Yoshi P & The Dev team, the players have spoken and you should listen!

Whocareswhatmynameis: Also someone that understands it. I think maybe its because us legacy players on legacy servers wanted a more challenge and the newer generation maybe cant handle the old ways of grinding? I don't know just a theory :)

Touchandfeel: I will compare something for you here and I will compare it with FFXI. With every FFXI expansion that game out new endgame content was released that wasnt the same like before. Alexander is bretty much coil 2.0. I'm talking about stuff like Nyizle, Salvage, Dynamis, Sky, Sea, Limbus hell even abyssea and seekers of adoulin provided new endgame content that wasnt even close to alexander. If you are saying all of these endgame contents are like alexander and coil I can only say you are just naive.
ok i promise this is the final reply.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

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I think keeping old content relevant is a good thing. PvP ques have always been long and not well done (anyone who grinded that god bless you), the armor at this point has no purpose beyond vanity and you get the new armor (whatever you like it or not ) as a new reward for you grind ( not to mention multiple mounts and titles you get). The relics are only good to get to ilvl 90 for msq (which in its self is way easier now as it should be no one should have to grind old content to get to heavensward) and vanity. Getting the "Z" title still takes more than enough time that most people are not doing it. So I think they have the right amount of time since A. it is no longer relevant in current and B. only achiv/title hunters will go for it, making it still a fairly uncommon title. Overall if someone is complaining that someone got a vanity item with less grind, then I question why they did it in the first place. If you did not enjoy it why not let the devs make it less of a headache for the next player to grind out their ARR relic or old PvP armor?

Skizzle you do realize that A you have not even done the mid-tier raids and trails (all PF/DF doable)? And grind can be really excessive if over done, MMO's have also realized that players want to play the newest content and lose subs if the grind to get to the new content is too long (mainly talking about returning and new players). The overly grind quality of FF11 no longer sells well in the market and the people who liked that are by far a minority of the player base now. Relic is nice since it gives that minority and some of the more mid tier players a way to stay uptodate on gear since they have grind to deal with over playing in a static and having a good team to get good gear.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

2. 3.0 is a reskin of 2.0. ARR has been out for 2 years wich means you had 2 years to present something to the table that would make stuff interesting but we are still stuck in the DF envoirment.

3. Bigger maps and flying maps where amazing but not when the only thing we can do on big maps after quests is fate grinding hunts or gather and they are mega empty.

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I only agreed to this

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Touchandfeel: I will compare something for you here and I will compare it with FFXI. With every FFXI expansion that game out new endgame content was released that wasnt the same like before. Alexander is bretty much coil 2.0. I'm talking about stuff like Nyizle, Salvage, Dynamis, Sky, Sea, Limbus hell even abyssea and seekers of adoulin provided new endgame content that wasnt even close to alexander. If you are saying all of these endgame contents are like alexander and coil I can only say you are just naive.

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First off, I never said that. I stated that expecting a large revamp of a game on the release of an expansion is setting yourself up for disappointment. If you had more specifics to your statements, then perhaps you should have included them initially.

Resorting to insults and calling me naive because I disagree is uncalled for.

Some general advice, if you want things to change in a certain way, don't just spew out lists of complaints. Say what the problem is, why it is a problem, what you see as a solution and why it would address the initial problem. Be part of the solution.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

But I don't think it is selfish for people that spent a lot of time achieving something would like the challenge to remain the same.

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Oh but it is selfish, because they just don't want other people getting what they have already.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

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If hunts are any indication, open world content like Sky/Sea bringing in tons of crowds of people in and would be hectic for everyone and make more people quit. What do I know? I only played FFXI for 8 years and 2-3 other groups of people ruined your day easily.

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Originally Posted by Rafaelhades

Yeah! The devs better listen or else!

That put the fear of god in them!

Speaking of god, we should go make our own personal demands to our deity of choice while we're at it. They won't be gods for long if they don't meet our demands! This world is meant to fail if I don't get what I want.

Just sayin.

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no gods pls prayers create primals and primals we have enough to deal with as it is now =P

Touchandfeel: I apologize for that and I hope you can forgive me. I thought you where attacking me first thats why. Hope you can forgive me. We have stated the problems before in detail but the general gamers are not from FFXI so i dont think they get it.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Lucis tools were replaced by lvl 52 vendor gear, ect.

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Lucis crafter tools are equal to level 57 vendor tools (NQ). If you look at HQ crafted tools, it's only with level 55 HQ that the Lucis crafter tools get replaced.

Seems like OP just wants to play FFXI 3.0

New players need to be able to do things we did and keep old content relevant.
If it was just as time consuming for a relic weapon, which is a level 50 weapon when our cap is 60, then new players wouldn't even bother.

"Why grind for a weapon I'll out-level in an hour?"

If you really like XIV like you claim OP then you'd want it to be a game that lasts for years. Keeping old content an insane grind fest for little reward is not something that will keep the playerbase coming back. Not everyone wants to dedicate their lives to FFXI 3.0, so {No thanks.} I'll stick with how this game is going.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Whocareswhatmynameis: Also someone that understands it. I think maybe its because us legacy players on legacy servers wanted a more challenge and the newer generation maybe cant handle the old ways of grinding? I don't know just a theory :)

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I'm not sure how you can imply that you're so great cause you wanted more of a challenge when you haven't beaten Bismarck EX, Ravana EX, Alex Savage or Final Coil even. So you want more of a challenge but the things that are actually challenges are too challenging? I'm confused. A grind is not the same thing as a challenge.

FFXI wasn't challenging... FFXI was a grind but it wasn't very challenging. When you can kite Kirin for hours while cycling ranged damage into your alliance when they're ready, that's not really a challenge it's a war of attrition. Absolute Virtue was kind of challenge, I guess, if you consider an unbeatable boss which has a gimmick that no one can figure out to be a challenge. Dynamis Lord? Stun lock him until he dies while zerging so I suppose it was a challenge for your RDM to hit their Stun spell at the right time for 30 seconds. Relics? I guess it was a challenge to figure out how to swindle 40 other people into farming currency for you. NM/HNMs were a challenge of man vs. machine to see if you could provoke faster than a bot. Nyzul was challenging to get 6 people to hit their stupid lamps at the right time. Salvage was probably the most challenging thing in XI. Everything else was a simple task of "Did we beat it?" "No." "Throw more people at it." Don't get me wrong, I loved XI and played it for many many years but it just wasn't as challenging as you seem to think it was.

It's rather difficult to take your complaints about everything being too easy seriously when you haven't even attempted Final Coil, most of Second Coil, Bismarck and Ravana EX, and Alexander Normal, you know.

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Originally Posted by Dement

I'm not sure how you can imply that you're so great cause you wanted more of a challenge when you haven't beaten Bismarck EX, Ravana EX, Alex Savage or Final Coil even. So you want more of a challenge but the things that are actually challenges are too challenging? I'm confused. A grind is not the same thing as a challenge.

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Amen. Was thinking the exact same thing.

Horizontal progression...
One of those "things" that people don't really understand the meaning of.
They think it will let them become unique, when in reality they will need to go for what makes specific encounters the easiest to deal with, and will be excluded if they go for something else instead.
Any unique stat on a gear piece needs to be balanced by a negative or it won't be horizontal. The negatives will be seen as punishing players for obtaining gear with unique stats instead of being a necessary part of balancing to be horizontal.
More can be said against horizontal progression, but I think enough has been said already.

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Originally Posted by Dement

FFXI wasn't challenging... FFXI was a grind but it wasn't very challenging.

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Regardless it was way more challenging then most of the content in FFXIV.

FFXI Dynamis. You don't pull a group of mobs right or your black mages don't sleep properly? You wiped your whole alliance. Nyzul Isle, you got 30 minutes to clear the dungeon and complete the objectives, don't do that tough luck. You lose. Come back when you got more tokens.

FFXIV dungeons. Literally physical walls stopping you from progressing because if they weren't there you could prob pull the whole dungeon and Aoe them down.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Regardless it was way more challenging then most of the content in FFXIV.

FFXI Dynamis. You don't pull a group of mobs right or your black mages don't sleep properly? You wiped your whole alliance. Nyzul Isle, you got 30 minutes to clear the dungeon and complete the objectives, don't do that tough luck. You lose. Come back when you got more tokens.

FFXIV. Literally physical walls stopping you from progressing because if they weren't there you could prob pull the whole dungeon and Aoe them down.

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Wait tokens... sounds like a grind lock out to me. Are you telling me that you can ignore mechanics (since pulling and sleeping are part of doing mechanics) and do the content in FF14?

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Regardless it was way more challenging then most of the content in FFXIV.

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FFXI's challenge relied mostly on the RNG. FFXIV's challenge relies more on player skill. That's why FFXIV is easier and I prefer it that way.

Not to mention that important little detail that since FFXI was stuck at 75 for years, you couldn't outgear content as you can in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

FFXIV dungeons. Literally physical walls stopping you from progressing because if they weren't there you could prob pull the whole dungeon and Aoe them down.

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AoE them down only if you have specific party setups.
Except, going by dungeons that didn't have any such blocks, tanks didn't give a damn and pulled everything regardless of if party was of a composition that may be able to do it, then lots of griefing because it ends in a wipe.
You can blame the immaturity of the players for these blocks.

There used to not be lock/gates/doors in dungeons to pace out the fights. Tanks would run ahead and agro everything and the grp would follow behind as to not agro anything then the tank would go off to the side in the boss room and die and let the mobs reset. No mob killing at all let alone aoe.

I wonder if the people with their witty responses actually like the generic stat itemization, the lack of innovation to the progression system or the mediocre amount of endgame (Quality > Quantity, of course, Savage is savage, but we still need more, imo)

I for one would love stats that don't bore me to tears and that are actually EXCITING.

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Originally Posted by Yagrush

I for one would love stats that don't bore me to tears and that are actually EXCITING.

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Would you mind giving some examples?

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

FFXIV dungeons. Literally physical walls stopping you from progressing because if they weren't there you could prob pull the whole dungeon and Aoe them down.

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Oh, you mean like a FFXI manaburn?

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Would you mind giving some examples?

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Job specific materia to enhance your abilities.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Would you mind giving some examples?

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Job specific stats is the most common example. One of the few things I would take out of WoW is the Mastery stat, which I think is a pretty good and controlled way to improve players based on their class and not just their generic stats.

Say you pick 2 job specific stats for each job and start implementing it into gear, giving a very rich angle we don't have at the moment for itemization. I'm just throwing ideas out there, but let's say Ninjutsu for Ninjas, which improves the effectiveness of all the ninjutsu abilities by a certain percentage. Or you could go with much more specific things, like giving sets of armor proc abilities or enhancing specific abilities (Fell Cleave + 1, anyone, prz?). But, naturally, it would be much harder to balance, which is why I would go with the first idea of picking a controlled job-specific stat for everyone and start implementing it into Weapons and armor.

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Originally Posted by Yagrush

I wonder if the people with their witty responses actually like the generic stat itemization, the lack of innovation to the progression system or the mediocre amount of endgame (Quality > Quantity, of course, Savage is savage, but we still need more, imo)

I for one would love stats that don't bore me to tears and that are actually EXCITING.

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it has more to do with the fact that OP seems to be under the delusion that he speaks for every single player in the game rather than what he says if you ask me

for the stat itemization, yes i would love to have a bit more, and heck YoshiP said multiple times they wonna do it BUT if they do it PF a**holes will ask for you to have a specific bonus, ppl will get kicked from pts, laughed at for not having it...its bad enough now with only the ilvl lol

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Originally Posted by Erepio

it has more to do with the fact that OP seems to be under the delusion that he speaks for every single player in the game rather than what he says if you ask me

for the stat itemization, yes i would love to have a bit more, and heck YoshiP said multiple times they wonna do it BUT if they do it PF a**holes will ask for you to have a specific bonus, ppl will get kicked from pts, laughed at for not having it...its bad enough now with only the ilvl lol

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Frankly I don't think that will be a problem. There's already a certain stat heirachy for each job (Some clearers than others), so situations like that could happen but aren't too common. People usually just quit without saying anything, anyways :P Sure, with richer itemization there will be more situations of people not building optimally, but that's just part of an MMO, imo.

I only see issues of the kicking people if SE introduces armors with set bonuses that are so impactful that people won't want to bother with people that don't have it. But if they managed to goof up and introduce a set bonus that does something like that, it would be more of a fault in implementation, rather than in concept.

Then again, I prefer more the idea of job stats than set bonuses, it would be a bit simpler to balance, I feel.

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Originally Posted by Yagrush

I for one would love stats that don't bore me to tears and that are actually EXCITING.

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*shrug*

Never understood this "exciting stat" thing. There's always a BiS, it doesn't really matter what each stat does.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

*shrug*

Never understood this "exciting stat" thing. There's always a BiS, it doesn't really matter what each stat does.

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Numbers are numbers. They could just as well only give us one stat, and only have the BiS gear to choose and be on our way. But that wouldn't fly. Why? The *illusion* of choice, believe it or not, is also important. You could argue, though, that the choice is real, and that some people prefer one gear over the other, depending on the context.

There are people who could argue with you that DET > CRIT, or that CRIT > DET, for example. Things like that spark customized itemization, which makes it interesting. Job Stats would only add to the experience, I feel.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

1. Stop continuing to punish us for devoting time to this game and have it as a hobby. Examples, relic quests and certain gears. Letting people have the same stuff as others for half the effort isnt fair to anyone.

2. 3.0 is a reskin of 2.0. ARR has been out for 2 years wich means you had 2 years to present something to the table that would make stuff interesting but we are still stuck in the DF envoirment.

3. Bigger maps and flying maps where amazing but not when the only thing we can do on big maps after quests is fate grinding hunts or gather and they are mega empty.

4. Gears with more job specific stats wouldnt be a bad idea. -10% damage taken or 10% damage dealt etc.

5. Whats the real reason for everything beeing so easy? Who is it going to satisfy? Presenting savage isnt doing the hardcore gamers a favour its devaluing the players overall when it comes to everything else from regular mobs dungeons etc.

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XD THIS IS AWESOME

The problem right now is that the developers seem overly concerned about keeping people grinding tokens at end game, instead of just letting them get the items and move on to do other things like leveling crafts, doing older dungeons, and other things. The end game represents such a small slice of content and people are being forced to spend way too much time on that slice instead of making use of all the other good systems. That is, unless they completely ignore the end game shinanigans, which is kind of hard.

They need to relax and put more time into the crafting and gathering, build a better hunt / fate system, and other content that everyone can enjoy and not just this highly selective super hard group content. Especially given the problems with player filtering as time goes on.

i don't agree with this

OP, I never gave you my vote. Hush you.

Wait, I missed a playerbase meeting? When was this? Can I see the minutes for this meeting?

Wait... did I miss donuts...? D:

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Originally Posted by Colt47

They need to relax and put more time into the crafting and gathering, build a better hunt / fate system, and other content that everyone can enjoy and not just this highly selective super hard group content. Especially given the problems with player filtering as time goes on.

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Crafting and Gathering has been turning slowly into hardcore content during the 2.0 series and got a major push in that direction with Heavensward. Crafting and Gathering hasn't been something that everyone can enjoy for a very long time now and I hate it.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

How is it hardcore? Anyone can craft, all you do is a 1 min quest in one of the starter towns and you can start crafting. I'm really curious as to why you think people are not able to participate in crafting and gathering.

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Leveling DoW and DoM is also easy, yet we can all agree that they have hardcore content too.

The problem is that once you got to 50, and unlike DoW and DoM, the majority of new gathering spots and recipees (2 star and up) required you to grind gil to overmeld your items. This issue has been exarcerbated in Heavensward with recipees for items in the 50-60 range requiring a lot more items and items from hidden and unspoiled nodes. People that want to gather their own mats now need a lot more time to do it.

Anyone can craft, that's true. But once you get to 60, any items that you want to craft are locked behind a gil grindwall.

DoH and DoL should be a side activity to support your battle classes, which is how they were when ARR was released. Now they're a second job instead of being fun.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Would you mind giving some examples?

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Enochian +
Swiftcast +
Astral Fire +
Umbral Ice +
Jump +
Aetherflow +
Galvanize +
Unchained +

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

*shrug*

Never understood this "exciting stat" thing. There's always a BiS, it doesn't really matter what each stat does.

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maybe but if you don't have the Astral Fire +2 Gloves to go along with the Astral Fire +3 Hat, you can't fit an extra Fire IV in your rotation so you might as well just use the Enochian +5 gloves instead.

maybe some fights the SCH really wants the Galvanize +3 Succors but other fights like expert dungeons where it doesn't matter they want the Aetherflow +5 so they can Energy Drain more often just for DPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Crafting and Gathering has been turning slowly into hardcore content during the 2.0 series and got a major push in that direction with Heavensward. Crafting and Gathering hasn't been something that everyone can enjoy for a very long time now and I hate it.

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How is it hardcore? Anyone can craft, all you do is a 1 min quest in one of the starter towns and you can start crafting. I'm really curious as to why you think people are not able to participate in crafting and gathering.

I also want to cast my vote in opposition to the OP who absolutely doesn't speak for everyone or even most of the players.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Crafting and Gathering has been turning slowly into hardcore content during the 2.0 series and got a major push in that direction with Heavensward. Crafting and Gathering hasn't been something that everyone can enjoy for a very long time now and I hate it.

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Yeah, I've sort of noticed this myself. That is why I said they need to put more time into crafting and gathering. The reason it is hardcore is because they aren't coming up with anything better to do with it.

its a reskin but i think they are dyable. other things to do on maps treasure hunt or hunt ranked monsters

disagree with everything but number 4.

shush, op.

While we're demanding things...

I would like my manly buns to stand out more in my outfit. Please give the male Roe more booty. Mine doesn't quite fill out this...thing.

BTW, don't listen to OP. He's blind and delusional.