Limitless Blue (Extreme) - Why do many people still fail DPS checks?

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Sad truth is that most of the people that play this game are absolutely awful at it.

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Most people that play games are awful at them. It's rather the trend lately. The problem is when those awful players play games that require you to play with others.

...because some people don't care anymore. Square-Enix wanted to make the game friendly to everyone, but every fight is a friggin DPS check, AND they don't want usage of third party tools (parsers). Healers have it rough, and tanks have it rough, so people become a DPS.

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Originally Posted by healthetank

It'd be great if they put in a required quest, a la wow proving grounds, where a dps must get ~600 on a dummy before they can queue for alex or ex, but 75% of the playerbase would quit. They are that bad.

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Proving Grounds is actually a very good idea, IF there was an ingame parser. As it is now having a Proving Grounds quest with no way of telling DPS except through a 3rd party program most of the playerbase don't/won't use is a recipe for disaster. With a parser I see many ppl asking their FC/LS for help with their rotations to pass. The players need to know how much DPS they are doing.

But this is SE, who baby the players and then turn around with an ugly troll face and tell them to "Git Gud." They love to be counter-productive and take shortcuts wherever they can so this all is just a pipedream

as a few others have said, it is because a lot of people are terrible.

its the same with any fight that requires of something of dps... whether it be a tight dps check or literally anything more than pew-pewing, always ends up going badly. I say that as a dps

also they know there is no need to improve if they can't pass something, as shortly SE will nerf it to the point of you can just ignore every mechanic anyway

The problem with dps check fights without the ability to use a personal parser is you have no way of knowing what your dps is, and if there is any way to change your rotation to increase it. You can try attacking a target dummy, but that only shows part of the picture. You can stand there and dps away at it without having to move for attacks and such. So these players that fail the dps check may in their own heads feel that they are doing everything they can but in the end they are the reason for the failure.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

...because some people don't care anymore. Square-Enix wanted to make the game friendly to everyone, but every fight is a friggin DPS check, AND they don't want usage of third party tools (parsers). Healers have it rough, and tanks have it rough, so people become a DPS.

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Yeah, people really stop caring quite quickly.

I've been FATE-leveling my DRG in NT for a while now, most people there have had a higher level and better equip for the majority of this, not to mention more and better AoE, yet I quite often clocked in 1st or 2nd highest DPS, and I wasn't even trying to maximize it for the most part, unless it's a boss FATE.
People just go numb with these sorts of leveling, and with the lack of challenge most Dungeons provide when lacking DPS (Fractal can be annoying with low DPS, but it's nowhere near run-breaking when the healer knows how to manage mana), they just don't care, they don't try, and then they fail completely when it comes to actual hard content.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying people should tryhard during FATE-zerging, it's just that it's one of the reasons why they get used to slacking.

Ps4 player, always ask for my dps.
Did Alex 1 last night in df, me (mch) and a bard on 0.5 add, bard and a drg on the main. We got the 0.5 down to 5% the second team was only now 31%.......

I wish I could find more groups that would fail the DPS check on Bismarck. Most groups in party finder I join either attack the wrong serpent, fail to do a tank swap, or take needless deaths in the tank swap portion. It's literally harder than Alexander Normal at its worst. I'm sitting at i185 or so on my DPS, and I know what I'm doing, but I've just lost my patience for having a group failing before we can even test our DPS against the serpents (which I know we wouldn't meet because most groups can't even swap / attack the correct target, and dead people don't put out DPS).

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Originally Posted by dekal

DPS get lazy. Yesterday, I joined a bis ex clear party / I don't need it, but I wanted to help out/, and they broke the shell on the whales back on the first 2 wipes, but on the third, fourth, fifth, AND sixth wipe they kept reducing their dps and we ended up wiping right on the beginning.

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I've noticed this trend a lot :/ Go to clear content with a "clear pt" and the best attempt is usually the 1st or 2nd, then it just gets worse each wipe, like they gave up. With the amount of people who don't know their job or are just plain bad, it really feels like "Didn't clear it day 1? You'll never get it done now." It sucks when you're an actual good player and know how to play your job, but get held back by the massive amount of people who don't (and can't get a static)

My group is using it to test new people we bring into our static, because of the dps check.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

I've noticed this trend a lot :/ Go to clear content with a "clear pt" and the best attempt is usually the 1st or 2nd, then it just gets worse each wipe, like they gave up. With the amount of people who don't know their job or are just plain bad, it really feels like "Didn't clear it day 1? You'll never get it done now." It sucks when you're an actual good player and know how to play your job, but get held back by the massive amount of people who don't (and can't get a static)

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It's called morale. Low morale functions like a domino effect. If there's nothing to bring up, it'll keep falling.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

you are always awfully playing because there is awlays someone playing better then you and always someone telling you how bad you are and how you little so know of your class, even if you think you are a Master at it.

Keep this in mind before going about pointing fingers, that is why there is a group to compensate the weakness of others, sometimes is your weakness that is compensated and sometimes you have to do that..

Just me though...I am always careful before pointing fingers at others and calling them bad.

Mei

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There's a difference between not being lucrezia-level and being a 320 dps ice mage. You knew what I was talking about. Sure, relativity is a thing, but a lot of people are just legitimately terrible.

Because there is no parser for people to learn from.

Don't need a parser to see that spamming ice spell do lesser damage that fire-ice rotation skill. Or always using the AoE Turret on single target. It's just blind stupidity.

I'm agree with you on the point that between 1k and 1k1 dps the difference is hard to see... an maybe u need parser for that. But the point is that ppl are underdoing severly (i've seen a dragoon at 450 DPS and 600 DPS burst...)

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Originally Posted by Blacksyd

Or always using the AoE Turret on single target.

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>_> You don't realize how often I actually see this, or they'll never use the turret unless they need tp, then they ONLY use it for tp :/ Tbh, it's more efficient if you use bishop turret on 3 enemies, but 4 or more use promotion rook and spread shot spam, otherwise, just leave rook on auto attack for under 3 enemies.
Sure, mch isn't the most amazing damage, it's decentish if you're not bad, but the amount of bad mch hurt its reputation even more :/ especially when the bad ones barely do damage.

I really love the idea of proving grounds. Not sure how they worked in wow but they could be solo job specific duties that really force a player to learn their rotation and certain mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I really love the idea of proving grounds. Not sure how they worked in wow but they could be solo job specific duties that really force a player to learn their class and certain mechanics.

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I feel they should have a sort of maat type solo fight, before you're allowed to unlock EX / expert >_> And make it challenging, changing depending on what job you are and no nerfs. Sure, it might lock out a lot of people from content and this is going to sound elitist, but do you really want all of the bads in the harder content, holding the good people back? I sure don't. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of not getting the chance to do content on day 1 and missing out on the other good people doing it too, resulting in me getting stuck with people who can't do their rotations or dodge. It's really depressing when party after party, I'm usually the last alive or the only one actually doing the mechanics :/

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

" It sucks when you're an actual good player and know how to play your job, but get held back by the massive amount of people who don't (and can't get a static)

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Oh tell me about it. Im savage quality player but I cant get a static due to work times and get held back by those of less quality. Reason I never did coil or take longer to complete certain content.

Wish I could find a static but since launch no luck :[

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

Oh tell me about it. Im savage quality player but I cant get a static due to work times and get held back by those of less quality. Reason I never did coil or take longer to complete certain content.

Wish I could find a static but since launch no luck :[

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Same :/ me and a fc member didn't finish t5 until final coil was out, because we'd end up in pts where "everyone knew the fight", yet me and him were the only ones who knew conflag or divebombs...
And the rare times I can find a static, it works for one run, then only like 1-2 people show up for any other run then it ends up breaking.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Same :/ me and a fc member didn't finish t5 until final coil was out, because we'd end up in pts where "everyone knew the fight", yet me and him were the only ones who knew conflag or divebombs...
And the rare times I can find a static, it works for one run, then only like 1-2 people show up for any other run then it ends up breaking.

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Its very hard to form a static out of people you don't know. They require chemistry. You need to make them your friends. Do other content in the game with them. Hang out, socialize, make crude jokes. I've witness groups fall apart even after 1+ years because they never were really friends, just acquaintances to progress through content.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

I've noticed this trend a lot :/ Go to clear content with a "clear pt" and the best attempt is usually the 1st or 2nd, then it just gets worse each wipe, like they gave up. With the amount of people who don't know their job or are just plain bad, it really feels like "Didn't clear it day 1? You'll never get it done now." It sucks when you're an actual good player and know how to play your job, but get held back by the massive amount of people who don't (and can't get a static)

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Yeah. The new primals ex is good to check DPs and coordination. I remember trying ravana with a static. It was my third attempt. I was able to clear, but I knew I made mistakes. Why my fourth and fifth attempts I learnt the mechanics and tactics to follow. I'm glad with this static group I am. I interact as much as I can with them to bond and and become friends cuz that is the only way to keep a group together.

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Originally Posted by Heskett

Its very hard to form a static out of people you don't know. They require chemistry. You need to make them your friends. Do other content in the game with them. Hang out, socialize, make crude jokes. I've witness groups fall apart even after 1+ years because they never were really friends, just acquaintances to progress through content.

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Problem is, any other mmo that would work, but XIV encourages people to not make friends and do everything solo on DF >_> so the community is almost non-existent

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Problem is, any other mmo that would work, but XIV encourages people to not make friends and do everything solo on DF >_> so the community is almost non-existent

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Nah, if you genuinely believe that then you're not making a true effort into socializing on this game.

Well Bex is very much a dps fight and you must push, really no room for dps to slow down.
I am guilty of not switching to the correct add right away all of the time as blm.
Clear it as soon as you can everyone, nerf is probably going to happen in some patches from now ....
Also with all the talk of parsers in what not if it's good or bad, i very much would like one and not for negative reasons of calling people out if they have low dps
(do not need a parser to figure out if someone has low dps) but as a way to probably push myself harder.
It is true that if you see your dmg numbers on screen you may figure, oh wow i am actually pretty good, only when you see a parse may it prove otherwise, lol

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

>_> You don't realize how often I actually see this, or they'll never use the turret unless they need tp, then they ONLY use it for tp :/ Tbh, it's more efficient if you use bishop turret on 3 enemies, but 4 or more use promotion rook and spread shot spam, otherwise, just leave rook on auto attack for under 3 enemies.
Sure, mch isn't the most amazing damage, it's decentish if you're not bad, but the amount of bad mch hurt its reputation even more :/ especially when the bad ones barely do damage.

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Good machinist will pull out Bishop on single target fights to promote for MP then switch back.

Sure that's not what you're seeing?

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I really love the idea of proving grounds. Not sure how they worked in wow but they could be solo job specific duties that really force a player to learn their rotation and certain mechanics.

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They didn't work.

And I completed silver damage as a healer, silver tank as a healer, silver healer as dps...

If that gives an idea of how "hard" they are(you only need silver).

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Problem is, any other mmo that would work, but XIV encourages people to not make friends and do everything solo on DF >_> so the community is almost non-existent

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Which is why there are people who sell Primal kills. On the spectrum of MMORPGs this is the least social MMORPG I've ever played.

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Originally Posted by Heskett

Nah, if you genuinely believe that then you're not making a true effort into socializing on this game.

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Except I never had to put out that kind of effort to socialize in any other MMORPG I've played. The social component to FFXIV doesn't start till end game, which is far too late by comparison to other MMORPGs. Without parsers, new damage dealers only have the feedback from other people to tell them whether they are doing it right. Given it is impolite to comment on a complete stranger's performance unless there is something holding everyone back, no one is going to give that needed feedback to the damage dealer until things get tough. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen till end game.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

They didn't work.

And I completed silver damage as a healer, silver tank as a healer, silver healer as dps...

If that gives an idea of how "hard" they are(you only need silver).

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You clearly didn't see the people who complained on the forums that they couldn't get past silver.
A lot eventually learnt to.
It was still a learning experience for those people.

It didn't fail anyway. There were more challenging ones besides the minimum and people went in there.
The silver requirement to group was lax because you couldn't go to dungeons (even with friends) without doing it.

But it was basically a tutorial feature, and almost functional as a personal meter.
It could've done more in terms of rotation, but that's hard when rotations change via balance patches and I think most developers like to let players figure out optimal rotations.

So in the end, it was just minor personal tanking/healing/dps checks, with some extra mechanics to test how you adapt.
And as a feature, that works. The requirement to group as a form of gating isn't as important as the content itself.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Except I never had to put out that kind of effort to socialize in any other MMORPG I've played. Socializing should be a key component to the game play. Here, we're encouraged to take the least social route to going through any content.

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You must mean casual content.
You can group for the expert roulette. You can't group for the rest, except High Level.

Otherwise, doing Alex normal is largely more efficient with a premade.
And you can't even solo DF the Ex Primals or Savage.

So you're not "encouraged to take the least social route" for "any content" when the main parts of end-game encourage you to be a part of a static.
You won't get progression without socializing in this game. That's a pretty key part.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Good machinist will pull out Bishop on single target fights to promote for MP then switch back.

Sure that's not what you're seeing?

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I'm sure and I use bishop for mp when needed, but half these mch I see never use a turret and only pull it out for promotion for tp, then put it away. I've even seen a good majority of mch not even bothering with procs and just using skills, with or without the proc up

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

You clearly didn't see the people who complained on the forums that they couldn't get past silver.
A lot eventually learnt to.
It was still a learning experience for those people.

It didn't fail anyway. There were more challenging ones besides the minimum and people went in there.
The silver requirement to group was lax because you couldn't go to dungeons (even with friends) without doing it.

But it was basically a tutorial feature, and almost functional as a personal meter.
It could've done more in terms of rotation, but that's hard when rotations change via balance patches and I think most developers like to let players figure out optimal rotations.

So in the end, it was just minor personal tanking/healing/dps checks, with some extra mechanics to test how you adapt.
And as a feature, that works. The requirement to group as a form of gating isn't as important as the content itself.



You must mean casual content.
You can group for the expert roulette. You can't group for the rest, except High Level.

Otherwise, doing Alex normal is largely more efficient with a premade.
And you can't even solo DF the Ex Primals or Savage.

So you're not "encouraged to take the least social route" for "any content" when the main parts of end-game encourage you to be a part of a static.
You won't get progression without socializing in this game. That's a pretty key part.

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But that's the problem. The entire game is built around ease of access tools, making it into an impartial lobby game with a social atmosphere akin to a Call of Duty and suddenly they are dropped in a situation where they need to organize full out eight man groups to succeed. There was no buildup to that. Nor did the game provide an atmosphere for relationships to develop between players. Players would have an entire social network by the time end game would come around in older titles because the need for a network slowly ramped up as the game progressed. SE lost that particular detail by looking at games that went F2P.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

You clearly didn't see the people who complained on the forums that they couldn't get past silver.
A lot eventually learnt to.
It was still a learning experience for those people.

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I did. And no, it really wasn't.

I know a lot of folks that didn't do them at all, or only ran premade groups for heroics.

i also personally know a bunch of people that had others do their PGs for them.

You also didn't notice that most of the folks complaining about them played certain classes. Certain classes that had weaknesses that eventually got adjusted.

And most of the gimmicks used in PGs(ambers being the biggest ones) have no place in the actual content. Even at minimum gear you could brute force the entire thing.

Then again...

It wasn't really challenging until you did endless.

https://youtu.be/DUx4vmYTME0

My main screwup at the end there was assuming my aoe would hit the idiot standing in the middle. -_-

Edit: Even endless was a preset set of waves that repeated itself and you used a predetermined rotation of CDs to get through it.

That was done during MoP, and in WoD it was even easier.

We have been bringing our potential static members into savage faust and letting them try to see how they fair. I think it's a big wake up call for some people which isn't necessarily a bad thing. @180+ melee/mages needs to be bringing a minimum of 1100 and ranged/support a min of 1000 to even really consider attempting the content. Tanks should be pushing at least 600 - 800. Exceptional dps will push more than that but with any less than that you might as well practice your rotation or get some better gear.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I did. And no, it really wasn't.

I know a lot of folks that didn't do them at all, or only ran premade groups for heroics.

i also personally know a bunch of people that had others do their PGs for them.

You also didn't notice that most of the folks complaining about them played certain classes. Certain classes that had weaknesses that eventually got adjusted.

And most of the gimmicks used in PGs(ambers being the biggest ones) have no place in the actual content. Even at minimum gear you could brute force the entire thing.

Then again...

It wasn't really challenging until you did endless.

https://youtu.be/DUx4vmYTME0

My main screwup at the end there was assuming my aoe would hit the idiot standing in the middle. -_-

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The points of the gimmicks are to throw a wrench in your rotation.
That's all really.
It's not teaching you to deal with specific raid mechanics.
It's just how you deal with something while doing your rotation.

The main people who complained were locks and shamans, and I mained both.
You could easily do it with minimum gear with either.
There were people who had trouble but learnt to do it in those, and some who just complained.

But still the difficulty doesn't really matter, it's about the concept.
I don't think it's an issue if it can be ignored or bypassed.
Only that the content is there for the ones who are willing to use it.

Endless alone made it successful even if it wasn't some fix for all bad players out there.
It provided a solo challenge that had different levels.

It could be done better, with more relevant mechanics and a steeper learning curve.
But the design was solid and would be much better here where there are people who don't use parsers so they don't know they're really bad.

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The main people who complained were locks and shamans, and I mained both.
You could easily do it with minimum gear with either.
There were people who had trouble but learnt to do it in those, and some who just complained.

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You mean "locks and shaman of specific specs".

The DPS trials were rather AOE heavy and not all specs were created equal.

With locks there was less issue of "go switch spec and git gud", but with shaman, it required an entirely different gear set up. Different stat priorities and weapons, specifically.

My main then was my rsham, and close behind that was my rdruid, whom I raided with. The same rsham I did the tank/dps trials on.

That was sad. Healbomb the healer NPC and let her nuke all of it down. Lol

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Originally Posted by Makado

Because there is no parser for people to learn from.

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You mean use to put people down.

Which check? The snakes that tether and use buffs to reflect damage?
Or The primal that you can only stay on a certain amount of time?
Or the shell? Ive heard can be cleared even if you don't break it on the first go. But that not a common idea.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

You mean use to put people down.

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This is exactly why there's lots of bad DPS and a negative attitude towards parsers. People are too sensitive and take objective criticism as "waah waah they're putting me down" so they just continue to believe they're doing nothing wrong and wondering why they can't meet DPS checks.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

You mean use to put people down.

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Why can't people be put down for performing poorly? Obviously things like "you suck, git gud casual" shouldn't be said, but things like "You're performing poorly, mind stepping it up a little? Otherwise we'll have to find a replacement" should be perfectly fine. I'm not playing FFXIV to carry people, and I'm sure any other competent player isn't either. If you're dragging your party down, learn to play better.

The reason limitless blue throws so many people for a loop is because many people are underutilizing their abilities when doing fights. Maybe they've been spending too much time doing fate grinds and not enough time doing actual boss battles where their deficiencies can be more obvious?

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Originally Posted by Twilite

You mean use to put people down.

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Quick question, if you joined a group and the tank ran round in circles, never used a cooldown and just stood in aoes which caused your team to wipe, would you say something?

Likewise, if you healer was just sat there spamming medica I making the tank die, would you say something?

Now let me understand this, its bad if the tank sucks, its awful if the healer sucks.....but aslong that dps is mashing some random buttons together that's acceptable?

But what if in some way a dps could see what they are doing? Wouldn't that be amazing, see dat low dps and be like bro I'm gonna go work on dat rotation.