Anyone else feel like DRK is a bit lacking in PvP?

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Originally Posted by Houston009

PvP isn't only about the damage you can do. Utility is just as important.

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Miss you dude!

Haha, miss you too. I'll pvp a lot more once the raid is done.

Maybe I'm playing wrong, but I actually find Drk to be better than PLD.
As a PLD, I run around stun locking people and throwing up debuffs with full swing. Skill speed/attack power are WAY too low to do much dmg, so, I usually just eat their stoneskin with spirits within and let the angry mob that's following me do the rest.
As Drk I feel like I can actually be more help. Drop salted earth on nodes. Pop Blood weapon when dealing dmg to lone targets. Pop blood price when charging a big group (for distraction purposes). Remember to use Dark arts whenever Mp is high. As long as I remember to disengage after each dip into the fray and keep Blood wep/price up during siphon blade assaults, I almost never run out of Mp in a match. Being able to close distance with plunge and follow it up with a stun is awesome too. I usually average around 2-3 kills and maybe 1 death per match... Dunno if that's good or bad for a tank.

• DRKs arent bad in PvP. Most dont know how to bring value to the party.
• Living dead is not bad. Self purify/remote purify/Bene or simple heal bombs. What? you're not near(or out of range of) your party/healer ? You are doing something wrong.
• MP needs to remain an issue since a drk can deny fucking tomeliths for prolonged periods of time.

Most people seem to think tanks are some kind of a better melee dps, that they dont need the party anymore, that they can just solo shit, rush in whole mobs of enemies without any consequences and run around like headless chickens,etc. How many times do i see tanks running around alone trying to hit everybody mindlessly....

A good tank defends his party, by locking people in place, detering melees who chage in, protecting objectives, etc. If you dont like that, change jobs. I dont like telling people how to enjoy their play style, but there is a limit. Dont use a fork to eat a soup.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

A good tank defends his party, by locking people in place, detering melees who chage in, protecting objectives, etc. If you dont like that, change jobs. I dont like telling people how to enjoy their play style, but there is a limit. Dont use a fork to eat a soup.

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Drk lacks group utility and the ability to lock down targets. I do agree with many of the points you bring up though.

drk doesn't really have lockdown or teamfight utility the way a pld does. so far all intents and purposes, they are really just a tanky melee dps.


i think, as is the case with many games, it can be difficult to know the potential of a job until someone actually does it first and paves the way. there's one particular player on my DC who routinely picks up 20 kill games on drk like it's nothing and if he actually had good, consistent teammates and heals he'd probably already have had a 30 kill game or two. to be honest, i consider that to be an eventuality anyway.

if drk had chain stuns or cover or whatever else like pld, i'd say sure try to use it as more of a support tank. but if you look at the abilities afforded to it, it's basically a tanky drg. you can do big, big things with dark knight.

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Originally Posted by kisada

drk doesn't really have lockdown or teamfight utility the way a pld does. so far all intents and purposes, they are really just a tanky melee dps.


i think, as is the case with many games, it can be difficult to know the potential of a job until someone actually does it first and paves the way. there's one particular player on my DC who routinely picks up 20 kill games on drk like it's nothing and if he actually had good, consistent teammates and heals he'd probably already have had a 30 kill game or two. to be honest, i consider that to be an eventuality anyway.

if drk had chain stuns or cover or whatever else like pld, i'd say sure try to use it as more of a support tank. but if you look at the abilities afforded to it, it's basically a tanky drg. you can do big, big things with dark knight.

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The problem with going off of kills alone is, most kills in Frontlines especially aren't 1 on 1. You could literally run around just to attempt to final hit as Drk, especially with C&S and rack up kills so quickly.

Last hits are what kills are, and they're a terrible way to determine what place a class is in. Unless we're talking about summoners. It only takes common sense to know that they're a tad bit ridiculous right now.

Anyway ya, Drk is definitely more DPS-like. They're just as selfish a role in PvP as they are in PvE.

not sure where i said anything about 1v1 or going off on kills alone. i was talking about job potential of a tank that borders on the dps-side. there is really no other way to quantify its effectiveness other than to talk about kills and damage, so to dismiss the job based on its only real barometer doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Maybe I'm playing wrong, but I actually find Drk to be better than PLD.
As a PLD, I run around stun locking people and throwing up debuffs with full swing. Skill speed/attack power are WAY too low to do much dmg, so, I usually just eat their stoneskin with spirits within and let the angry mob that's following me do the rest.

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Relating to Ditto and Kisada are talking about with group kills - that's how you can rack kills up with PLD too. It's a little selfish, but if you're a PLD locking down a target with Shield Bash IMO it's within your right to be selfish and save your OGCDs for when the target 10-15% and get the kill credit final blow > glory/full/spirits. Like you said about the lower dmg of PLD, High/Fever turns that around and things like CoS/ShieldBash actually start being significant damage. Feel the bonus of High/Fever on tank job more than DPS which is enjoyable.

The thing with PLD that's rough is the 120(?) TP cost of Shield Bash. Icarus Wings only return 300 TP, so they've got rough mobility issues. DRK is also limited to just Enliven and Icarus Wings. And regarding mobility.. as nice as Plunge is, Tempered Will can be used in place of purify when you get rooted/heavied and that can be pretty clutch. Usually after Battle High, my most used ability is Shield Lob, cuz people start just running away from a High/Fever'd PLD.

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Don't think DRK/DRG is a accurate comparison, but I would just to say that after rolling DRK I went back to DRG because it's a similar rotation but better.. No MP Gate or proc micro to factor into rotation, Fetter Ward vs No CC resist/recover (which is pretty sad considering one is a DPS, the other a TANK)...

The stance dancing of DRK.. Idk.. I ended up just leaving it on, the GCD & MP loss of dancing is pretty unforgiving. Some of these 1vs1 stories.. Sounds like a 20-30+ GCD encounter. Most 1vs1 needs to end in 10-15. After 30 seconds either you or they are getting reinforced.. and at 20+ GCD encounter odds are they were doing their job in holding you up on the road. By then you needed to be elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

and at 20+ GCD encounter odds are they were doing their job in holding you up on the road. By then you needed to be elsewhere.

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I agree with a fair bit of what you said, but this in particular strikes me as a little logically unsound.

In order to keep you there, they also need to stay there with you. Stalling has a cost. If a player is skilled enough to stall you for long enough while playing the same/a similar role as you (Tank and DPS), then chances are they are about as skilled as you. The net gain on your part is about as strong for you stalling him/her as it is for them with him/her stalling you. Which basically evens out, in most cases, to a net difference of nil.

The story would be different if you end up losing this prolonged fight, or if that one enemy is stalling more than just one of your team members. Granted, the opposite is also true.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Snip.

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I know what you mean. As both PLD and DRK (and I assume WAR too) you have to chose your targets. I aim for enemies that are 1/2 to 1/4 health and try to snipe them. It's not a huge concern for me, personally, given that there's no exp bonus for killing, but I feel like I'm more help adding extra dps to push the target over the edge.
As PLD, my main goal is to play distraction (charge in and take dmg in place of my squishier team mates) or play lure/trap. I either bait targets to my group, or I look for enemies that are crossing too deep into our lines, and stun lock them before they can get back to their healers. PLD excels at this.
Drk, on the other hand, is better for cock blocking retreats with the plunge/stun combo. The thing is, as Drk, I can solo dps squishy targets. If I get the stun off, Dark Arts-Carve and Spit-DA siphon blade combo = dead Casters/NIN or MNK. PLD can not do this.

Purify works on Walking Dead. Just going to leave that here.

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

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Except no.

A group of rival GC members are trying to cap/uncap a node. PLD goes in to stop them. He can use Circle of Scorn and Glory Slash, if they're up, and then he's limited to single target attacks. If there are more than two people interacting with the Tomelith, the PLD will not be able to protect it. If he pops Hallowed Ground, he'll just be ignored and the point will be capped.

Same situation with a DRK: The DRK runs in and can AoE until they run out of MP, which basically means that until that DRK is killed, the tomelith cannot be captured. Add onto that Living Dead and you've got a target who is preventing the entire enemy team from capping the point AND appears to be almost dead, and suddenly you're going to have an entire alliance targeting your ass and ignoring everything else, leaving your team free to heal, kill and cap.

I dread man fighting good drks more than warriors/smners.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Or you somehow still die instantly even with Walking Dead up, or before the debuff even expires.

Happens alllll the time.

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Not tested myself but if that happens it might be a one ilm puch from monk or glory slash as those removes buffs, if anyone has tested these properly i would like to know if those work or not. Or then it is good ol server lag where you pop HG see the animation then you die and notice that it didnt even go on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Februs

PLD can not do this.

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Yes we can!! if you go full crit/det with full slaying PLD can do insane burst with oGCD abilities(Full Swing even adds 20% damage taken on target+DoT)combined with stunlock, also shield swipe is direct melee counter that you can force with bulwark/shelltron. Its not uncommon to see 3k spirits and 4k RA crits in FL, but i agree WAR and DRK propably do even more burst but saying PLD cant solo DPS classes is incorrect(casters are most of the time free kill, specially those FotM smn that relies on their i win deathflare combo).

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Not tested myself but if that happens it might be a one ilm puch from monk or glory slash as those removes buffs, if anyone has tested these properly i would like to know if those work or not. Or then it is good ol server lag where you pop HG see the animation then you die and notice that it didnt even go on cooldown.

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Could be the delay too. Walking Dead and Hallowed Ground both suffer from an animation lock that has never been fixed and probably never will be. Even if the move stat is up, if the animation is not finished, OR the incoming dmg is calculated before HG/WD animation is completed, it will still count and you'll take the full hit regardless of if the stat is "active" or not. The problem is multiplied with latency issues. It's been a huge Raiding complaint among PLD's for ... well, forever, but SE has never made the cast truly instant as advertised.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Yes we can!!

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Alright, alright. My wording was a bit strong. It's not that PLD's can't solo targets, it's that PLD's have more difficulty solo dps'ing targets. DRK has dmg advantage.
Dark Arts on Siphon blade combo or carve and spit out dmg royal authority and spirits within. Not by much, granted, but it does. Drk's can also use Full swing, so that 20% dmg boost is also usable. Blood weapon boosts skill speed, so your target is less likely to book it out of there before the combo is done, and, as much as I love shield swipe, it's on the GCD, so it's not a immediate dmg increase over low blow or plunge which can both be used simultaneously as a combo.
I also get more node utility out of DRK, since I can block node caps with unleash spam. PLD has great def, but far less utility when it comes to objectives in seize.
You still do have to aim for the squishy targets though. SMN's and NIN have been the ones I tend to hunt among the pack.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

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Congrats on completely missing the point of my post

I said that Living dead does not have the lock down capability of holmgang, or the CC immunity of hallowed ground while only having the same basic functionality of denying death

at no point did i say living dead was weak in FL, i said it was weak compared to holmgang and hallowed where CC is concerned

If you are going to disagree to a post next time, please quote a post that actually has content for you to disagree with

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Yes we can!! if you go full crit/det with full slaying PLD can do insane burst with oGCD abilities(Full Swing even adds 20% damage taken on target+DoT)combined with stunlock, also shield swipe is direct melee counter that you can force with bulwark/shelltron. Its not uncommon to see 3k spirits and 4k RA crits in FL, but i agree WAR and DRK propably do even more burst but saying PLD cant solo DPS classes is incorrect(casters are most of the time free kill, specially those FotM smn that relies on their i win deathflare combo).

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Neat! I spend most of my matches stun locking folks and defending points, so when I get into one-on-one encounters I'm usually at a bit of a loss. I'll definitely be using these tips, thanks!

Helpful Changes:

• Ability to use Second Wind
• A CC out of our stun that isn't on a 150/180 second cooldown (Tar Pit is a damn good skill in those messy team fights, but on smaller encounters, or even 1v1, we have nothing but our stun).
• Group Utility ↑

Tweaks

• Living Dead (it's not bad, but without purify or a healer to boost you back up to 100% HP its not that great, nor does it bring anything to the team, compared to Holmgang.)

Things that are manageable and/or don't require much tweaking or changes:

• MP Consumption - Know when to pop in and out of Darkside and Grit, and you won't have a problem.
• Damage
• Class enjoyment - this class is so much fun to play.

just my opinion.

You guys are trying to make adjustments to classes based on the results of a 72 man cluster F*** please wait till they get the wolves den out at least before you start attempting to make balance suggestions

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Originally Posted by Februs

as much as I love shield swipe, it's on the GCD, so it's not a immediate dmg increase over low blow or plunge which can both be used simultaneously as a combo.

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Well its not the SS damage that counters melee its the 6sec+ pacification that wrecks them, also i just got DRK lvl60 few days ago and tested it in FL sure it has some nice burst and all but i still kinda prefer PLD as it has more utility and Glory Slash is just too good compared to DRK pvp skills imo also being mana starved when not even in combat due FL combat "bug" sucks(nin's and their hide suffer same problem).

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Well its not the SS damage that counters melee its the 6sec+ pacification that wrecks them

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Oh, I have no doubts about PLD's ability to completely cock block enemies. Though, Pacification doesn't always work in your benefit, since targets can still move and can sometimes just run the heck away when they realize they're locked. It's too bad that move is (basically) random, because being able to time it would be obscene... though I'm sure people would complain about it.

In terms of utility, I find Pld's to be more useful at def and lures. Covers/stuns/and pacification are very useful at stopping enemies and allowing your dps to murder pretty much anything you touch. Drk, on the other hand, is much more useful at keeping enemies from capping nodes, and pushing the dps over the edge, setting up area blocks with salt of the earth, and acting as a snare for enemies who are trying to flee the scene.

Personally, though, I find Drk's abilities to be much more useful than a combo dot, and I'm not sure what you mean by Mana problem. I've been running around as DRK for weeks and I have never once had an issue with mp management, unless it was my own fault and I just wasn't paying attention. Blood weapon and Blood price cap me every time, and it's not like it's a big deal to drop darkside when there's a lull in the fighting, if you really have to.