Alexander Savage: The raid that killed the ability to help your friends clear

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

thats a easy way to kill selling loot (but no clears )

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Not really because the real hardcore players have 2 character that clear so they can just use the "alts" to sell a full clear with all chests

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

Not really because the real hardcore players have 2 character that clear so they can just use the "alts" to sell a full clear with all chests

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Or in some cases 6 alt characters

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

I gather from your join date that you're probably a bit new to the game.
This is how all of the 'hardcore' raids have worked on release.

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No. It's not. Originally, once you cleared you couldn't re-enter until weekly reset. Period.

@OP - the raid didn't kill your ability to help your friends clear at all. If they're truly interested in the clear, your friends should be happy to have the help of someone that's already been able to clear it themselves. Sacrificing a single loot chest to see the fight in its entirety is a pretty small thing. You still get the token for the first clear of the week no matter what, and the person that's already cleared doesn't even see what loot drops so there's no chance they can take it from you. You take the knowledge from that clear and go forward with it, potentially getting a two chest clear for your own group the following week. Seems like a small price to pay if you ask me.

Honestly, my static took a lot of advantage of this in FCoB. We went in 1 and no chest learning and clear parties after our weekly static runs were done so that at least some of us could see the fight.

I have a question... what if all 8 people are replaying the turn? what happens?

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

I have a question... what if all 8 people are replaying the turn? what happens?

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You can't enter. You have to have at least one person that hasn't gotten a clear that week.

This loot system isn't new with AlexS. It was like this for FCoB too.
For BCoB & SCoB, you couldn't re-enter at all if you completed for the week.

which doesnt mean it WAS a good system mate. it sucks in fact. i dont know why they do this to be honest. they should have learend by now RNG based loot doesnt work on weekly locked content. but they love RNG way to much as seen on the new tt npcs.

i bet the token system wont work on weapons again and its back to praying to rngesus on your final turn weapon before next raid comes out which is just total bullnyerk of a system. but well see. the fact yoschi has not gone into details on how these "tokens" work yet concerns me. devs usually do this when they know people wont like something and hide it until its life. seen this before many times on other mmos.... since there is no reason in detailing it since its not a spoiler or something. its just explaining of a reward system basicly.

A system designed to encourage player growth by cutting down on static exclusive runs?


Oh the humanity.

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

I gather from your join date that you're probably a bit new to the game.
This is how all of the 'hardcore' raids have worked on release.

Edit: If you're taking 'randoms' with you you're not likely to clear at all.

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Exactly this.

I don't understand... the loot rules do help your friends clear, because you can join them as long as they haven't cleared that week. Yes, it lowers the amount of loot boxes but that's kind of self explanatory...I hope.

To all those who defend that system: Where were the so called "helpers" back in FCoB ?
Be realistic: no one helped and if, then in a very very closed friend grouping, even in most FCs you have a hard time to search for "helpers".
Try to shout for it, you may be surprised how many content sellers will answer...

Edit: In most FCs they did a rotation in their weekly static by learning someone new including to get the 2 chests because its not fair for the "new" one to not get any loot.

I feel it's quite the opposite. The old system was worse, this is a really nice upgrade both the on the helping side and the loot!

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

To all those who defend that system: Where were the so called "helpers" back in FCoB ?

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They were all over if you cared to look for them. Members of my static got help with everything from T9 forward from several people that already knew the content. We paid that help forward by running learning parties of our own later on, mostly in the weeks leading up to Heavensward. I've actually been PM'ed by random people from linkshells or even just from standing around town asking for help with content, and if I'm not busy typically I'll throw some time at it. Most of the members of my static have joined existing learning parties to help out as well.

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Be realistic: no one helped and if, then in a very very closed friend grouping, even in most FCs you have a hard time to search for "helpers".
Try to shout for it, you may be surprised how many content sellers will answer...

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All I can say is that you have to work for it like everyone else. Take the effort to put up a learning party in PF. Join a raid linkshell. Hell, join a social linkshell and ask if there's other people that want to learn or people that can help you learn. If you don't bother to look for help, then you can't really expect to get any. As far as mercs go, it is what it is. Some people want to just pay to get the clear and I see nothing wrong with providing that service. Others want to learn, and that's awesome. It's always great to see someone that actually wants to do it themselves.

sure the old system was worse 100% because rng loot 100'% sucks. but this new system is not that great either. its to harsh i say. you lose already a coffer with ONE helper? a single player does not have that much impact most the time i would actually say if 3 or more people cleared already THEN you should lose 1 coffer but not with 1 or 2 helpers. the restriction for the second coffer at 5 players+ is fair tough. nothing wrong with that otherwise sellers would become to big of an issue and this would in turn FEED gil sellers which is never a good thing to do.

sometimes someone got rl issues and cannot play for some reason and you have to replace them. its not really fair to be punished with a coffer loss for such cases i say for example. but aslong as there is only 1 or 2 helpers dont touch the loot i say. sure keep the restriction so they cannot roll. thats fine imo.

some people will agree on this and some wont. but getting the same 8 players to constantly play together seems much more stressful and hard than actually learing and beating a turn it seems as far as my experience goes :/ since everyone has different rl and sometimes you get in trouble with this. think most static players know what i talk about.

this new system with the token still beeing granted is atleast better tough. still not ideal i say. but step in right direction.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

you lose already a coffer with ONE helper? a single player does not have that much impact most the time i would actually say if 3 or more people cleared already THEN you should lose 1 coffer but not with 1 or 2 helpers.

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A single person with in-depth knowledge of the mechanics can make all the difference in the world.

I think it's fair as it is.

If 1 helper would not sacrifice loot then you would share 2 loot with 7 players and that would be unfair for players that need share 2 loot with 8 players. If there is 4 helpers loot ratio is exactly the same if 4 players need share 1 loot than 8 players need share 2 loot. In theory you should get 1 loot and 3/4 of second loot with one helper but you can not get half piece of the loot so whole coffer is removed.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

To all those who defend that system: Where were the so called "helpers" back in FCoB ?
Be realistic: no one helped and if, then in a very very closed friend grouping, even in most FCs you have a hard time to search for "helpers".
Try to shout for it, you may be surprised how many content sellers will answer...

Edit: In most FCs they did a rotation in their weekly static by learning someone new including to get the 2 chests because its not fair for the "new" one to not get any loot.

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*Raises hand*
I was one; one out of a few dozen in a linkshell I'm a part of.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

sure the old system was worse 100% because rng loot 100'% sucks. but this new system is not that great either. its to harsh i say. you lose already a coffer with ONE helper? a single player does not have that much impact most the time i would actually say if 3 or more people cleared already THEN you should lose 1 coffer but not with 1 or 2 helpers. the restriction for the second coffer at 5 players+ is fair tough. nothing wrong with that otherwise sellers would become to big of an issue and this would in turn FEED gil sellers which is never a good thing to do.

sometimes someone got rl issues and cannot play for some reason and you have to replace them. its not really fair to be punished with a coffer loss for such cases i say for example. but aslong as there is only 1 or 2 helpers dont touch the loot i say. sure keep the restriction so they cannot roll. thats fine imo.

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Say that again the next time you wipe due a single person goofing up repeatedly.

In coil, one person can greatly increase the chance of a clear if they are not error prone (i.e. Experienced) and are able to optimize how they play (i.e. Something that comes with experience).

An experienced person actually in the fight can also give more effective feedback about what the group might be doing poorly.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

They were all over if you cared to look for them. Members of my static got help with everything from T9 forward from several people that already knew the content. We paid that help forward by running learning parties of our own later on, mostly in the weeks leading up to Heavensward. I've actually been PM'ed by random people from linkshells or even just from standing around town asking for help with content, and if I'm not busy typically I'll throw some time at it. Most of the members of my static have joined existing learning parties to help out as well.



All I can say is that you have to work for it like everyone else. Take the effort to put up a learning party in PF. Join a raid linkshell. Hell, join a social linkshell and ask if there's other people that want to learn or people that can help you learn. If you don't bother to look for help, then you can't really expect to get any. As far as mercs go, it is what it is. Some people want to just pay to get the clear and I see nothing wrong with providing that service. Others want to learn, and that's awesome. It's always great to see someone that actually wants to do it themselves.

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I hope you are talking generally and not directly to me...

So basically if someone is telling you from experience what is happening, for you its just like a lie... is that how you treat others?

Maybe its just an issue on my server, but i tested on other servers too... well, not on Sargatanas or Jenova but in FACT majority of players who are seeking dont get adequate help because there is NO one helping and sorry but thats a FACT... go to portal, shout for help and count the time untill "someone" is answering! (You can do the groupfinder thingy for 4h and try it with hardcore kicking every 2 runs, or because on every wipe someone says: "sorry have to go") Stop blubbing nonsense from FCs or such because thats not what is actually (or was in FCoB) happening. Yea, your FC is sooo awesome, how great you are and so... really? it sounds more like an advertisement than a real mirroring of the situation!

@CGMidlander: What do you aim with your reply? It would help others more if you tell them how you have found your linkshell and not how awesome "you" are...

Edit: (just to mention) I often see Situations where "one" (to simply tie it up i say one, in real its a bit more coplicated with prime times and player motivations, so just to drama it lets say "one player") is helping but he/she/they cant help everyone who is seeking! After hours of helping there is still a lot who is asking for help but he/she/they simply need a break...

The majority won't help because if even half the community learns to do a lot if this hardcore content then they lose the profitability of selling these runs to the 'lesser' players.

Kudos to the ones that do but the greed outweighs the minority.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

I hope you are talking generally and not directly to me...

So basically if someone is telling you from experience what is happening, for you its just like a lie... is that how you treat others?

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Sorry, but I have just as much right to share my personal experience as you do. My personal experience is that the people that complain the loudest about not being "able" to find help with content are those that don't actually look. They open up Party Finder, don't find what they're looking for, and chalk it up to nobody else wanting to do what they want to do. Someone has to start the party, and many people just don't want it to be them for whatever reason; they'll join if they see it, but if they don't they won't start one. If your personal experience is that you've actually looked for help and not found it, I'm sorry to hear that. My experience doesn't invalidate yours, or vice versa; it just shows that people exist that have different experiences and that neither is the only point of view.

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Maybe its just an issue on my server, but i tested on other servers too... well, not on Sargatanas or Jenova but in FACT majority of players who are seeking dont get adequate help because there is NO one helping and sorry but thats a FACT... go to portal, shout for help and count the time untill "someone" is answering! (You can do the groupfinder thingy for 4h and try it with hardcore kicking every 2 runs, or because on every wipe someone says: "sorry have to go")

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This isn't my personal experience either. Shouting isn't necessarily all that effective, but I've found Party Finder to be a really useful tool for finding people on the same page as me. True, ragequitters and bad players are something everyone has to deal with. Sometimes you get unlucky. Sometimes, though, you find really good people to play with. Keep those people around. Add them to your friends list. Start a linkshell with them. Stay in touch. The fact that you've had several people in this thread alone say that they do help completely invalidates your statement about "no one helping". There are people helping, but we can't help everyone all the time.

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Stop blubbing nonsense from FCs or such because thats not what is actually (or was in FCoB) happening. Yea, your FC is sooo awesome, how great you are and so... really? it sounds more like an advertisement than a real mirroring of the situation!

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Sorry, but it is what actually happened. We spent the last six weeks leading to Heavensward running 3-4 hours worth of learning parties every Saturday night. There's a thread in the Sargatanas forum advertising it, and we advertised on the Sargatanas Facebook group too. It was something we specifically did in order to help the community. On top of that, many members of my static will jump into learning parties for various content just to help out, or even run that content in DF and get some lucky random a clear. We actually had a situation where a player that couldn't play during our normal learning party hours PM'ed the static leader to ask if we could teach him T13 at a time when he'd be available. He was in Europe, so the times we play are very very late for him and he just couldn't be on due to his work and family. We did it, because we genuinely enjoy helping people. We enjoy being there to share those first clear moments even with people we don't even know. It has nothing to do with advertising or trying to make ourselves look good or anything of the sort, and everything to do with the fact that we simply enjoy helping.

There are people out there willing to help, but unless you jump up and down and wave a flag that says "HEY I WANT TO LEARN THIS" we don't know you want help. We barely know you exist! You're a name among hundreds of names that we see run by in Mor Dhona (well, Idyllshire now) every day. Put that learning party up. Join some linkshells. Ask around. Do what you can to make yourself stand out from all of the other white names running around. :3

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Originally Posted by Neri

What's the fuss though? I mean, even if there are no chests drop, the new comers still get the tokens. I think it still an improvement over the Final Coil?

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Fully agree with this. Seems to me more user friend loot system .

I'm totally happy with this new loot system.

sounds like the op wants to double dip on loot. If you really want to "help" your friends then getting loot shouldn't be an issue unless they want to be carried by 7 ppl who have cleared it and still get the same rewards as them, then that's an entirely different thing. I understand why this systems is in place and part of it is to detract carry sellers but there are ways to get around that so that failed. Plus you are still getting a token. Even if you only get tokens in theory you should have the full gear (maybe not the weapon?) in a few months which isn't too bad. Im assuming most expensive pieces will cost 10 tokens equating to about 3 weeks of not getting the gear you want.

I don't think Savage will be getting farmed as much as you think it will, especially on Jenova, OP. I don't even think we had a T6 savage clear until shortly before the expac. We won't be having very many carry parties until you can get much better gear elsewhere.

I... don't see the problem. If you're running it again to help someone else then you've probably already got your drop, or someone else there anyway. There's no need to have all the chests at the end. This really shouldn't be an issue for a good static, you're all trying to gear eachother up so asshattery over the chests should be the last thing that happens.

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

I gather from your join date that you're probably a bit new to the game.
This is how all of the 'hardcore' raids have worked on release.

Edit: If you're taking 'randoms' with you you're not likely to clear at all.

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Just a quick comment. I like the loot system for Alex Savage. But I just wanted to point something out really quick.

Just because this is how it has been done before does not make it a good idea.

But again. To be clear. I do indeed like the loot system for Alex Savage.

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Originally Posted by Ori

Just a quick comment. I like the loot system for Alex Savage. But I just wanted to point something out really quick.

Just because this is how it has been done before does not make it a good idea.

But again. To be clear. I do indeed like the loot system for Alex Savage.

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I think it has more to do with the OPs melodramatic "the sky is falling" take on the system, as if this is something new.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I think it has more to do with the OPs melodramatic "the sky is falling" take on the system, as if this is something new.

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Maybe we are both inflecting different emotions on to OP. I got the impression he was just making a zero emotion statement.

OP. If you read this could you please explain to us how you feel about the Alex Savage Loot system. aka Were you just expressing concern. Or are you bent out of shape about it. Scale of 1-10 and all that Jazz? Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I think it has more to do with the OPs melodramatic "the sky is falling" take on the system, as if this is something new.

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Ah you know what. I just re-read the Title of the post.. and Yeah I do get that end of the world impression.

OP. waiting on you for clarification dude.

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Originally Posted by Ori

Ah you know what. I just re-read the Title of the post.. and Yeah I do get that end of the world impression.

OP. waiting on you for clarification dude.

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Off topic, but if you see some of his other threads, they all have the same sentiment. One of those posters. Everything is the end of the world. Its a nice change from his daily BRD/MCH whinge thread though. I'm pretty sure the first time he steps in Savage, within the hour we will get a "Savage is too hard, subs will drop like rain!" thread.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Off topic, but if you see some of his other threads, they all have the same sentiment. One of those posters. Everything is the end of the world. Its a nice change from his daily BRD/MCH whinge thread though. I'm pretty sure the first time he steps in Savage, within the hour we will get a "Savage is too hard, subs will drop like rain!" thread.

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Ah. You are familiar with his posts. Cool then you have a pretty good idea how he may be acting.

No worries then.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

@CGMidlander: What do you aim with your reply? It would help others more if you tell them how you have found your linkshell and not how awesome "you" are...

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I responded to your question, of course.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

To all those who defend that system: Where were the so called "helpers" back in FCoB ?
Be realistic: no one helped and if, then in a very very closed friend grouping, even in most FCs you have a hard time to search for "helpers".

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As for how I found the linkshell, I was literally just floating around PFs and performing consistently well in them. It took a couple months of this, so it wasn't immediate, but I did get noticed.

Were you not here for final coil or any coils for that matter?

I agree with most people here that this new drop system is better than the old one from First Coil. While you can help the odd member / friend to clear some fight, it doesn't address the issue of groups outside the exact size of 8:

* What about Free Companies / LS / Friends that have more than 8 members?

It's so weird, this mentality I'm seeing on the boards - that by allowing people to run any content more than once a week it automatically means "they're selling runs" or "someone's looking to get carried" - in my personal experience that's not the case (and never has been), but maybe it's the way everyone plays nowadays?

From Final Fantasy XI to this game in 1.0, the reason to be able to run content more than once a week (for our friends at least) was because:

* You had an Odd Number of Free Company / Linkshell / Friends outside of the exact 8 players to enter, and wanted to raid with them consistently.

It was a way to Rotate in Members who were NOT being carried (they studied and pulled their own weight), but to just do Free Company / LS activities together (whether it was doing Sky (Kirin) to Dynamis to hunting XYZ, etc.).

Yoshi P's new system doesn't address this fundamental issue:

* If you have more than 8 members in your FC or LS or more than 7 Friends? "Sorry, find your own static. See ya'. Can't help you out." :rolleyes:

It's pretty sad, but maybe everyone likes playing that way?

I just wish someone would come up with a Raid / Loot System that could enable FC / LS to rotate in members if they actually had more than 8 people to do *regular raiding every week* and not just push those "odd number members" away to fend for themselves and have to find their own static.

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Originally Posted by Natsuno

It stops the system from being abused (gear funneling). As far as RNG lets you anyway.

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This. Be glad we're even allowed to help others. Being carried through the fight is your loot.