On the lack of humanity in our community.

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Originally Posted by Nordya

I sympathize with you OP, went through something like that in another game and now play very casually.

It makes me laugh when I read in lots of external places the community is so nice. Not my experience at all.

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It was inevitable given the way the content is designed to be played, where the whole group is punished for the failings of a few.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

Certain aspects may be bad but others may be good, you do not ditch a good thing for something trivial. Furthermore you suggest the environment is the issue when clearly it's the people that are the problem. Do not defend those who would prey on others.

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It's obviously not trivial for the OP, which is what is concerning us...
You also shouldn't take the OPs comments about their static as gospel, they aren't here to defend themselves and there is always the possibility the OP being kicked from it had more to do than their refusal to change classes. Remember there's three sides to every story, his side, her side, and the truth.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

It was inevitable given the way the content is designed to be played, where the whole group is punished for the failings of a few.

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I agree, but it's not the failing of a few. It's the general mindset of e-peen stroking of clearing things with the most optimal setting for something you will replace next patch or if not in two patch max. The many failing of vertical progression. The mentality of we can't wipe. It's boring.

I think what the OP is getting at is how the gaming community these days treat others around them as if they're only tools to an end and that they aren't actual people behind that screen. It does dehumanize in a sense because if you don't remember the fact that you're interacting with another actual person you tend to have the general attitude of today's endgame players that say and do things they wouldn't normally to one they acknowledged as another human being. It's ok to want an optimal party, it's ok to want to clear content quickly and efficiently, and it's ok to want to maximize your time online. However it's not ok to just unload on people and break bonds built over stupid things like virtual items and the like. Over the years it's been drifting toward the point where people start viewing others as nothing more than NPCs used to further their goals. If that doesn't seem to be a loss in the human aspect then I'm not sure what does.

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Originally Posted by Yoshiyuki

The servers could be shut down tomorrow for some mysterious reason. That sense of superiority (or fighting back against the elites) would die with the game. Where would some of you be then? Forced to look in the mirror at the wasteland that is your life and your choices. That would be torture for you when it shouldn't be.

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*tips fedora

I cringe every time I see "Hardcore" on an MMO forum.

I'd be hard-pressed to find a thread more overdramatic than this one. Did SE redirect the forums to Tumblr by mistake?

Coming from another game that has you have a class per character which was nerfed into the ground while buffing the other healer to the max, plus the insane gear (RNG) grind involved in upgrading your gear. Having an underperforming class that no one wants and IS actually a liability to the party that you now can pretty much delete. Believe me, this isn't even half as bad, though it all gets down to personal experience.

Don't tie yourself to a job, diverse your playstyle. Statics can be fun or the opposite, same as raiding in general. I too have witnessed lots of drama, resulting mainly from raiding.
When I was in a static myself I never shared the us-vs-them view, maybe because mine were quite nice... but I've seen others having it. Even telling me I'm no longer a "good" player because I don't raid since T9. .-.
I've had two statics falling apart before clearing T5 and T9 respectively, 2 server transfers and 2 longer breaks because of that.
People stealing my housing items (long story) because thinking of how much time and effort was spent on those things and being mindful of others in general is not something all are capable of. My third "alt-static" had people in it only caring about the loot and their clear and making fun of me assuming I couldn't understand what they said, jokes on you! :b

It's a lot more fun to play the game however you want, without feeling the necessity to log in and wipe in a dark dungeon for hours. I really like what we have now with Alexander. Not everyone is made for raiding, OP. *hug*

I found some comfort in reading this, Thank you. While some may argue this doesn't bare much resemblance, I was reminded of it. There has been some conflict in my FC lately regarding it as a whole and not being 'end game' enough. While I know the response is "well such and such can go find another FC", but when you thought you were on close terms with said person it does hurt a bit when they start putting you and your other FC mates down.

Ultimately I am tired of people putting others down for the way they decide to play the game. And it irks me that said people can't understand how trivial that is.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

I find it hilarious how much people scream to not take the game seriously and then proceed to run hardcore statics, number crunches, extreme gear checks and usually immense screening bordering on paranoid elitism.....for a coffer.


For those of you faulting the OP for getting emotional, have you ever had a similar experience and took it better? Back up your statements before you take a moral high ground.

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For once I agree with someone's post, well said.

OP just be who you are and play the game the way you like, true friends will accept you for who you are, the rest is not Worth your time, as long as you remain on the right side and remember that behind the screen there are person just like you.

Mei

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

I find it hilarious how much people scream to not take the game seriously and then proceed to run hardcore statics, number crunches, extreme gear checks and usually immense screening bordering on paranoid elitism.....for a coffer.


For those of you faulting the OP for getting emotional, have you ever had a similar experience and took it better? Back up your statements before you take a moral high ground.

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Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

I did my fair share of hardcore raiding which included all that you said combined with other stuff like making strategies. However those were part of the game for me and never taken anything more.

When you use terms like "losing part of my humanity" it is a red alert that you need to stop cause it effects you on more then just ingame.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

I did my fair share of hardcore raiding which included all that you said combined with other stuff like making strategies. However those were part of the game for me and never taken anything more.

When you use terms like "losing part of my humanity" it is a red alert that you need to stop cause it effects you on more then just ingame.

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Did you get some emotions out of Heurchefant (cant spell that name) story ? if yes, who are you to make such a comment and point fingers at those that let themselves to be dragged into the game too much? remember that if you can feel something for your char you are too taking it beyond the in-game....we all did that really at one point...ergo why people need to have the understanding that what they feel as a char is not to be transposed into real life, or taken with into real life, which is the most difficult part to do...we are all human, and OP is right, in this game because of anonimity people make it a point to be all but human they forgot they are human really.

Mei

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

snip

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Your example is something completely different then what this topic is based on about. Becoming emotional because of the story in game is no way negative unless you start being depressed when a character dies of course. Once again, if you do get depressed from playing a game because of x or y reason, just stop. You are not doing yourself a favor to keep going.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

I did my fair share of hardcore raiding which included all that you said combined with other stuff like making strategies. However those were part of the game for me and never taken anything more.

When you use terms like "losing part of my humanity" it is a red alert that you need to stop cause it effects you on more then just ingame.

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When the game involves a community of people, along with talking heads, that's where that line gets blurred, especially when you find yourself either the outsider or fearing becoming the outsider.


It sounds easy to just find another static, fc, community, or linkshell, but for some people it isn't. Sometimes they saw friends on the other side of that achievement fence. Sometimes they've lost friends trying to get over it to be with them.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Did you get some emotions out of Heurchefant (cant spell that name) story ? if yes, who are you to make such a comment and point fingers at those that let themselves to be dragged into the game too much? remember that if you can feel something for your char you are too taking it beyond the in-game....we all did that really at one point...ergo why people need to have the understanding that what they feel as a char is not to be transposed into real life, or taken with into real life, which is the most difficult part to do...we are all human, and OP is right, in this game because of anonimity people make it a point to be all but human they forgot they are human really.

Mei

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There's quite a big difference between feeling something for your favorite character when something bad happens to them and the OP's rant where they decide to use phrases like "emotional genocide" because their static wouldn't let them play the class they wanted.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

There's quite a big difference between feeling something for your favorite character when something bad happens to them and the OP's rant where they decide to use phrases like "emotional genocide" because their static wouldn't let them play the class they wanted.

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The need to accept the standard build, the insistence on watching the video, in this case: playing a job because the job you wanted is shunned? While they aren't the words i'd use, i do understand where they are coming from, with regards to high lvl play and the prevailing attitudes about and within.

I lost some friends and respected fc mates due to endgame raiding and statics lmao I realized how toxic it can be if you let it consume you.

I just said the hell with it and became a more causal raider, one thing I learned after giving up hardcore raiding is that it really doesn't matter getting a world first clear (outside of bragging rights), and just because you're causal doesn't mean your bad (I played with causal raiders who put hardcore raiders to shame).

If that means waiting for echo and nerfs to enjoy it with my non raiding friends so be it.

To OP I suffer major depression and anxiety and this game help distract me from my darker thoughts and emotions. Find a group of people who are willing to enjoy the game with you. It took me a bit to let this sink in. :D

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Originally Posted by Kallera

When the game involves a community of people, along with talking heads, that's where that line gets blurred, especially when you find yourself either the outsider or fearing becoming the outsider.


It sounds easy to just find another static, fc, community, or linkshell, but for some people it isn't. Sometimes they saw friends on the other side of that achievement fence. Sometimes they've lost friends trying to get over it to be with them.

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I never said anything like static,community, fc or linkshell.

I said to straight up quit the game. I am not kidding here, if you get depressed from playing a game STOP playing. You are only making it harder for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Yoshiyuki

The servers could be shut down tomorrow for some mysterious reason. That sense of superiority (or fighting back against the elites) would die with the game. Where would some of you be then? Forced to look in the mirror at the wasteland that is your life and your choices. That would be torture for you when it shouldn't be.
.

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I always say that to people who are so-in-game oriented about grind, MMO, it means people.. Now put all the grind into a game that is MMO but with you only playing alone.. can you survive? you have three roles you want 3 others to fill the space to do the simplest run, mind you require additional 4 for 8-players raid, and more 16 for a 24-players raid!

As OP, I only few people who are good, and they usually leave the game since they are already soaked with the negativity/creulity of players around them.

And for all the ugly faces I cannot add to what Oscar Wilde said:
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." - Oscar Wilde

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

There's quite a big difference between feeling something for your favorite character when something bad happens to them and the OP's rant where they decide to use phrases like "emotional genocide" because their static wouldn't let them play the class they wanted.

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my example was meant to show that, from the moment you feel something that is in-game related and that your persona behind the screen can get involved into something as trivial as a NPC charactere death, then said person is capable of taking what others char albeit non NPC can say or do and feel it as a real person. That is why i took this example, tehre is no difference if you can feel for a NPC you can still feel equally for anotehr non NPC char, actions will affect you, what they say will affect or can affect you, and if it happens, then I am sorry you do take stuff ingame outside of what it is supposed to be. The person I aswered said in a short way that if peopel take real what is ingame they should go stop playing because that is not what it should be...

See my point....eh? so no I am not at all off topic.. might want to think about this comparison..just because you feel for a NPC doesnt make it less better or worse then for a *real* charactere eh? and the effect that it can have can be very destructive if not mature or ready enough to understand what where and how ...and distanciate themselves from their charactere, if you cant do that, you WILL be affected by ingame stuff as a real person and can go up to some huge extend, much like this of OP.

Mei

first world problems

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Originally Posted by Assirra

I never said anything like static,community, fc or linkshell.

I said to straight up quit the game. I am not kidding here, if you get depressed from playing a game STOP playing. You are only making it harder for yourself.

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You'll find plenty of people who didn't make that decision with an mmo, and often mention social connections such as fcs and lses as the reason.

Im not saying its wrong advice, I'm saying people oft don't make it as simple as that largely because of their playing experience beforehand.

Ok, first of all, I'm going to say one thing that totally contradicts what others are saying. Depression is NOT bad. It's not a four letter word, it's not even a curse word, and it's definitely not this fantasy evil that the Western mental health medical field has been trying to tell us. Depression is a natural human emotion. Just like happiness isn't bad, and sadness isn't something evil, depression isn't bad.

What is bad, is when you don't express your depression appropriately, or try to suppress it, or channel it inappropriately as this OP seems to have been doing. Taking out your frustration on others, treating others badly, because you're frustrated and depressed IS bad, but the emotion is not bad. I say this as someone diagnosed with Bipolar Type II. There are times when I'm playing FFXIV, where I get a mood swing, and suddenly I'm taking everything around me personally. Someone could be busy and not say hello when I say hello, and I start to think, "Oh my god, they all hate me." That's my problem tho, and since I know when I'm in my depressive moods that I overreact, I take precautions and even take 1 or 2 week breaks until I feel better. The one thing I do NOT do, is take out my mood on others. I have no right to treat others badly because I personally feel badly. And I think that is what bugs me the most about this OP, for all they talk about being victimized, they openly admit and most of you seem to have skimmed by the fact that they have abused others. I'm sorry, but two wrongs do not make a right.

I do agree with those who have said the OP needs to take a break. When you start to approach a game like a job and stop having fun, breaks are needed. Sometimes quitting is needed.

And I agree with those who don't understand about the OP being so upset at needing to change jobs for their static. Part of being a good team player is being flexible, and if you can't be flexible enough to adjust to your group's needs, even if that means changing jobs, you're not being a good team player, period. Tanking is not my favorite job in the game, but that hasn't stopped me from working on my PLD, because I am decent at tanking, if not great, and sometimes my fc needs a tank.

As for statics, I was in one on my server for a while with FFXI friends, for the first Coil. Finished turn 5 and people started to lose their tempers, it stopped being so much fun, and I could have gotten angry with them, I could have complained. Yes, some were acting out inappropriately even, but I can't fix other people. So I quietly told them, "Hey, I need a break from raiding, but I'll still be around." I ended up leaving that fc but to this day I'm still on friendly terms with them, because I treated them fairly and behaved myself, even if they weren't themselves behaving.

And my current fc doesn't do statics at all. They're very casual at raiding, though that doesn't mean they don't try the harder content, they do. What they do instead tho, is a rotation system for raiding, where people sign up every week and personally I find it works better, people don't always have to raid every week, especially if they're feeling burnt out and need a break. And someone is almost always available to fill in, for those who do need a break. It works much better I feel than statics, and helps prevent a lot of the burn out I've noticed going on with statics.

Personally, as a FFXI vet myself, I've always tried to treat people politely. I say hi, sometimes chatter, and yes I run into quiet groups, and sometimes I run into real douche bags, and if they're really bad, well I abandon group (though I don't do this very often). I did this recently with a recent Steps run where the tank pulled before we had people on cannons and no one was willing to help with snares or cannons when I kept calling that they needed attention. I could have raged, yeah, I could have pouted, but I want to have fun in a game, so I did something I rarely do, I quietly abandoned and left and went off and did the beastman crafting dailies.

Fact of the matter is, no one can remove your humanity from you in FFXIV unless you allow it. People treat you bad, you don't have to interact with them, you can leave. If you lose your humanity, it's because you made the personal choice to sacrifice your humanity yourself. You lost your humanity because you decided to act inhumane and associate with those who treated others inhumanely, end of story. You're not a victim, although that is how you tried to paint yourself in your original post, so much as an active participant in your decline, imo.

This is why I never have gotten heavily into endgame, not in FFXI, not in WoW, not in SWTOR, not in RIFT, and definitely not in FFXIV. I don't want to destroy my enjoyment of a game by treating it like a duty or job I have to fulfill. And I certainly don't want to ruin it for others by treating it that way. I can still enjoy endgame, though often as a slower pace, with casuals, and I do.

And yes, I'm sorry you had to go through those unpleasant experiences, no one should have to put up with others treating them that way. Just realize you have a choice in who you associate with in the future, and be more picky with those you do play with from now on, make sure they have not only their best interests in mind but yours as well, in whatever game you choose to play.

tl;dr Astro tears.

Eh...I may get thrown eggs at but I think OP is going a bit overboard.
I'm an AST main too and it does pain me a lot to have AST at the bottom of the barrel that I actually want to go back to main SCH because of it...
and seeing PF's not wanting us really does suck...It's because the job is in a tough spot.

Calling people inhumane is going to the extreme's....There was no reason whatsoever to toss any weapons of any job because of your static.
AST is going to get help some day. There are AST's that can clear A1 and A2 so just keep at it.

At the end of the day, it's a game...You play what you want and you try your best and have fun with it!
That's why we're all here, for fun. There are really bad people in this game, but try and find a static who accepts you and stuff.
If people seriously get pissed off and stuff over end-game then they weren't a good static/friends to begin with.
I do wish people could be a little more sympathetic and stuff but people are human, can't expect everyone to be nice which sucks.
Just gotta have to buck up and put your foot forward and keep going.

There's a really great website where people like OP and Racist Au Ra guy are welcomed with open arms.

https://www.tumblr.com/

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Originally Posted by YukariOro

Ok, first of all, I'm going to say one thing that totally contradicts what others are saying. Depression is NOT bad. It's not a four letter word, it's not even a curse word, and it's definitely not this fantasy evil that the Western mental health medical field has been trying to tell us. Depression is a natural human emotion. Just like happiness isn't bad, and sadness isn't something evil, depression isn't bad.

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You're confusing depression (a medical condition) with sadness (an emotion).

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Originally Posted by Yoshiyuki

A little update on my story: changing to white mage impacted me too negatively. I had to leave my static. I discarded my Esoterics and Ravana canes after doing so. I lost a great deal of patience and understanding from the switch. I lost part of what made me who I am--ultimately, my humanity. The stress made me a liability. What made it worse was that I felt like I couldn't talk about it. I only wanted to be understood by the people around me; I frustrated myself because I knew that my concerns were too deep for them to relate to.

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Dear gods, calm down.

It's a video game.

A

video

game.

You make it sound like it made you suicidal or something.

And at the risk of dehumanizing you, I think you have some issues with obsession if you get like this over video games. It's a distraction. A game. Nothing more. And I say this as someone who's in alex savage and has a static myself.

So chill. Have fun. Stop this.

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Originally Posted by YukariOro

Depression is NOT bad.

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Pretty much every psychiatrist/psychologist would disagree with you.
Including my own.

Depression is a horrible affliction that can destroy people's lives and take them away.

It is the purest incarnation of 'bad'.

I have to agree with the people here saying take a break if it is affecting your personal life drastically outside of the game. Maybe cut yourself off from those who are toxic in your life. Even if the break is only a week. Just sometime to cool down. I understand your desire to not play a certain class anymore and the uphill battle facing the new classes. Do not let these people get to you. Don't let them make you want to throw away what you've earned or whatever. There are plenty of groups who are willing to take a AST to savage. Just take your time and find one. Keep your head up. The phenomenon of people being egotistical douchers on the internet isn't limited to this game as I'm sure you've noticed and isn't going to stop anytime soon even if astro is buffed times 1000 it will still exist. The problem here is with the people, not the class. Narcissism knows no bounds on the internet. But at the end of the day you just gotta do you. Do it to the best of your ability and do it until it's done. Surround yourself with ppl who will support you and your decisions and just keep practicing. My GF is currently managing with a AST in savage and often doing better than her healing partners most of the time so it is possible it just takes work and effort. The player defines the class not vice versa and generalizing the ability or performance of a player in lieu of evidence based solely on their class is an informal fallacy by definition. It's akin to judging a person on skin color instead of personal character.

Anyhow I wish you the best and good luck. I hope everything works out for you in the end.

Basic concepts that I follow for situations such as this.
1) People have emotions and you can't stop them from feeling. Don't judge a person based on their emotions but instead on how they act out those emotions.
2) If you are in a toxic situation and you can leave, then do so. It's not worth the time or energy.
3) It's much easier to have a good time and enjoy yourself when those around you are as well. Help others around you enjoy themselves and you'll probably have a better time too.
4) Treat others as you would like to be treated. If you don't like others being mean or rude to you, don't be mean or rude to others.
5) Real life and your own well being always take higher priority than a game.
6) Games are meant to be enjoyed. If you are not enjoying yourself overall, perhaps it is time to take a step back and reevaluate why you aren't enjoying yourself and whether you should should continue playing.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

You're confusing depression (a medical condition) with sadness (an emotion).

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So you're saying I'm not feeling an emotion when I feel depressed, and because I have a medical condition that can affect my moods, that I can't feel depressed over other things, or experience the emotion? Just because I have a medical condition that affects my emotions doesn't mean I lack emotion, and specifically that emotion, which is what you are seeming to imply. Therefore, I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed.

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Originally Posted by RaidenJetstream

Dear gods, calm down.
Pretty much every psychiatrist/psychologist would disagree with you.
Including my own.

Depression is a horrible affliction that can destroy people's lives and take them away.

It is the purest incarnation of 'bad'.

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You're completely misunderstanding what I was saying. What you're calling bad is the impact the emotion if not properly dealt with can have. We are talking about two different things entirely. You talking about the effects and actions of someone how someone who is depressed behaves, while I am talking about the trigger, the initial feeling depression, long before any action, good or bad, is taken. Cause and effect; two entirely different things.

I have bipolar type II, which is mainly depression 90% of the time, with maybe 10% hypomania. I spend most of my time depressed, I know very well the negative impact that depression can have on someone as a result, as it has greatly affected and limited my life at times. What you're not understanding about my comment however, is that I'm saying the emotion itself is not bad. How one copes with the emotion, or fails to cope with the emotion, however can be bad. That I definitely am not arguing with, and have experienced it within myself and have worked to adjust and improve.

It's all about coping skills, but labeling something so subjective bad or good, I've found does more harm than good. I used to start feeling bad because I was depressed. How dare I be depressed, I must be a horrid, bad person to feel such an awful emotion, I must get rid of the emotion. Once I grew to accept that it was just an emotion I had to express and deal with and learn to cope with better, that in of itself the emotion wasn't bad, but how I acted because of that emotion that mattered more, well it made a huge difference and I stopped beating myself upside the head because of feeling a so-called negative emotion. What was so much more damaging to me, wasn't the feeling of depression, but the feeling that I should be ashamed for feeling depressed to begin with. I didn't like that and ever since I adopted this approach and outlook on depression, I find feeling depressed much easier to cope with.

Emotions themselves are neutral, neither good nor bad. It's when and how we act out those emotions or don't act them out, that determines how good, bad, or evil they are.

And yes, I'm aware that the Western medical field field views depression as something bad, but I gotta tell you, it was reading up and researching how some Eastern cultures deal with depression and learning how they don't treat the emotion itself as something bad, that changed my impression of depression. Those that view depression in this more neutral way seem to be able to better cope with it at a result and that made me come accept that it was okay to feel depressed sometimes.

Feeling depressed didn't and doesn't make me a bad person, and that was the message I was getting from Western medicine. And that message was that if I was depressed I was doing something bad, and can really wreck havoc on someone's self-esteem, let me tell you. I'm already feeling bad, because I feel depressed, and now I'm being told I'm bad to feel depressed at that, which made me even more depressed. What a double-whammy.

So, just because Western Medicine doesn't agree with my outlook, doesn't make them right. At one point Western medicine insisted bleeding people made them better too. Things change, and Western medicine sometimes is wrong.

Anyhow, arguing whether depression is bad or good was not the original intent of this thread, and I'd hate to see the subject matter get any further off-track. I've had my say, so I'm going to stop talking about depression, good or bad. =)

Great post OP and while i cannot contribute anything much to this post i will say i know of a few Astrologians that do raid in Savage. I guess the class itself is perceived as more of a support class, a healer class in between sch and whm from what i am understanding but all my encounters with astros they seemed strong. I do not have my astro fully levelled so do not yet understand it however.
Players are ok to put up what they want in pf for instance but have seen astrologian left out in some. As for selling runs well sorry but i have never believed in people who sell and also players that buy runs. It just seems wrong to me, then again it could explain some players that are god awful with the title "Final Witness", lol

My fc has a really good AST and we've never once told him he can't do high end content with us. I think the biggest problem is, some people play the job poorly, and sadly it reflects badly on those who play it well. I know while I have been leveling AST, I often get comments about how bad AST is when I first enter a dungeon, only to be told at the end how great I am. I think this is the case for all jobs, some who are just bad at the role, unfortunately sour it to some degree for those who are great at the role.

@OP

I sympathize with your post and recognize a lot of things in your post. I think the best approach to this, and any other game is to figure out what you want, why you play and what you enjoy the most; combine the answers to these questions, and make it your focus. Most of all, constantly remember that there are real, living, breathing, and FEELING, people behind the characters we see and interact with, *and* treat those people with the respect that we all deserve. It sounds like you have come to similar conclusions.

Without wanting to use labels too much, although I have used them in the past, there are definitely two communities in this game that are clearly defined and different from each other - hard core raiders and so-called casuals. There is a lot of middle ground where players who are not entirely one or the other fit, however in my experience, to the hardcore raiders in the game, you are either a raider or you are not, there are only two groups of player. To a raider, if you are not up to their standard, you are a liability and you should leave. In my experience, that group of players (hardcore raiders) displays a distinct lack of patience and humanity because they see players who are not up to their standard as a liability and a hindrance to their progress.

It's true that Casual players who talk in general terms about raiders are not exactly helpful either, the can be (and I have been myself) dismissive of raiders. Not helpful, but not entirely personal either. Talking about a group in general doesn't help much, but it's not the same as telling a player who fails to meet some arbitrary standard that they are a bad player and should do something else, git gud or leave. Now, the thing is, generalizations are often easy to disprove with a single anecdotal account, but they exist for a reason.

What I have found though is that the general mood of the 'casual' community is much less confrontational and inhumane than the raider group. I think this has to do with the fact that a) the kind of content attempted is not so finely balanced that a single mistake by one causes a wipe followed by rage; and b) there is much less dependence on others for personal progression; and c) progression is seen as secondary to enjoying the game. Because of this, people don't mind if your job is sub-optimal compared to another, or if your rotation is imperfect, or if you are just not as quick reacting as others. They care that you try and are fun to be around.

Before any raiders say that's true of raiders as well, it is, but it's not. It's true for as long as you are not a liability, and then it goes out the window. My own personal experience and that of many friends who regularly raid still, or who exited that community after one to many rages has revealed this truth.

Now, regarding this topic and the many replies. I find it utterly fascinating that some people reply in ways that 100% confirm the OP's general meaning, and then act like the OP is in the wrong, or is some kind of fragile special snowflake. The irony is that the inhumanity and intolerance of your reply absolutely confirms what the OP says, and utterly invalidates your suggested course of action.

I would like to address one topic of debate that has been wrenched open seemingly in an attempt to discredit, or perhaps discourage, the OP. Depression. People, there are so many shades of depression and conditions that present as depression, trying to suggest tranquilizers as a solution is grossly insulting. Of all the players I know in this game, I'd say that approximately 50% (+/- 10%) are depressed to some degree or another. It may be mild and passing or clinical and severe, the person may/may not need medication to assist them, and they may/may not take it.

But you know what, the *truth* is that what matters is how I and others treat them, not whether they are depressed or whether they are taking medication. How they are treated by others is what actually matters and there is no excusing mistreating other players. It's inexcusable to do so, and worse to turn around and say that the person who has been mistreated should take some medication to help. No, absolutely not.

What we're really talking about here, this mistreatment, disrespect, or treating people in an inhumane manner really boils down to varying forms and degrees of bullying. To suggest that someone should take a medication as a counter measure to bullying is offensive and insulting to the victim and it excuses the bullying and those who perpetrate it.

There are only three ways to deal with bullying, stop it at the source; failing that remove the source; or else remove the victim from the environment where the bullying is taking place if no other solution is viable.

Let's not beat about the bush here though. Bullying is wrong in ever way it can be, and it must be opposed and eradicated. Unfortunately, bullying is also pervasive in the gaming community, and in certain quarters it's seen as an acceptable way of behaving, and those unable to cope are weaklings and should get out. I'm sorry folks, but that mentality, and the community which tolerates or even encourages it is simply wrong. It needs to stop.

However, realistically affecting that kind of change is beyond the scope of a single player, game or developer. It's up to the community as a whole to change things, and if the community lacks the will or ability to do so, the only viable solution is to segregate yourself from that part f the community an find a batter way forward with players who share your point of view and sensibility.

Personally I have long advocated stepping off the gear treadmill, not worrying about progression, playing for fun, not farming or grinding, talking to fellow players, and measuring your 'progress' against the story alone, not the top tier content, and certainly not the raiding groups who have it on farm already. Once you make that change, you realize that in an MMORPG the journey is far, far more important than the destination. So enjoy the scenery, smell the roses, enjoy the people and make some fond memories for yourself.

To every cynical person who scoffs at the idea that players are people and we should treat them with respect, or that you can form social or emotional bonds in a game; you're so very wrong, and you're missing out on the best part of MMORPGs - the humanity of the players you meet. Without that humanity, you might as well be playing a single player game.

In short, I agree and sympathize with the OP. People should be nicer to each other, stop bullying and remember that this is a game and games are ment to be fun.

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Originally Posted by Apoptic

first world problems

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What an utterly asinine reply. I was not aware that the emotional impact of the mistreatment of others was limited to the 'first world'. I though that it was more clearly a part of the human condition and pretty much universal to humanity. But, what do I know, I'm only human.

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

I think what the OP is getting at is how the gaming community these days treat others around them as if they're only tools to an end and that they aren't actual people behind that screen. It does dehumanize in a sense because if you don't remember the fact that you're interacting with another actual person you tend to have the general attitude of today's endgame players that say and do things they wouldn't normally to one they acknowledged as another human being. It's ok to want an optimal party, it's ok to want to clear content quickly and efficiently, and it's ok to want to maximize your time online. However it's not ok to just unload on people and break bonds built over stupid things like virtual items and the like. Over the years it's been drifting toward the point where people start viewing others as nothing more than NPCs used to further their goals. If that doesn't seem to be a loss in the human aspect then I'm not sure what does.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

No, actually, it does contribute directly to gil-buying, just like extremely overpriced goods in the market do. Unless your price for selling clears is reasonable (I've never seen a reasonable price offered), it does contribute to gil-buying because the only way the people who can't clear it can afford to buy the clear is by buying gil. Same problem with ridiculously priced crafted goods: If you have the money to buy it without buying gil, that most likely means you can make it yourself. So the only people who would need to buy it would be those who can't afford it... and thus buy gil.

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Well said, and 110% agreed.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Exactly, which is why you shouldn't allow yourself to be so vulnerable to depression.

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Someone else commented that this was a "pretty ignorant statement", and I agree with them. Your statement implies that depression is something that you can control and/avoid. It's not, and based on your other posts you should already know that. However you seem to me to have convinced yourself that your coping mechanisms are somehow able to protect you from depression. Even if that is true for you, that doesn't make it true for *anyone* else. There are many, many forms of depression and many ways for it to express itself. Bipolar disorder is one of those. Again though, you should know already that something that presents a solution, or at least improvement to one person will not necessarily help another since every person is different and each person's depression is unique to them, even if you share the same diagnosis. Anti-depressants help some, not others, the same medication may be miraculous to one, and treacherous to another, cognitive therapy could be curative to one, and drive others into a deeper state. Some depression is primarily based on biochemistry, and some based on stress, life circumstance, environment, behavior and/or history.

Correction
My original reply incorrectly made it seem that Adire had suggested the use of tranquilizers. In fact they did not, Ceodore on the other hand DID.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Seriously, calm down. Take a Xanax or Valium or something.

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Suggesting that someone who is depressed should take tranquilizers misses the mark by several light years.

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Originally Posted by YukariOro

My fc has a really good AST and we've never once told him he can't do high end content with us. I think the biggest problem is, some people play the job poorly, and sadly it reflects badly on those who play it well. I know while I have been leveling AST, I often get comments about how bad AST is when I first enter a dungeon, only to be told at the end how great I am. I think this is the case for all jobs, some who are just bad at the role, unfortunately sour it to some degree for those who are great at the role.

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As much as i want this to be true, you cannot deny the lack of healing abilities AST got in trade for an rng buff system that selene can do better most of the time.

I'm not denying your point, that AST definitely needs some buffing. But then again, I mained Red Mage as healer in FFXI for a long time, it had the smallest mp pool and required a lot of multitasking to play well. I managed it, though later I changed to white mage simply because I hated having no down time and coming away regularly with migraines after concentrating so much on playing Red Mage healer. That said, red mage was an awesome healer, in spite of its limitations, and there were many. I think I'm approaching AST in much the same mindset, trying to make the most of what AST has. Just because it's a weak class, doesn't mean it can't be played well, just as Red Mage in XI was the weakest healer, but still healed admirably well when played by a good player.

That said, I have no intentions of switching to AST from Scholar. I'm mainly leveling mine so that when I'm paired with an AST, I know their strengths and weaknesses and can compensate when I'm on Scholar, which I dearly love.

This is some top tier angst for a video game.

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK5dHqXCLbo

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Originally Posted by YukariOro

So you're saying I'm not feeling an emotion when I feel depressed, and because I have a medical condition that can affect my moods, that I can't feel depressed over other things, or experience the emotion? I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed. Just because I have a medical condition that affects my emotions doesn't mean I lack emotion, and specifically that emotion, which is what you are seeming to imply.

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That's not what I'm implying at all. You said that depression itself is a "natural human emotion" and that it is "not a bad thing". Let's clear something up here real quick. Depressed people are sad, but not all sad people are depressed. Clinical depression is not a natural thing. It is the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain which causes feelings of sadness and dejection often for no reason at all. It is certainly not a good thing. Depression also tends to cause self-esteem issues. Many people that have depression feel as though they have no control over their own emotions. I can tell you from experience that being so angry you hit/break things or feeling so completely desolate that you can't even get out of bed in the morning are very scary things. Feeling the emotion (sadness) does not mean that you suffer from the rest of what the medical condition (depression) brings to the table.

Here's a nice collection of graphs to illustrate the difference.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

snip

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They will never understand because they aren't trying to. They don't understand that feeling sad is different from laying in your bed for 6 months straight because you don't have the energy to even get out of said bed. They think that just because they felt a sad that they are depressed and it's absolutely hilarious and tragic at the same time because it undermines the struggle that anyone who actually has depression is going through which leads everyone to tell them "Oh it's in your head, just cheer up!"

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Someone else commented that this was a "pretty ignorant statement", and I agree with them. Your statement implies that depression is something that you can control and/avoid. It's not, and based on your other posts you should already know that. However you seem to me to have convinced yourself that your coping mechanisms are somehow able to protect you from depression. Even if that is true for you, that doesn't make it true for *anyone* else. There are many, many forms of depression and many ways for it to express itself. Bipolar disorder is one of those. Again though, you should know already that something that presents a solution, or at least improvement to one person will not necessarily help another since every person is different and each person's depression is unique to them, even if you share the same diagnosis. Anti-depressants help some, not others, the same medication may be miraculous to one, and treacherous to another, cognitive therapy could be curative to one, and drive others into a deeper state. Some depression is primarily based on biochemistry, and some based on stress, life circumstance, environment, behavior and/or history. Suggesting that someone who is depressed should take tranquilizers misses the mark by several light years.

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So true, being bipolar type II, I often can't change how I feel, but I can change how I act and react because of how I feel and have worked hard to do so. And so true on how treatments differ, for example, anti-depressants are among the worst things someone with bipolar can take, and can actually make them sicker. There have been studies down however, that find that cognitive therapy actually can help a bipolar patient improve, whether they are on medicine or not, and I personally have found this to be true in my case.

lol, I was gonna stop talking about depression, especially after some of these ignorant comments I've read and received, but yours was just too good and insightful not to reply to. =)

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

That's not what I'm implying at all. You said that depression itself is a "natural human emotion" and that it is "not a bad thing". Let's clear something up here real quick. Depressed people are sad, but not all sad people are depressed. Clinical depression is not a natural thing. It is the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain which causes feelings of sadness and dejection often for no reason at all. It is also certainly not a good thing. Depression also tends to cause self-esteem issues. Many people that have depression feel as though they have no control over their own emotions. I can tell you from experience that being so angry you hit/break things or feeling so completely desolate that you can't even get out of bed in the morning are very scary things. Feeling the emotion (sadness) does not mean that you suffer from the rest of what the medical condition (depression) brings to the table.

Here's a nice collection of graphs to illustrate the difference.

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You are the only one who has used the term clinical depression. I certainly never used that phrase or addressed clinical depression at all, though I did mention I deal with bipolar depression myself, but that was not intended to address Clinical Depression. You are so intent on proving me wrong, that you're missing what I'm saying.

I suffer from Bipolar Type II depression, so why are you trying to educate me, when I already live with depression. I don't need you telling me what it's like or linking me graphs. (Though I have studied up extensively on Bipolar myself) I experience depression daily. I really don't think you have any clue how superior and condescending (not to mention ignorant) your attitude is coming across with this needless lecture, especially given that you're directing it towards someone who suffers from severe and debilitating depression and deals with it intimately, on a daily and hourly basis, as I do.

All those things you describe, those symptoms you listed, they're not just an idea or a concept to me, I actually live them. But because you seem to be on some kind of crusade to prove what depression really is, it appears to me that you never bothered to stop to see exactly who you were addressing your rebuttal to, the very type of person you're supposedly trying to defend with your aggressive comments. A person who deals daily with severe depression. Me. Good intentions or not, your actions seem to be misguided.

And if it works for me to think this way, and it does, then no, I am not wrong to think this way. For me it is a healthy approach and nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise. For me this is a valid coping method, period. Simple as that.