Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

I really love that FFIX inspired gaining of skills and traits by spirit bonding gear. That sounds absolutely beautiful. Thank you :}

I agree with the OP that the system available in FFXIV needs to offer at least some choice in specialization for each job. Right now World of Warcraft actually beats this game hands down in their class system because even though you can't play every job on a single character, each "job" offers three different play styles within that job and players can freely switch between two of those styles. This allows for hybrid classes to actually fill two different roles, damage dealers can experiment with different kinds of play, etc. Heck, even though we can play every class on the same character in FFXIV, it's really no different from starting a new character in WoW and leveling that character up, only they have a seperate inventory so they don't run into the issues we have with the FFXIV inventory.

I mean, we could have Dark knights that could be a DPS or a Tank if we used that idea of offering multiple paths. Or a Bard that could specialize in healing or be a sniping savant.

*brings elemental wheel back*
*watches black mages flail about trying to do big damage to Ifrit with low potency Blizzard spells*

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I agree with the OP that the system available in FFXIV needs to offer at least some choice in specialization for each job. Right now World of Warcraft actually beats this game hands down in their class system because even though you can't play every job on a single character, each "job" offers three different play styles within that job and players can freely switch between two of those styles. This allows for hybrid classes to actually fill two different roles, damage dealers can experiment with different kinds of play, etc. Heck, even though we can play every class on the same character in FFXIV, it's really no different from starting a new character in WoW and leveling that character up, only they have a seperate inventory so they don't run into the issues we have with the FFXIV inventory.

I mean, we could have Dark knights that could be a DPS or a Tank if we used that idea of offering multiple paths. Or a Bard that could specialize in healing or be a sniping savant.

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And what about BLM? Give them healing? I don't think it works well for all classes.

I also wouldn't list WoW as a great system. Specs are as restrictive as Jobs in many ways and WoW has always had serious struggles with balancing its classes.

Your basically asking for a system like Jobs but with less themes.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

*brings elemental wheel back*
*watches black mages flail about trying to do big damage to Ifrit with low potency Blizzard spells*

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I wish I could be either a Ice Mage or a Fire Mage....hell or even Lightning or something.
I honestly like the ice element better than fire. :/ I wish they could give us a choice but both be equal.
The game kinda sucks with the 'one way street' type of deal. Literally everyone is the same person.

EDIT: They could of made a more supportive bard, and a DPS bard.
A MCH that relies on Turrets more, or a MCH that relies on his own gun more.
Holy Paladin? Dark Paladin? [Well we have DRK...] Uhh...WHM that focuses on more Water based healing or a WHM that uses more Wind based healing?
Dragoon focused on Lance skills and a Dragon that uses Wyvern pet things? Idk lol.
It'll be nice to have more stuff. I'm not sure if I'm with the topic right though.

You want "class" customization? You have to detach it from raiding. There will be no customization so long as "classes" are tied to the limitations imposed by raid balance.

One solution I can think of (and I have posted it before) is to,

1. Make raids Job-only. They practically already are so no change there.
2. Release skill books that teach class-only cross-class skills - they may or may not be restricted to specific classes.

Problem solved.

Jobs can be designed specifically for raids - with all the accompanying restrictions. Classes can be used by those that desire customization in dungeons and open world content. (Seriously, who gives a rat's bottom about balance in those areas?)

With the class-only cross-class skills, the sky's the limit as you don't have worry about "raid balance". Class-only cross-class skill A is OPed? Great, the dungeon gets completed quicker. Want big old school appear-attack-disappear summons? Sure. No one is going to QQ about a big summon blocking their view in a FATE or Rank S/A Hunt.

Ok what I hear a lot is: "Everyone will just pick the optimal build."

That's just not true. If it were, then why are we all not playing the optimal dps, tank, or healer jobs?
Because we all don't enjoy playing the mathematically solved "best" job. Build choice wouldn't be any different.

If we don't like choice so much, then why isn't there just three jobs; one for every role so we're all equal? Why don't they just start us all in BIS gear so no one gets bullied and we can all clear content more reliably? Sounds fun to you?

Where WoW has 3 builds (sometimes 4) per class XIV makes up for that with the amount of classes. Instead of picking a spec we pick an entire class, as the typical FF formula goes.

The skill differences in current games are not that good of examples for big change. Wow each class has three builds (more like three different classes). Within those the only thing that really gets changed is if you are pvping or pveing (we have a system for that already). The whole 1% this 1% that over the top skill three will not change the class that much and overall you are still playing with the same package of skills (if i am still playing the class i like why would someone play an suboptimal build?). These systems are flawed and would not be a welcome addition to the game. The classes are not the same in how their kits work, for example DRG is the "best" dps, but monks can pull similar dps. DRGs have two three set combos with BoTD up have a random proced 4th skill and have their oGCD attack skills buffed for the most part. It has 4 positionals and the buff skills are similar to monk as well as the fact that they both are melee dps. Monk stacks GL with an interchangeable 3 style combo with 8 skills that can be used all but two (aoes) with postionals. Very different classes, while with I can just change "x" skill for y or z, when z gives better dps and you still play the same kit (nothing changes enough to matter). Why would you chose y? That is what people mean by people will pick optimal build, since most skill trees do not offer enough change to he class. When they could change the class enough, why not just make a new class instead?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

And what about BLM? Give them healing? I don't think it works well for all classes.

I also wouldn't list WoW as a great system. Specs are as restrictive as Jobs in many ways and WoW has always had serious struggles with balancing its classes.

Your basically asking for a system like Jobs but with less themes.

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Blm doesn't need anything other than being blm. The only choice they'd make is between doing more strait up damage as they do now or focusing more on DoT and gaining mobility.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

All the "weak" arguments are major faults in skill trees.
It will always boil down to the most optimal builds and class which Yoshi-P doesn't want.

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This, it just makes the game harder to balance overall because in essence this is what you do.

We have 3 tanks, 3 healers and 7 DPS jobs.

With that each one has one way of playing no variables so content is based on how 13 jobs play.

Add specialization and you amplify it based on options, give each class 10 option now you have 130 variables to keep in mind rather than 13, wherein you could make contnet that is easy for one setup but impossible for another and then what, all you do is have people continuously resetting their skills to always be the most optimal. To create content around an open ended skill system just makes it harder to create an engaging and challenging PVE experience.

You kinda gotta think of it like this, in chess do you get to choose what pieces you want to start with? Why not wouldn't it give you more options, allow you to do more, to optimize how best to play. The reason for the limitations is because you learn to work with what you got, each ability is a chess piece and it's using those abilities to the best of their effect that makes you more effective. It's that mentality that allows for challenging content like Savage mode and primal extremes to be made because the creators can base the content around the constants of the jobs and not have to consider the variables that each job "could" have.

You can look at every game that has a talent system and it always will boil down to the optimal specs. Wow tried to rid themselves of this plague, but they still could not.

Part of the reason why WoW, Rift, etc. games offer those variation specs is because you can only play one class per character. The only way to play other classes is to create a new character entirely and start from scratch. And no, not everyone is an alt-o-holic, so a solution had to be made so that they weren't stuck doing the exact same thing over and over again. Thus specs were born to help give variety. Even in GW2 with all of it's variety, you're still the same class you picked from character creation.

But in FF14 we have the freedom to be any class/job at any one time. We can cross-class skills into our builds. It's far from perfect but this is a lot more "free" compared to spec games because I can actually play other roles and experiment without starting over again in story and exploration. We need more customization, yes, but it needs to work with the system we have. Traditional skill trees aren't going to do it. Picking between 3 specs for 13 different classes and planning gear for all of them doesn't sound fun to me.

But that's also just me.

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

Ok what I hear a lot is: "Everyone will just pick the optimal build."

That's just not true. If it were, then why are we all not playing the optimal dps, tank, or healer jobs?
Because we all don't enjoy playing the mathematically solved "best" job. Build choice wouldn't be any different.

If we don't like choice so much, then why isn't there just three jobs; one for every role so we're all equal? Why don't they just start us all in BIS gear so no one gets bullied and we can all clear content more reliably? Sounds fun to you?

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People do this already. It's called group composition. Most cutting edge groups are actually foregoing AST because their healing output isn't quite up to snuff, nor do their card buffs really make up for it. Most groups go for a 2 melee, 2 ranged setup because it's the most optimal.

Why don't groups take 4 DRGs when they're arguably the highest dps? Why not four bards when they technically have the best damage uptime?

I get that optional build argument but they could make the talents so good that there would be atleast 2 optional builds. Then there would still be a chance of some choice. There are a few MMOs that have around 3 - 4 viable builds for every class and you just have to chose your playstyle. I think it could work here too, they would just to have to put a lot of effort into the talent system and not make half of the talents just fillers that no one will chose.

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

Ok what I hear a lot is: "Everyone will just pick the optimal build."

That's just not true. If it were, then why are we all not playing the optimal dps, tank, or healer jobs

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Because any differences between jobs are not so great that you're boned for having a team of, let's say 2 DRKs, 2 WHMs, and 4 BRDs.

It is true that people will gravitate towards the best set up in regards to end game content. When I played PAYDAY 2, a game that brags about letting customize how you want your skills to be, none of that mattered when it came to Death Wish difficulty; everyone went for dodge based builds because those let you survive longer than using heavy armor. Playing with armor made you a liability and even if you could pull your own weight, no one wanted to take a risk because the difficulty level didn't allow any room for experimentation. That's what would happen in this game's raids; go with what the crowd wants you to be or get out.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I get that optional build argument but they could make the talents so good that there would be atleast 2 optional builds. Then there would still be a chance of some choice. There are a few MMOs that have around 3 - 4 viable builds for every class and you just have to chose your playstyle. I think it could work here too, they would just to have to put a lot of effort into the talent system and not make half of the talents just fillers that no one will chose.

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People are mainly looking at track records with skill trees, most of the 3-4 builds is created more because you are locked into one class and the game is designed to play one class. Which gives you options within the class (and in many ways/times vastly changes how the class plays), FF14 is set up to have multiple classes at max level and lets say you are not feeling bard today you could play WHM and heal or play BLM to play magic dps, etc.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

*brings elemental wheel back*
*watches black mages flail about trying to do big damage to Ifrit with low potency Blizzard spells*

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Try it with wind
Fire is strong against ice


fire -> ice -> wind -> fire
water -> earth -> lightning -> water

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Originally Posted by Felis

Try it with wind
Fire is strong against ice

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So what you are telling me is bring 4 blms with me to fight shiva?

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

So what you are telling me is bring 4 blms with me to fight shiva?

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or 4 MNK if Fist of Fire give the attacks fire damage again like it was during 1.x (with steady mp cost while the skill is active and int increase the fire damage)

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Originally Posted by Felis

or 4 MNK if Fist of Fire give the attacks fire damage again like it was during 1.x (with steady mp cost while the skill is active and int increase the fire damage)

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ohh I like monk sounds good to me (but imagine if they just turned on all the element stuff with the current game right now. All the forum rage.... kinda want to see it now just for the rage)

Can we just not. It has never worked in another mmo that required fine tuned teamwork. It works in crap like diablo because it's not really a team game. You can play how you want because it doesn't affect anyone else.

The balance is always crap. The more different the options are the exponentially harder it becomes to balance. No one wants to be benched because they aren't the current top patch job.

Find me one game requiring fine tuned coordinated group gameplay that featured a lot of classes (like 10+), with a large number of viable trees that didn't get boiled down to the cookie cutter and maybe a situational varient. Bonus points if it's not a class per character system.

it has NEVER worked. This customization junk is pie on the sky dreams. It doesn't work. It's been tried over and over year after year. And it flops every time. The reasons are well documented at this point.

But sure, let's ignore all that and flush another good game down the snowflake drain.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

All the "weak" arguments are major faults in skill trees.
It will always boil down to the most optimal builds and class which Yoshi-P doesn't want.

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Final Fantasy XI had unique merit abilities and traits you could 'buy' with points. It was a system that worked very well and because of the way the skills were designed there was no such thing as an 'optimal' build. There were some skills which were considered less beneficial, but usually it's more the case that you're choosing one awesome skill over another awesome skill in the same category.

You also had to level up each individual skill, so the more points you put into one skill the more powerful it would become but the fewer points you would have to spend on other skills. This 'optimal build' argument only has legs if they design the bonus skills poorly. A carefully constructed customization system doesn't suffer from this.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Final Fantasy XI had unique merit abilities and traits you could 'buy' with points. It was a system that worked very well and because of the way the skills were designed there was no such thing as an 'optimal' build. There were some skills which were considered less beneficial, but usually it's more the case that you're choosing one awesome skill over another awesome skill in the same category.

You also had to level up each individual skill, so the more points you put into one skill the more powerful it would become but the fewer points you would have to spend on other skills. This 'optimal build' argument only has legs if they design the bonus skills poorly. A carefully constructed customization system doesn't suffer from this.

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If you are serious....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!

Final Fantasy XI? One of the most imbalanced mmos out there. If you didn't play a certain way for your job, you would be kicked from even exp parties.
"Oh your SMN without healing abilities? KICK!" "LF NIN tank only!" Do these sound familiar?

Or maybe remembering having to switch builds to whatever was in atm for the current expansion?

Please except the reality that if we were given the choice in character customization, there will be an optimal build for each class/job and, if you do not use it, no endgame group will take you. That's just how mmos work.

It's not like I'm dismissing your opinion, but there will always be better and lesser builds.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Can we just not. It has never worked in another mmo that required fine tuned teamwork. It works in crap like diablo because it's not really a team game. You can play how you want because it doesn't affect anyone else.

The balance is always crap. The more different the options are the exponentially harder it becomes to balance. No one wants to be benched because they aren't the current top patch job.

Find me one game requiring fine tuned coordinated group gameplay that featured a lot of classes (like 10+), with a large number of viable trees that didn't get boiled down to the cookie cutter and maybe a situational varient. Bonus points if it's not a class per character system.

it has NEVER worked. This customization junk is pie on the sky dreams. It doesn't work. It's been tried over and over year after year. And it flops every time. The reasons are well documented at this point.

But sure, let's ignore all that and flush another good game down the snowflake drain.

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Again, allow customization of Classes and don't allow them in raids.

"Fine tuned teamwork" is not the whole game you know. I don't see why the whole game has to be designed around the needs of raiders.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Final Fantasy XI had unique merit abilities and traits you could 'buy' with points. It was a system that worked very well and because of the way the skills were designed there was no such thing as an 'optimal' build. There were some skills which were considered less beneficial, but usually it's more the case that you're choosing one awesome skill over another awesome skill in the same category.

You also had to level up each individual skill, so the more points you put into one skill the more powerful it would become but the fewer points you would have to spend on other skills. This 'optimal build' argument only has legs if they design the bonus skills poorly. A carefully constructed customization system doesn't suffer from this.

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Never played FF11 but the only way there was never an optimal build is if every single person never did numbers and found out which is the best.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of seeing suggestions like "implement this feature from 11". This is not Final Fantasy 11, it's Final Fantasy 14.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Again, allow customization of Classes and don't allow them in raids.

"Fine tuned teamwork" is not the whole game you know.

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...it's a party-based MMO. Sorry, but yes, "fine tuned teamwork" is supposed to be the whole game. Or at least part of the combat aspect of the game.

Also we already have this in being able to play any job at any time. If they're so similar as people keep saying then why do you insist on differentiating the class you already play? The only class/jobs that don't have much choice in variation are the bards and machinists. Everyone else gets variations on basic play points simply by switching a weapon. It encourages people to try new roles. Specs seem more like an excuse to just continue playing one class and one class only. Which yeah, people will do anyway, but you made that choice.

"People will only pick the optimal" is completely untrue. If that was so, why do games like Diablo even exist? People like choice. Just because a few elitist blowhards will try to force people into builds doesn't mean everyone will... Just look at extreme primals, and other end game content, you see DPS classes being out damaged by tanks, and they barely ever get called out about it. You wouldn't even have to worry about an optimal build outside of a raid group.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

...it's a party-based MMO. Sorry, but yes, "fine tuned teamwork" is supposed to be the whole game. Or at least part of the combat aspect of the game.

Also we already have this in being able to play any job at any time. If they're so similar as people keep saying then why do you insist on differentiating the class you already play? The only class/jobs that don't have much choice in variation are the bards and machinists. Everyone else gets variations on basic play points simply by switching a weapon. It encourages people to try new roles. Specs seem more like an excuse to just continue playing one class and one class only. Which yeah, people will do anyway, but you made that choice.

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Bullcrap.

WoW style raids - where the whole group is punished for the failings of a few leading to exclusionary and toxic behavior - aren't the only type of group content possible.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Bullcrap.

WoW style raids - where the whole group is punished for the failings of a few leading to exclusionary and toxic behavior - aren't the only type of group content possible.

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No, it isn't. However, mmos are usually balanced with accordance to the hardest current content i.e. raids. Everything else is practically built around that.

We're trapped in this predicament of wanting for balance and wanting for customization.

In my opinion, balance means that all jobs can have access to all content with the same chance of success. SE made this possible as the central of this game by limiting our choices in customizing our jobs. The most that we can get are cross-class skills that are already phased out in 3.0. That's why you don't see cross-class skills from either DRK or AST or MCH.

Customization destroys this harmony by putting in choices for players. I'm not against it, I'm just explaining the impact of this system. You put in choices, if SE still sticks to their core value, which is all content passable by all, they have to consider the extreme ends of choices. If you give a PLD the choice to be a DPS, there has to a room in all 8 men content to put in a PLD DPS and STILL have the same chance of success. This is how to preserve balance and that requires for you to take a look at lots of other combination of teams.

Can a team take a MNK, and then replace it with a PLD DPS, will they still have the same chance of success? This is why PLD right now is being discriminated from static groups because their extra defensive capabilities do not make the DPS checks bearable. Thus, balance is destroyed and SE do not stick with their main core value.

Customization on paper is great. It sounds awesome, you can have any kinds of playstyle and attracts players to experiment around. But the game is centered and balanced around the raids, Coils, Alexander Savage and so on. If one playstyle cannot make through the content, then people will not choose the class and therefore balance is destroyed. This is the dilemma we're in.

SE wants to have any combination of teams to have equal chance of success.

But I digress.

Job personalization sounds GREAT. It does, yes. But it has to be implemented across the board while abolishing DEPENDENCIES among classes and jobs. A PLD should be able to be swapped with a WAR with little to no impact on success rate. A NIN can easily be replaced by DRG and still has the same utility. A BRD and a MCH can easibly be exchanged with no compromise on their regeneration spells. By putting in variations of each class such as a PLD DPS, can a PLD DPS replace a DRG or NIN or a MNK? If it can, yes go ahead the idea works but if it cannot? The whole thing crashes down and we're all back on square one.

SE multiple times have said that they want all jobs and classes able to complete content. Customization may be possible if we keep them inside a restriction. Tanks have to act as tanks and get customizations accordingly. I support role customization instead of job customization. Give customization to traits and effects to skills and spells but they have to be able to have the same impact as the other customization on other class. We do not want a trait customization tree that gives WAR a higher advantage over the same trait customization tree on a PLD.

See the huge problem here? Discrimination. It's already happening with PLD, AST and the rangers. We all want the same damage, same defense, same things but we want customization as well that gives variations on those things too.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Bullcrap.

WoW style raids - where the whole group is punished for the failings of a few leading to exclusionary and toxic behavior - aren't the only type of group content possible.

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The exact same thing is happening in DF by people not wanting to help the team by playing their role properly. To the point where even MSQ dungeons can't be cleared because of "I'll play how I want to play". Jerks exist at all levels, not just raids.


What does adding a spec to a class you already play really change in terms of customization other than control of numbers? The specs in WoW and other games really don't change how a class plays at a basic level. "I want an ice BLM or a thunder BLM" (for example). Okay...the ice spells would probably still induce slow and heavy and given the trend thunder spells would still be dots. So if you specialized in say thunder, you'd be specializing in dots. Oh wait, SMN already specializes in dots, so that spec is more "samey" to another job than BLM as it is now.

That's more what I'm getting at. What radical spec choices would you implement for classes that would keep their core gameplay but would actually be worth the time to insert the change?

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Originally Posted by elemental10

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^This post x100000%

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

The exact same thing is happening in DF by people not wanting to help the team by playing their role properly. To the point where even MSQ dungeons can't be cleared because of "I'll play how I want to play". Jerks exist at all levels, not just raids.

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Not quite my point ...

My point instead was, group content where everyone has to be an obedient little sheep and do it a specific way or everyone will suffer, isn't the only type of group content.

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What does adding a spec to a class you already play really change in terms of customization other than control of numbers? The specs in WoW and other games really don't change how a class plays at a basic level. "I want an ice BLM or a thunder BLM" (for example). Okay...the ice spells would probably still induce slow and heavy and given the trend thunder spells would still be dots. So if you specialized in say thunder, you'd be specializing in dots. Oh wait, SMN already specializes in dots, so that spec is more "samey" to another job than BLM as it is now.

That's more what I'm getting at. What radical spec choices would you implement for classes that would keep their core gameplay but would actually be worth the time to insert the change?

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It's not about adding "specs", it's about letting you pick and choose what abilities you want.

For example, if you don't like a mechanic say ... Enochian ... perhaps you can use some other alternative mechanic instead and reach roughly the same result. Perhaps said alternative mechanic has lower damage but has a crowd control component so the mob dies before you do all the same.

Such alternative mechanics will never exist so long as the game is designed around raiding. All mechanics will have to be tightly balanced and SE doesn't have time to balance so many things.

If tight balance isn't an issue ... the sky is the limit really.

They can implement cool new ability for Class A without worrying if that would make said class OPed and resulting in a sea of tears from raiders.

All the banality of the game is due to need to keep things ultra-balanced (thus boring).

Which brings me to my earlier post,

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3217176

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

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Doesn't matter if that first bit wasn't your point. It's the exact same mentality just on the other side of the coin. "You will all have to change your play style and adapt to me just because I don't want to play my role the way it was designed." How is that any different from expecting people to play the way your raid group wants you to? You become the person trying to herd sheep with that mentality. The only way to truly avoid that drama is to do group content with friends only. Speaking of...

Raiding's not for everybody. I know I don't raid because I don't like how strict it is. But MMOs, like it or not, need raiders to drive game development. They can't sustain a game by themselves, but they're the ones who complete content quickly and challenge the devs to make quality content faster. Games without raiding stagnate due to slow, if any, updates. Games that focus too much on raiding exclude too many people.

As for the actions thing, what good does adding another crowd control ability to a BLM toolkit where every other spell/attribute is already an AoE or assists in AoE? That's no different than adding a redundant spec. Every single skill that gets added needs to have a purpose and shouldn't be there just because someone wants choice. And we already have this with cross class skills. You can literally take off our soul stone and cross class just about any skill from any of the other classes to use. Play other classes and look at what skills can cross with yours to give a unique style. People are already doing it with their own groups and are having a good time.

"Implementing that cool new ability for Class A without worrying if that would make said class OPed" is called balancing. You're literally using what you claim to be the cause of this game being boring as your argument for why more skills could be added. And again, you're not suggesting anything new. We've got new skills, and people are chosing whether or not they wish to use them. Raiders will, obviously. But plenty of people are rebelling and aren't. That's their personal choice. Party with people that agree with those choices because there's plenty there.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Doesn't matter if that first bit wasn't your point. It's the exact same mentality just on the other side of the coin. "You will all have to change your play style and adapt to me just because I don't want to play my role the way it was designed." How is that any different from expecting people to play the way your raid group wants you to? You become the person trying to herd sheep with that mentality. The only way to truly avoid that drama is to do group content with friends only. Speaking of...

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You didn't read the linked post did you.

I'm more than happy to let raiders raids (and tear into each other mercilessly).

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Raiding's not for everybody. I know I don't raid because I don't like how strict it is. But MMOs, like it or not, need raiders to drive game development. They can't sustain a game by themselves, but they're the ones who complete content quickly and challenge the devs to make quality content faster. Games without raiding stagnate due to slow, if any, updates. Games that focus too much on raiding exclude too many people.

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Citation needed.

Developers need raiders to challenge them? LOL.

Keep the attention of the majority casuals is more than enough challenge.

WoW just dropped to 5.6 million. A primarily raid focus game will no longer cut it. SE should take WoW's slow demise as a warning.

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You're literally using what you claim to be the cause of this game being boring as your argument for why more skills could be added.

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What?

Anyway my point is, the way raid balance constricts class design is the reason the game isn't as interesting as it could be. A lot can not be done because it would upset the precious "raid balance".

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Originally Posted by Kelg

"People will only pick the optimal" is completely untrue. If that was so, why do games like Diablo even exist?

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How much do you play D3? Because it is a game very much about using what is the most optimal. Of course everything is achievable solo so you can use sub optimal builds without affecting others, it is a completely different genre to FFXIV and is a terrible comparison. MMO content is entrenched in team play, most of the content outside of leveling requires you to play with other people, and other people want you to use what is most optimal. You may notice how many posts are made about people being bad at DPS latley, and thats just a result about not using skills in the best order. If there is an Optimal way to play, and the game requires team play people will always use whats most optimal.

My 2 cents on this topic: Elder Scrolls Online tried this and failed hard. Sure leveling up is extremely fun. The quests are awesome and the customization you get is really nice. Once you hit veteran rank levels though your playstyle choices become severely limited. By that I don't mean the actual number of choices drop, but the number of effective choices drop significantly. If you don't play one of only a few accepted ways at end game you just won't get groups. Its why I don't play that MMO anymore.

FF14 is awesome the way it is. Don't change it anywhere near how the OP suggests.

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Originally Posted by Leshpar

My 2 cents on this topic: Elder Scrolls Online tried this and failed hard. Sure leveling up is extremely fun. The quests are awesome and the customization you get is really nice. Once you hit veteran rank levels though your playstyle choices become severely limited. By that I don't mean the actual number of choices drop, but the number of effective choices drop significantly. If you don't play one of only a few accepted ways at end game you just won't get groups. Its why I don't play that MMO anymore.

FF14 is awesome the way it is. Don't change it anywhere near how the OP suggests.

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Again, it depends on the content. If the only worthwhile content is of the "punish the whole group for the failings of a few" variety ... ya, choice is non-existence. You will have to play how others want you to play. Personal choice cease to exist.

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

This counts as argument number 1:“Choice is an Illusion.” Which my counter argument is:All of those players would chose to look up a premade optimal build to enhance their experience, effectively giving them but one choice. Nothing would change for them except the fact that they have made a decision. This is more of a hardcore player issue, but already we have no choice. What this does is let people who aren't hardcore have a choice.

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Giving people the choice to be mediocre is no choice at all. We'd go back to the scenario of Souleater Recast merits vs Arcane Circle Recast merits. One is actually useful, the other one is a waste of code. All you'd be doing is inviting the type of problems that are known to work with "specs" (people getting ridiculed for not going the optimal route). This is why I'd push customization in the direction of aesthetics rather than gameplay. There's plenty of ways to do it without creating even bigger problems among the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Mwynn

I would be happy to have a Spell Speed Mage with the Ability to have enough Movement or a Heavy Damage Dealing Mage with slowed Movement. *Does look at Nexus System from FFXIII*

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Except the one that deals most damage will rule over the other.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

I wish I could be either a Ice Mage or a Fire Mage....hell or even Lightning or something.
I honestly like the ice element better than fire. :/ I wish they could give us a choice but both be equal.

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I'd go for somehow swapping particle effects and spell names around over changing BLM at the baseline. Granted, the job is built around it using all its elements.

XI tried what you're asking with elemental affinity merits, but that quickly became "spec into lightning or ice or GTFO".