear/weapons anyways.

Anyways, it's fun watching the pendulum swing.

I've only seen up to the 4th leg on stream, but the only thing that was a "DPS check" was the Straf Dolls and they weren't necessarily a high one if you did the mechanic correctly.

I'm curious what the last phase is like and how tight the enrage is, but I guess we've got awhile until someone streams/reveals that much progress.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Is that the new buzzword for fanboy? How clever and original. "Any person who is not unhappy with a game or it's feature must be a blind follower of the franchise." I'm sure any effort put into explaining the flaw in your logic would be wasted, so I'm not going to bother.

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If any controversial decision is against the players, lowers their gameplay experience and players approve it then yes, I will call it a blind following. First and foremost, we are paying customers and shouldn't allow ourselves to be treated like that. But I see no much self respect in apologists. They'll approve whatever, even impossible content for which people are not ready. What are players supposed to do in weeks/months before they gather enough gear for A4S clear? To practice mechanics which they already nailed? Or, more likely, just to continue paying their subs because it's the only real reason behind 'gear wall'?

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

If any controversial decision is against the players, lowers their gameplay experience and players approve it then yes, I will call it a blind following. First and foremost, we are paying customers and shouldn't allow ourselves to be treated like that. But I see no much self respect in apologists. They'll approve whatever, even impossible content for which people are not ready. What are players supposed to do in weeks/months before they gather enough gear for A4S clear? To practice mechanics which they already nailed? Or, more likely, just to continue paying their subs because it's the only real reason behind 'gear wall'?

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Seriously, who are you to claim who is an apologist? You follow them on every post or something?
I have no problem with a raid sometimes requiring more gear to do stuff. Why? Because it might not be impossible after all. Numerous times in mmo history stuff was claimed impossible and yet people managed to defeat it.

Or maybe they deliberately made it require weeks of gear farming (and less for those that can clear A1S-A3S) because it keeps those players paying subs longer.

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Originally Posted by Priya

Gotta make a 4 boss raid "last a long time" somehow. The sooner the bosses die, the sooner people farm up their BiS and unsub until the next Alex installment.

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Well, it took 2 years to clear Plane of War in EQ2....

Nothing was so much as touched in there until the level cap was increased it was that brutal...

Oh I'm glad it's not beatable like T13. I even do derp things when first time enter T13 without watching any video yet I can clear it as SCH.

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Originally Posted by Eul

Oh I'm glad it's not beatable like T13. I even do derp things when first time enter T13 without watching any video yet I can clear it as SCH.

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Yes, you can clear it now easily in unsynced mode. But can I ask you how many weeks/months passed after T13 launch, when the difficulty was still relevant, until you've beaten it for the first time?

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Originally Posted by Eul

Oh I'm glad it's not beatable like T13. I even do derp things when first time enter T13 without watching any video yet I can clear it as SCH.

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T9 will still wreck your face if you derp mechanics too much.

People still believe they deserve everything?

Ok then. If it was easy and A4S was beaten by now, we would have a bunch of threads whining over how easy Savage is, how there is nothing left to do until the next major raid patch, Square Enix is catering to casuals, blah blah blah. Looks like the dev team just can't win this one.

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Originally Posted by Aldehido

People still believe they deserve everything?

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Yes, we deserve a raid which can be beaten. Whether we'll beat it or not is another matter entirely.
It's like when you are trying to buy a thing in the shop and have money but still can't buy it because the shop is closed for another month. With major difference being is you are paying money for your waiting time.

Why launch Eso weapon listed and/or Gordian weapons when you need 3 weeks the minimum to buy Eso weapon ?????????

YOSHIDA PLS.

/sarcasm

It's pretty expected to need to farm the first couple bosses in order to do the later ones. That's not new in the world of raid design.

Only this time they made the last fight so tough that even world first people need to do it.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

A4S is straight up impossible even if all players do all mechanics perfectly. Don't you think it's a bit unfair?

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I do not think it is unfair, since the coil storyline is still being held hostage by hardcore raiders opposed to a story mode.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I do not think it is unfair, since the coil storyline is still being held hostage by hardcore raiders opposed to a story mode.

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You can do content intended for level 50 as a level 60 at this point, how is it being held hostage now?

"A4s is too hard. Waaaa!"
Clearly people have forgotten T5 and how long that took to beat.
It's fine the way it is. Who really wants content you can blitz in the first week?

Rocks fall, everyone still dies for 25k damage.