What is Carve and Spit for?

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Originally Posted by Timat

Its just a lackluster boring abiliyt regardless...it being the last one we get just adds to it.

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Eh, it's fine. Great tool to use for more MP or to use as burst damage depending on the situation. It doesn't define our class or anything, but I feel it augments our toolkit quite well.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Eh, it's fine. Great tool to use for more MP or to use as burst damage depending on the situation. It doesn't define our class or anything, but I feel it augments our toolkit quite well.

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To each his own but while its an ok skill I feel like it should have a bit more flair.

I rarely use it outside of DA as other have said...which makes it a plain old 450 potency attack on a 1min CD.

Yes its nice...just not all that interesting.

Its not even a three hit attack some have said.

It would be much better if it hit three times as the skill description and animation suggests.

For the very long cooldown it has, it should be hitting 3 times like the description, totaling 1350 potency with Dark Arts. It's kind of annoying that our ultimate attack doesn't even hit as hard as a Warrior's level 54 skill.

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Originally Posted by Valnen

For the very long cooldown it has, it should be hitting 3 times like the description, totaling 1350 potency with Dark Arts. It's kind of annoying that our ultimate attack doesn't even hit as hard as a Warrior's level 54 skill.

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Is it that weird?
Ninja 60 skill is a 3 fold attack, and it actually does hit 3 times but it's only 100 potency each hit.
Just 300 potency total, but like Carve and Split it's off the GCD.
It doesn't have anything special about it and has a 90s Recast.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be better, maybe potency wise or with some effect.
Would be nice if it was more signature, but I don't think it's a huge deal that a 60 skill is just another skill.
I'm really against rotational changes (instead of just adding on) from the last ability, like Dragon Kick was for MNK at 50.

My only real problem with Carve and Spit is that it is almost never in your best interest to use the MP restore. Using DA + CAS is a +350 potency gain - that's worth almost 3 DAs of bonus damage for Soul Eater.

Conversely, the mana restore is only worth 50% of a single DA. The only time it should ever be used for the MP restore is in a dire emergency (i.e. you don't have enough MP to turn on Grit, or you will drop Darkside if you don't) which you should have planned better for in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

My only real problem with Carve and Spit is that it is almost never in your best interest to use the MP restore. Using DA + CAS is a +350 potency gain - that's worth almost 3 DAs of bonus damage for Soul Eater.

Conversely, the mana restore is only worth 50% of a single DA. The only time it should ever be used for the MP restore is in a dire emergency (i.e. you don't have enough MP to turn on Grit, or you will drop Darkside if you don't) which you should have planned better for in the first place.

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AoE after blood price has ended, mana is better spent on AoE damage, so it makes more sense to use carve for mana regen here.

On hunts you usually want to maximize threat in a short period of time to make sure you get full contribution. Use carve for mana regen to spend on DA + Powerslash.

Extended fights with no down time and you're out of TP and running low (ish) on MP. It's better to restore mana to use on unmends, free unleashes & dark passenger (almost positive these are the highest damage/mana spent moves we have).

And then there's the fact that not every run is going to go perfectly and if you find yourself running low, it's better to regen via carve than to flip off Darkside for a while.

But that's why I like the ability, standard usage is going to use dark arts with it, but the secondary function of the ability is there if we need it.

1. Assuming 3+ targets, yes. This is a valid use for CAS if Dark Passenger is up. It doesn't actually refund enough MP to even give you an additional Abyssal Drain, but if you're low enough that you can't get a DA and it would give you enough MP for a Drain this is an OK use (Though not a large gain given the opportunity cost).

2. lol, hunts.

3. It's still almost certainly a net loss to use Carve and spit for MP in that situation. You should be calling for goad / TP song well before that point.

4. I mentioned this aspect in my post, but it's still a result of player error. But yes, it can marginally (potentially) help to partially make up for some mistakes. Or you could not make the mistake in the first place and get the full benefit of Carve and Spit. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The concept of the ability is fine, and it has the potential to be a useful part of the Dark Knight kit. I like it too. But let's not delude ourselves - it needs to restore more MP than it does currently to fulfil that role.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

1. Assuming 3+ targets, yes. This is a valid use for CAS if Dark Passenger is up. It doesn't actually refund enough MP to even give you an additional Abyssal Drain, but if you're low enough that you can't get a DA and it would give you enough MP for a Drain this is an OK use (Though not a large gain given the opportunity cost).

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Doesn't matter what it restores. Getting the full damage requires a DA, and not using the DA on carve is going to give you another drain or unleash or 2. Since we're talking about a mana limited situation after blood price has expired, you'll get more damage off of extra drains/unleashes.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

3. It's still almost certainly a net loss to use Carve and spit for MP in that situation. You should be calling for goad / TP song well before that point.

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I don't know exact #s but unmend is like 1/3 or 1/4 the cost of DA? For carve you're spending 1.5 DA casts worth of mana for 350 potency. For that amount of mana, you could instead be doing something like 4-6? unmend casts at 120 potency. That's worth maybe 3 dark passengers? So if for some reason you're out of TP and don't have access to Goad or TP song (pug?) then this should be your best option.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

The concept of the ability is fine, and it has the potential to be a useful part of the Dark Knight kit. I like it too. But let's not delude ourselves - it needs to restore more MP than it does currently to fulfil that role.

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I mean, I wouldn't say no to more MP. I'm just saying it does have some uses, even in its current form.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Doesn't matter what it restores. Getting the full damage requires a DA, and not using the DA on carve is going to give you another drain or unleash or 2. Since we're talking about a mana limited situation after blood price has expired, you'll get more damage off of extra drains/unleashes.

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It absolutely does matter how much it restores. Using CAS for MP specifically WON'T give you the mana do another drain. It will get you a single unleashed, but you would need 5+ targets for it to overcome using DA + CAS.

You're also ignoring the opportunity cost in using those GCDs vs using them for a different attack.
1. Abyssal Drain is 972 MP and does 120 potency per target in damage.
2. Dark Arts is 1768 MP and adds 350 potency to Carve and Spit.
3. Carve and Spit, without Dark Arts, Does 100 potency in damage and restores 884 mana.

Let's assume that you're fighting against 3 enemies. You currently have enough mana to cast a single Abyssal Drain and still maintain Darkside, so you have 1500 MP or so. You use Carve and Spit and it gives you enough mana for a second Abyssal Drain. So you do the following:
1. You use Carve and Spit (oGCD) and do 100 potency of damage as well as gaining 884 mana.
2. You use Abyssal Drain for 120 potency per target, so 360. (1st GCD).
3. You use Abyssal Drain for 120 potency per target again, another 360 (2nd GCD).
Total: 820 potency over 5 seconds.


Same scenario with three enemies. You instead decide to go for a syphon strike to get enough mana to Dark Arts your Carve and Spit and forgo AoE entirely.
1. You use Hard Slash: 150 potency. (1st GCD)
2. You use Syphon Strike: 250 potency and + 884 mana. (2nd GCD)
3. You use DA + Carve and spit: 450 potency (Off GCD).
Total: 850 potency over 5 seconds.

So not only do you come out ahead by 30 potency, you're ALSO ahead by 176 MP.

It takes 4+ targets for Abyssal Drain to pull ahead and make using Carve and Spit for MP worthwhile. This is not a situation that comes up often in the raiding environment.

But sure, it does happen occasionally:
1. Some waves of Turn 4.
2. Turn 5 if you gather all the snakes up and kill them together.
3. For a short period of time in turn 12 before the first Bennu dies after they've resurrected, assuming you tank them all in the same spot.
4. Shiva adds in Phase 1.
5. Alexander Floor 2 on some waves.

These are the only situations in relevant content where you might use Carve and Spit for MP. Five out of 30 raid encounters + EX primals. Some of these situations don't even come up any more (You won't get 4+ Bennu unless something is seriously wrong, snakes in T5 will likely die before you have all 5 together no matter what).

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I don't know exact #s but unmend is like 1/3 or 1/4 the cost of DA? For carve you're spending 1.5 DA casts worth of mana for 350 potency. For that amount of mana, you could instead be doing something like 4-6? unmend casts at 120 potency. That's worth maybe 3 dark passengers? So if for some reason you're out of TP and don't have access to Goad or TP song (pug?) then this should be your best option.

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Once again, you're ignoring the opportunity cost here. This isn't a gain over waiting for your TP to restore so you can do your single target combo. TP is regenerated every 3 seconds, so Unmend would have to do more than 190 potency in order to overcome this [226 (average potency per GCD from a Delirium combo) - 36 (The amount of average combo potency lost by waiting an additional .5 seconds per attack)]. You can also be gaining MP from Siphon Strike during this time. Even if you went for multiple rotations like this and delayed Carve and Spit in order to have enough mana to use DA on it, you would come out ahead over using it to restore MP and spam Unmend / Unleashed.

Carve and Spit

Pros:
Restores mana
Has high potency when used in conjunction with Dark Arts
Off global cooldown
Sweet visuals

Cons:
The amount of mana returned is abysmal for a 1 min cooldown. It returns roughly around 860 to 900 mana
Base potency is 100 potency
It takes 1700+ mana to DA+C&S

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

It absolutely does matter how much it restores. Using CAS for MP specifically WON'T give you the mana do another drain. It will get you a single unleashed, but you would need 5+ targets for it to overcome using DA + CAS...

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I'll take another look at this when I've got more time. You're probably right here, but I'd want to think about this a little more.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

Once again, you're ignoring the opportunity cost here. This isn't a gain over waiting for your TP to restore so you can do your single target combo. TP is regenerated every 3 seconds, so Unmend would have to do more than 190 potency in order to overcome this [226 (average potency per GCD from a Delirium combo) - 36 (The amount of average combo potency lost by waiting an additional .5 seconds per attack)]. You can also be gaining MP from Siphon Strike during this time. Even if you went for multiple rotations like this and delayed Carve and Spit in order to have enough mana to use DA on it, you would come out ahead over using it to restore MP and spam Unmend / Unleashed.

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But you're looking at this wrong. If you use an unmend, then you don't have to wait .5seconds for the next set of attacks. Let's say you've got enough TP, with regen, that you can execute 5 attacks over the next 6 GCD. Now, you can either wait for TP to regen and only execute 5 attacks OR you lead with unmend and you then get unmend + 5 TP based attacks. Since you're TP starved and can't execute any more normal attacks, the unmend becomes "free", at least in terms of time spent on the attack, since it doesn't hinder your already slowed method of normal GCD attack execution. At this point the only consideration is mana. If you're also running low on mana, you have to prioritize, and for damage done / mana spent, unmend and free unleashes win.

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Originally Posted by Jayjohn

Carve and Spit
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the name is also kind of silly

The MP return amount is the same as Syphon. IE half the cost of Dark Arts.

Foregoing a DrkArt buff CnS for the MP regain - in 99.99% of situations - is a poor move.

DrkArt buffed CnS +350 potency.
DrkArt buffed SE +140 potency
DrkArt buffed Passenger +100 potency
DrkArt buffed AD +0 potency

And again CnS unbuffed is only refueling half the MP cost - so it's not giving you a 'free' Dark Arts until the second (2minutes) - and you sacrificed 700 potency to get it.

.. and 700 potency lost is very sad when all you're getting for it is an extra +100,+140,HP drain, or weak enmity mod, etc..

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Originally Posted by Rover1983

Not saying its useless, just saying it was implemented in an odd way. No ties to any abilities, off GCD(Which is welcome) but it just seems like a "random" ability for the lvl 60 skill.

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Na not ye, that was more aimed at the OP. But yeah CAS is a very handy skill that true dose not have a specif time to use it, it is one of those skills that you should use as soon as it's back up, the more time you leave it the the less MP you'll regain over time.

I find it horrifyingly underwhelming for our lvl 60 milestone (currently capstone) ability, but it has its uses. I kinda wish other abilities in our kit were more like it relative to Dark Arts, where it isn't a buff, it's a function change. Think it would've made our overall kit more interesting. (assuming said functions were worth the MP cost of DA, ofc). I also kinda wish that it gave more MP than Syphon, then using DA on it would feel like a more meaningful choice. As it is, I generally don't need it for MP regen I'm usually in a good place MP wise when it comes off CD so damage all the way.

What would make this ability complete is to keep the 100 potency and add the three hits to the ability. keep the mp regen with each hit for a substantial mp gain. And for the DA ability keep the ability the same but just adding the three hits without having the ability to crit

Honestly it should be three different attacks for 90 potency each, each restoring mana with no Dark Art thing.

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Originally Posted by Rhaja

Just a bunch of damage off the GCD, or a way to get back some MP.

Welcome to the complete kit of DRK, where we have a bunch of stuff that just doesn't seem to have a common theme.

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the theme is edgy, cool darkness

/HairFlip

Warrior's lvl 60 ability isn't great and Paladin is only great in the context of "PLD has no damage combo". C&S should probably return more mana but conceptually the idea of having an OGC ability that you can choose to use as either a mana battery or the highest potency attack that DRK has seems fine to me.

I don't see the problem here? It's 100 pot off the gcd. It costs nothing, does damage, gives mp, and doesn't even cockblock a gcd. That's like asking what's the point of drgs jump. It's a off gcd attack that does damage. What's the point of spirits within? (Nothing of value can be silenced anymore anyway).

Pros and cons? Really?

Pro: it does all the stuff I said.
con: nothing because it's a free instant ability that does beneficial stuff with no downside.

It's a move that costs litterally nothing, gives mp, does damage, and has the option to be paired with DA to become the highest instant damage ability in the game. Wtf are you people moaning about?

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Originally Posted by Dererk

I'd rather have another defensive CD

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Then job change to Paladin.

Carve and Split is a good oGCD.

Being physical, it works with blood weapon, and bloodlust
Carve is a free siphon strike.

DACarve is for raw damage, a little higher than DASouleater that again, doesn't require a combo.
So you can use it to get mp back, or kick in that extra 4 digit damage.

As an aside, it also looks cool, weaving it inbetween siphon and souleater makes it look like a shoryureppa.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Honestly it should be three different attacks for 90 potency each, each restoring mana with no Dark Art thing.

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I'd honestly rather it stay the same than be a carbon copy of dream within a dream. We'd be better off getting Blood Weapon usable with Grit than trying to turn Carve and Spit into a permanent MP battery move. Honestly I'd rather see the MP regeneration replaced with TP regeneration altogether. Its tiring having to spam Unmend when I run out of TP.

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well it helps you put out more damage and gives you a tool for mp management

but i wouldn't disagree that it is a pretty underwhelming level 60 skill. i thought it would at least have a really cool animation.

It's underwhelming in terms of hype, but it's a good ability. At level 50, capstone abilities tended to have a larger "wow" factor and were often huge parts of the class's kit (Lustrate for SCH, Perfect Balance/Dragon Kick for MNK, Trick Attack/Kassatsu for NIN, etc etc). Comparatively, a number of the level 60 abilities are fairly unexciting, and Carve and Spit is one of those (so is Dream within a Dream).

The primary purpose is to look good while doing little.

Carve and Spit is fantastic with DA OCD it does great damage and when you're doing AOE pulls with Unleash or AD it's an instant 900 mp. Great skill.

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Originally Posted by Disc

Then job change to Paladin.

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Drk has the same number as paladin so he'd be right where he started. Carve and Spit is rad and should be the model for how other Dark Arts abilities are made.

Just be glad it's not "Dream within a dream" (lvl 60 ninja skill) it's the same base potency with no additional effects lol

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

Just be glad it's not "Dream within a dream" (lvl 60 ninja skill) it's the same base potency with no additional effects lol

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Dream within a Dream hits 3 times, it actually is a "three-fold attack."

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Originally Posted by Hieral

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My sentiments exactly.