Is Selene all that?

While I don't want to point out dps numbers, I'd like to talk about the new Selene design.
First of all, AoE Esuna is great. It doesn't matter how situational is it, when you use it, it works. They merged the two dps buffs of selene into one, this meaning the down times of fight where Selene buff cds could get synched back won't happen anymore. Back on 2.x whenever a boss jumped to do something, most of times when he came back I had to chose either using Fey Glow or Few Light and sometimes I would use the same buff that was active when the boss had jumped, wasting a bit of Selene buffing potential and now she will always buff both dps together, this meaning if you put her on Sic, you'll now waste her buffs a lot.

The skill have been changed but in the end does almost the same thing: a haste-like effect. While I can't say if its better or not with numbers, it feels almost the same and it wasn't a nerf nor a buff, just a revamp. I love Selene even more now.

honestly i never had the problem of setting selene to sic whenever i did it she would rotate her bugs it ws confuseing to me when i got commendations because i "switched the selene buffs so masterfully"...

It wasn't a problem before. I just used her on Obey so I could manually cast embrace and rotate her buffs as I want because I knew sometimes after a downtime some dps would need a buff more than others (when thinking about BLM and MNK on 2.x and sometimes Tanks having to statch aggro). But now she'll try to buff everyone when they can't hit anything if Fey Wind is ready to be cast and even use Fey Caress when you could just cast Leeches on someone and save her ability for later.

I would only put her on Sic if I'm solo healing King Moogle (even more if we're doing undersized) since she'll remove all charmed targets at once if positioned correctly, you included.

[QUOTE=Ghishlain;3124563]I think I'm gonna counter that your math is incomplete.[QUOTE]

Awesome. Great way to put it. I like your math. However, it just sheds more light on Selene's underwhelming buff. If we look at a raw 1.5% haste: On a mob with 1,000,000 HP, that means a party wide addition of 15,000 damage. We scholars can put out way more damage than that. If we look at the numbers you put up for her 30 second buff, we are decreasing cooldowns by 0.35 seconds. As Sidra and Wizarus stated Eos clearly outshines Selene then. On a 4 man dungeon trash pull, we're only getting 1 buff on that pull, thereby not even giving our DPS and Tank an extra skill. But put Eos out there and we can stay in Cleric Stance the whole time, smashing DPS. On a boss, we get 2 pops = .70 decrease on the GCD. Still not a full skill. Again, leave Eos out and broil away. I like Selene, the problem is that her buff really doesn't do much, where as Eos can let us stay in Cleric Stance that much longer.

It comes down to party composition and ability, gear, food, and most importantly the fight itself. I'll keep switching depending on the dungeon/trial/raid but Eos just seems to be the go to now.

Damage is underwhelming, and so far I have had no issues healing in any content in Heavensward. Therefore, Eos' healing buffs are not needed to help heal, but needed to help DPS. Selene can buff party DPS, but her benefits are only seen on a long primal/raid fight.

Another thing about Selene's buffs they buff GCD and auto attacks speed 3% - so with a 50% uptime you'd think it would be 1.5% extra damage. However, dot damage remains the same, as does damage from non GCD skills (Deathflare, Fester, Dragonfire Dive, Sidewinder etc.). So in reality, it's not even 1.5% more damage. Also a reason comparisons with AST people seem to botch - as Balance is truly all inclusive damage.

From 30% with fey light and glow to 3% with fey wind, it seems like a need to me. The novelty wore off when I hit 60. Fey caress is an awesome ability but fairy swamping isn't ideal during endgame healing crunches when you need your MP.

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We scholars can put out way more damage than that.

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I simply cannot understand why you would say Selene is a waste of time when you are clearly concerned about maximizing DPS. The hardest Heal Checks in the game right now are 1) The Vault, 2) Bismarck second phase, 3) Alexander 4.

The only one of those where I have wanted Eos was Bismarck, and that was only because I had an AST in the party; however in that instance I felt as though I was solo-healing and didn't have time to contribute to DPS at all.

In literally every other healing situation in the game, Selene gets the job done. Embrace is still approximately 50% of Physick, and that's more than AST or WHM can lay claim to (Regen comes close, but is slightly weaker and costs MP) With tools like Indomitability and Healing/Deployment Tactics we do not want for AoE healing anymore. Rouse is still an excellent CD to burn when we want our Fairy doing more.

Which means that not only do I get to use all of my SCH DPS options, but that I get to do so while applying Haste to the entire party, and before you say "Eos lets you stay in Cleric's longer, therefore those 3 Broils you miss are > Selene" it's not true. If I have a White Mage with me then I seldom drop Cleric's, if at all. Nearly everything can be solo-healed with ease right now, and for the moments that can't be I usually just toss a Succor out and we're good to go again. As I get better geared I'm even finding that I can spend about half of Bismarck's P2 in Cleric's (Dropping it to help recover from the Tank Busters, and then turning it back on once people are topped up)

TLDR: Why use Eos when you can do all the DEEPS AND carry Selene for even more DEEPS.

^Wouldn't Eos let that WHM even CS themselves after they set up their HoT, and boost the party's DPS way farther than 3% haste buff?

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

^Wouldn't Eos let that WHM even CS themselves after they set up their HoT, and boost the party's DPS way farther than 3% haste buff?

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Fey Covenant has a 2 minute cooldown but it's better used to help yourself and the WHM keep tanks alive in large-damage situations since it's the only way SCH can buff their healing potencies. Whispering Dawn is ok but it's only 2.3 Embraces over the total duration on a minute-long cooldown. It might help the WHM DPS if they stack Medica II and Regen, I guess, but if you're like 5 iLvls above the gear the healers can likely both switch to DPS at points. The difference is Selene raises DPS of the entire party whereas using Eos might only raise the DPS of the WHM.

No she isn't, does she help? Yes.

But is it earth shattering? Oh hell no. I have tried it against Astrologian rigorously and AST buffs are significantly more helpful.

IE: Reduce TP cost on an AOE fight.
IE: Reduce mana cost on a blackmage.
*These two above add A LOT more than just 5% damage buff or 3% faster abilities that Selene does. Allowing an AoE like MCH or DRG to spam their highest TP cost abilities dramatically increases their damage output by even quadruple cause they get so many more abilities off.
IE: The balanced the entire team, is more noticeable than Selene's buff. Or put it on highest current DPS and that I feel is more noticeable. Selene's buff is ignorable on yourself as a healer in any challenging light-party situation and so "party wide" is overrated.
This will only be more pronounced and obvious when astrologian gets the buffs that were proposed in the live letter yesterday.

I am so sick of people saying Scholar is a DPS-healer because of Selene alone. She adds a MARGINAL buff for half the time. It is marginal and far from what everyone is blowing her out to be. I strongly prefer EOS simply for her HoT which allows me to spam 170 potency broil more.



WHM/AST incoming: "But SCH does more dps"
WHM Stone 3: 210 potency
AST: Whatever it is called: 200 potency.
Scholar broil: 170 potency.

"But your Do-"
WHM Aero, and holy which also stuns. I ain't got that.
AST multiple DoTs, Gravity (which doesn't stun mindyou)

I am so sick of the lack of self-awareness of these people. Learn your class, it helps.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

WHM/AST incoming: "But SCH does more dps"
WHM Stone 3: 210 potency
AST: Whatever it is called: 200 potency.
Scholar broil: 170 potency.

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SCHs do though. Unlike other healers, they have access to an OGCD attack for 150 potency, and if healing required is so light that you can get away with DPSing, it's likely to see use.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

"But your Do-"
WHM Aero, and holy which also stuns. I ain't got that.
AST multiple DoTs, Gravity (which doesn't stun mindyou)

I am so sick of the lack of self-awareness of these people. Learn your class, it helps.

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3 dots, 4 with aero.
Bane
Shadowflare

Just saying, SCH AOE being set it and forget it is kind of a big deal too being 135 potency ticks every 3 seconds to the first 4 targets (easy ~1k damage every 3 seconds to each target at decent ilvls), and 80 to the rest without needing to actively commit to chaincasting spells to do real damage.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

SCHs do though. Unlike other healers, they have access to an OGCD attack for 150 potency, and if healing required is so light that you can get away with DPSing, it's likely to see use.



3 dots, 4 with aero.
Bane
Shadowflare

Just saying, SCH AOE being set it and forget it is kind of a big deal too being 135 potency ticks every 3 seconds to the first 4 targets, and 80 to the rest without needing to actively commit to chaincasting spells to do real damage.

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The OGCD ability, as you are aware, is also tied to critical healing spells lustrate and indominability as well as our 10% damage reduction dome... As well as bane which is the ability that you state that we have to access our AOE. So I would hardly consider spamming it for DPS unless I was dealing with garbage. Arguably, if we want to do a particular moveset such as AOE with Bane we will need to deal with the consequence that the rest of our aetherflow skills will be locked behind the 2 remaining.

And yes 3 DoT's and 4 with the weaker version of aero. That is true, absolutely do not disagree. (Aero we can cross-class is 25 potency/tick, WHM updated aero is 50/tick)

But keep in mind all of those are on GCD as well. Miasma, bio... those are all on gcd and bio is the only one (aside from aero) that doesn't require cast time. So while you state that we don't have "without needing to actively commit to chaincasting spells to do real damage" I absolutely disagree.

We need to apply the DoT's, so aero (gcd), bio (gcd), miasma(gcd), bio2 (gcd). So we needed to chain spellcast there, no two ways around that period.

That'd be equivalent to if a WHM spammed stone 3 multiple times. 210 + 210 + 210 + 210 for the equal amount of input as the scholar did to set up their DoT rotation, discluding any broil spam we may add.

So in essense what I am trying to convey is that "set and forget" is an illusion, our damage is over time- this is true, but it most certainly requires a proper rotation and upkeep which is not an ignorable piece of time. "Set up and forget" is an illusion, it's like saying the WHM can ignore the 210 damage because it was "set up and forgotten" because it already took effect.


Am I saying SCH is bad off? Nope, but they are far from taking a dump on the other healing classes with damage output.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

No she isn't, does she help? Yes.

But is it earth shattering? Oh hell no. I have tried it against Astrologian rigorously and AST buffs are significantly more helpful.

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AST buffs can generally only be applied to one person and are up to RNG. Selene is guaranteed AoE buff that is helpful to the entire party whether DPSing or not. Reliability and usability are significant.

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IE: Reduce TP cost on an AOE fight.
IE: Reduce mana cost on a blackmage.

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TP cost reduction relies is RNG and AoE fights are better filled by the casters even counting the TP reduction. MP mana cost reduction does almost nothing for BLM. They have to have reached a PIE threshhold where the 20% reduction in costs actually allows them to fit in another spell in a new rotation, but even then the timing on spells is very strict for keeping up Enochian and doesn't even allow for Thunder procs so it doesn't do a whole lot for BLM at 60. Arrow would do far more but is, again, limited by RNG.

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*These two above add A LOT more than just 5% damage buff

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I don't know where you are getting 5% damage buff from?

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or 3% faster abilities than Selene does.

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Ok, show some math for this?

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Allowing an AoE like MCH or DRG to spam their highest TP cost abilities dramatically increases their damage output by even quadruple cause they get so many more abilities off.

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That's flat out wrong. MCH's Grenado shot is useless due to how it selects targets vs. Spread Shot and costs 30 TP extra for 20 more damage making it much less efficient. Even with a 20% cost in TP, MCH will get 2-3 extra Spread Shots if he has the TP reduction the entire AoE phase and if you managed to have pulled a Spire at that phase. That also only increased the AoE damage of the MCH. Balance should be used on whoever has the highest DPS on the team because it's a %-based buff, and that's not going to be MCH if you have a SMN/BLM in the party. Selene buffs all targets without discrimination meaning A. you don't have to choose who gets the buff and B. everyone gets a piece of the pie

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IE: The balanced the entire team

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Balance affects mainly the DPS and to a lesser extent the tanks and the healers, but only if the healers are in CS and damaging at that point.

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is more noticeable than Selene's buff.

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Noticeable yes. If it's actually better or not, hard to say without math that you aren't providing.

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Or put it on highest current DPS and that I feel is more noticeable.

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Ok, that's great that it feels more noticeable. But whether or not it actually increases DPS by more than Selene is up-in-the-air since you aren't actually providing math to back up your claims.

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This will only be more pronounced and obvious when astrologian gets the buffs that were proposed in the live letter yesterday.

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If you say so bubs. We don't know what the changes are. Also you missed the entire point which is Eos vs. Selene and not Selene vs. bringing an AST. You can use Selene and still bring an AST to give you all those buffs you crave.

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I am so sick of people saying Scholar is a DPS-healer because of Selene alone.

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Nobody said that. Having damage buffs doesn't make you a DPS healer. Having a bunch of DoTs that don't check accuracy and the ability to AoE DoT makes you one, since prior to 3.0 WHM couldn't DPS in raids.

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I strongly prefer EOS simply for her HoT which allows me to spam 170 potency broil more.

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Cool, can we have math on this claim?

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WHM/AST incoming: "But SCH does more dps"

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Accuracy-less, AST does about the same as SCH but lacks the fall-back abilities to cleric stance and DPS safely.

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*snip*

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Snipped this part because see the quote after this one.

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Selene's buff is ignorable on yourself as a healer in any challenging light-party situation and so "party wide" is overrated.
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I am so sick of the lack of self-awareness of these people. Learn your class, it helps.

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Irony.

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She adds a MARGINAL buff for half the time. It is marginal and far from what everyone is blowing her out to be.

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Delicious irony. You could heal any current content completely without your fairy. In end-game progression raids, stacking up these marginal benefits is what clears content. Not relying on RNG card buffs. So if you think a marginal buff is shit just because you personally don't see its effect you need to gain "self-awareness" and "learn your class" because it will help you play better.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

^Wouldn't Eos let that WHM even CS themselves after they set up their HoT, and boost the party's DPS way farther than 3% haste buff?

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No for two reasons:

1. In general, if I don't feel comfortable DPSing as a WHM, a 20% boost to my Regen + Whispering Dawn isn't going to magically turn me into DPS bot. If I do feel comfortable DPSing, a 20% boost to my Regen + Whispering Dawn isn't going to keep me in Cleric's any longer than I otherwise would have.

2. WHM can miss. DPS and OT likely cannot.

One more thing.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

No she isn't, does she help? Yes.

But is it earth shattering? Oh hell no. I have tried it against Astrologian rigorously and AST buffs are significantly more helpful.

IE: Reduce TP cost on an AOE fight.
IE: Reduce mana cost on a blackmage.
*These two above add A LOT more than just 5% damage buff or 3% faster abilities that Selene does. Allowing an AoE like MCH or DRG to spam their highest TP cost abilities dramatically increases their damage output by even quadruple cause they get so many more abilities off.
IE: The balanced the entire team, is more noticeable than Selene's buff. Or put it on highest current DPS and that I feel is more noticeable. Selene's buff is ignorable on yourself as a healer in any challenging light-party situation and so "party wide" is overrated.

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AST buffs have the problem of consistency and uptime. Ideally you want expanded royal road balance/arrow in 8 mans, but:

1 - RNG
2 - Takes at least 2 draws to do that
3 - lasts 15 seconds

That is why most will say selene > AST buffs.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

This will only be more pronounced and obvious when astrologian gets the buffs that were proposed in the live letter yesterday.

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We'll see, because they need them.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

WHM/AST incoming: "But SCH does more dps"
WHM Stone 3: 210 potency
AST: Whatever it is called: 200 potency.
Scholar broil: 170 potency.

"But your Do-"
WHM Aero, and holy which also stuns. I ain't got that.
AST multiple DoTs, Gravity (which doesn't stun mindyou)

I am so sick of the lack of self-awareness of these people. Learn your class, it helps.

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Missed Stones/Aeros/Holies do zero potency. When's the last time you missed a Bio? When's the last time a missed Holy stunned something?

Yeah, if you put me in Vault and have me DPS fight a SCH, I'll likely win. That probably won't be the same come Alexander Savage.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

So in essense what I am trying to convey is that "set and forget" is an illusion, our damage is over time- this is true, but it most certainly requires a proper rotation and upkeep which is not an ignorable piece of time. "Set up and forget" is an illusion, it's like saying the WHM can ignore the 210 damage because it was "set up and forgotten" because it already took effect.

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Don't take the expression too literal.

What I'm saying is the SCH can put out 1120 potency worth of damage in 4 spells to the first target, + bane to 3 targets that may miss out on a few ticks, and a bit more than half that to the rest without actual upkeep. This is before you even decide to spam broil. That's just the first round of DOTs, and they can be left to expire.

Also, we really, REALLY need to stop acting like Selene's buff is even close to being as bad as AST's random chance to give the party a 5% speed boost for 15 seconds once per minute.

You could literally double or triple the effect of AST's buffs and the RNG STILL makes it not worthwhile because of how unreliable it is.

you say selene buff doesnt matter because its too small, but mathematically it is better than AST cards, so what does that make the card mechanic the AST is build around?

Just an aside, since this is a Selene thread.

Take two SCH. with Selenes. One on sic, one on obey. After the first Selene automatically casts Fey Wind when combat starts, wait 30s and set your Selene to sic.
Now you have two Selenes alternating Fey Wind for more or less 100% up time (give or take a second or so due to latency).

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Originally Posted by Phenidate

Just an aside, since this is a Selene thread.

Take two SCH. with Selenes. One on sic, one on obey. After the first Selene automatically casts Fey Wind when combat starts, wait 30s and set your Selene to sic.
Now you have two Selenes alternating Fey Wind for more or less 100% up time (give or take a second or so due to latency).

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Or simply have two SCHs using Obey as is optimal for fairy HPS and timely AoE cleansing. It's not difficult to time Fey Wind, and manual Embrace is still too good to pass up.