Primal confusion - spoilers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I'm thinking that if the Warring Triad and Dark Divinity are "eikons" as Unukalhai has suggested, then perhaps the Twelve and the elementals are eikons as well.

---

the twelve are more like "partially summoned" primals as i cant rem where but i rem someone saying that the 12 that us mortals created come at great cost to hydalen (if thats how you spell it).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Primals look like whatever their summoner(s) want them to. Shiva the primal, for instance, looks nothing like the real Saint Shiva; she just looks like what Ysayle imagined she would. Works the same for every primal.

---

But wouldn't the Ixal think their savior would look more like them? Or the Gnath?
Shiva at least looks like a hyper-stylized Elezen, which Shiva was.

Another question I have is how Odin/Zantensuken came to be. Did people pray for a weapon?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragoelete

the twelve are more like "partially summoned" primals as i cant rem where but i rem someone saying that the 12 that us mortals created come at great cost to hydalen (if thats how you spell it).

---

Close, Hydaelyn.

And it's not the Twelve themselves, but Primals as a whole. If the Twelve were summoned as Primals, then, yes, they would tax Hydaelyn greatly, but us just worshiping gods without summoning them does nothing to harm her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mimilu

But wouldn't the Ixal think their savior would look more like them? Or the Gnath?
Shiva at least looks like a hyper-stylized Elezen, which Shiva was.

Another question I have is how Odin/Zantensuken came to be. Did people pray for a weapon?

---

Not necessarily. When people imagine a savior, or hero, or champion, they imagine someone or something larger than life. Myth is also a common basis for a primal: see Ramuh, "the Sage in the Wood." The people imagine up whatever they want the primal to be, Ravana as a conquering warlord for the Gnath, for instance, and create a larger-than-life image. They're supposedly gods; would you earnestly expect a god or goddess to look like a normal person (unless they wanted to)?

As an eikon, we don't really know much about Odin yet. Supposedly he got the Zantetsuken from an Auri warrior, the first to nick his armor, but besides that and what's learned after defeating his trial (that Odin is just a puppet of the sword, which mind-slaves the last person to kill him and turns them into a new Odin) we don't know anything.

Just a reminder, one of the ARR quests especifically involves stopping Ala Mighan youth from summoning a Rhalgr primal as they were told by Ascians. Meaning, we COULD have an image of the Twelve around, but it wouldn't be THE "eikon" (if that's what they are) Rhalgr.

Also, given that we have Phoenix Down items, it's likely that there used to be phoenixes (phoenix?) in Eorzea, so Lousioux turning himself into "A symbol of Rebirth" could have brought the Phoenix imagery and shaped him as such (hope I'm making sense...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Just a reminder, one of the ARR quests especifically involves stopping Ala Mighan youth from summoning a Rhalgr primal as they were told by Ascians. Meaning, we COULD have an image of the Twelve around, but it wouldn't be THE "eikon" (if that's what they are) Rhalgr.

Also, given that we have Phoenix Down items, it's likely that there used to be phoenixes (phoenix?) in Eorzea, so Lousioux turning himself into "A symbol of Rebirth" could have brought the Phoenix imagery and shaped him as such (hope I'm making sense...)

---

It's mentioned that "Phoenix Downs" are actually only alchemical mixtures spread over a painted feather. They're pretty much fakes, but worth it to the greater part of the citizenry because they can bring the recently dead back to full life. And Louisoix mentions he took on the form of the "mythical Phoenix." Phoenixes in Hydaelyn, as far as we've been told by NPCs, are just mythical creatures, with no actual fact behind them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

It's mentioned that "Phoenix Downs" are actually only alchemical mixtures spread over a painted feather. They're pretty much fakes, but worth it to the greater part of the citizenry because they can bring the recently dead back to full life. And Louisoix mentions he took on the form of the "mythical Phoenix." Phoenixes in Hydaelyn, as far as we've been told by NPCs, are just mythical creatures, with no actual fact behind them.

---

Fair warning, that may end up being one of my crackpot theories that never came up again, lol. Between the complete absence of phoenixes, Louisoix becoming one and calling it legendary, and the fact that NPCs are handing out feathers like candy, yeah, I'm inclined to believe they're alchemically-treated like Icarus and Regain feathers. However, the latter two admit their nature, while Phoenix Down does not - it only lampshades an ongoing joke about the translation of Phoenix Tailfeather (JP) to Phoenix Down (EN) in the old days. It may, however unlikely based on current information, be the case that phoenixes are plentiful somewhere.

How a primal is truly born? I think this is the main question. The Scions and the WoL are slowly learning what a Primal truly is, the main confusion about it all is that the ritual of summoning a primal already know and is common knowloedge to the Scions. However, thats a method the Ascians have been teaching to some men and beasts I don't think we can state that we know how it truly works and bit by bit that's being revealed to us. On Heavensward we discovered some more about primals and since 2.4 we're noting that the ritual of summoning that we knew it was possible can also take innumerous forms and the one we assumed as the only one was just a method the Ascians were using to teaching to the beast tribes an easy way to summon their gods and looks like they know the truth behind all of these summons.

Maybe something was lost during the 1.0 to 2.0 transition, leaving us with some inconsistencies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

To complicate matters, Thordan and the Twelve Knights wear Primal forms of themselves, so essentially tempering themselves to an idealized image of themselves, mostly leaving them mentally the same, but overall leaving them even more devoted to the Archbishop, their Godking.

---

Thordan VII and the Heaven's Ward take the form of Thordan I and his Twelve Knights (the ones with the statues lining the main thoroughfare in The Pillars) when they go into Primal form.

As far as we know, it's the same kind of transformation that Ysayle undergoes when she becomes Shiva; there seems to be some element of the summoner's will (though we don't know how much) directing how the resulting entity acts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ibi

Thordan VII and the Heaven's Ward take the form of Thordan I and his Twelve Knights (the ones with the statues lining the main thoroughfare in The Pillars) when they go into Primal form.

As far as we know, it's the same kind of transformation that Ysayle undergoes when she becomes Shiva; there seems to be some element of the summoner's will (though we don't know how much) directing how the resulting entity acts.

---

It would be, if they didn't keep their own names when they transformed. Iceheart becomes Shiva, but the knights keep their own names when they transform. Whether that's an example of the knights taking the names of the original twelve, or if their primal forms take their own names, I don't know if we know. I used the latter as my reasoning toward my decision that they are idealized forms of themselves, since they keep their own names they may very well simply be the same mind as the original host (the knight from today), just warped to an idealized form as a Primal.

Letting down the walls of one's soul and channeling a greater power than said person would naturally possess -- it's all exactly the same, from Iceheart to the Knights Twelve. I even believe the Asican's use this method of summoning when entering their "battle stance" (glyph). This is the true power of the echo. ...Aside from immortality, of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

It would be, if they didn't keep their own names when they transformed. Iceheart becomes Shiva, but the knights keep their own names when they transform. Whether that's an example of the knights taking the names of the original twelve, or if their primal forms take their own names, I don't know if we know. I used the latter as my reasoning toward my decision that they are idealized forms of themselves, since they keep their own names they may very well simply be the same mind as the original host (the knight from today), just warped to an idealized form as a Primal.

---

It's my belief that the distinction here is simply a matter of what the summoner chooses to refer to themselves as after their transformation. Ysayle calls herself Shiva when she summons her perceived "Shiva-Power", whereas the Knights view it as simply summoning those guys' power to use as themselves however they wish. The game has always worked like this -- until someone or thing tells us what to call a person, they are known as "???". So, if some NPC named Steve changes outfits, puts on costume or summons primal power into himself and tells us to call him Jeffery now, cause he's "different", we will call him Jeffery until he returns to Steve form. But if he were to do the same thing, yet still refer to himself as Steve... Make sense?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treuhavik

-snip-

---

I agree your point makes sense, but I do still believe otherwise. Which I think is fine, unless the devs come in and tell us one way or another.

I don't see why the distinction would matter since it was explicitly stated that Iceheart had full control of Shiva's form.
Them keeping their names would only imply the same more implicitly.

So I just completed Ravanant EX and I got access to the dialogue about the warring triad in the french version and, as I suspected, no mention of Eikon. Here is what is said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WoL

Que sont les divinités guerrière ?

---

What are the warring Divinities ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unukalhai

Les divinités guerrières... Derrière ce nom mystérieux se cachent les primordiaux sous le nom que leur avaient donné les allagois.

---

The warring divinities... Behind that mysterious name are hidden Primals whose name were given by the allagans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unukalhai

Ils obéissent à d'autres règles d'espace-temps que les Primordiaux que nous connaissons mieux. Nous ne connaissons pas la manière par laquelle ils sont invoqués, ni les raisons de leur arrivée dans notre monde. Tout cela reste enveloppé de mystère...

---

They obey to different rules of space and time unlike others Primals that we know better. We don't know how they were summoned, neither the reasons of their coming to our world. All this is shrouded in mystery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unukalhai

Vous avez peut être déjà croisé Odin, le Chevalier des ténèbres qui rôde dans la forêt de sombrelinceul. Certains pensent qu'autrefois, d'autres divinités guerrières telles que lui erraient sur ces terres.

---

You might have came accross Odin, the knight of darkness wandering in the black shroud. Some thinks that once, other warring divinities like himself wandered these lands.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unukalhai

Parmi elles, les plus puissantes sont sans conteste celles qui font partie de la Triade guerrière. Dans leur grande sagesse, les Allagois ont utilisé leur énergie pour donner de la force motrice à Azys Lla, le continent flottant.

---

Amongs them the strongest are without a doubt the member of the Warring Triad. In their great wisdom, the Allagans used their energy to give it's power to Azys Lla, the floating continent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unukalhai

Vous imaginez donc l'étendue de leur puissance... Leur éveil, s'il advient, sera synonyme de fin du monde.

---

You imagine then how powerfull they are... Their awakening, if it comes, will be the end of the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unukalhai

C'est une perspective bien sombre, mais vous êtes le Guerrier de
la Lumière n'est-ce pas ? Héhéhé.

---

This is a dark omen but you are the Warrior of Light aren't you ? hehehe

So according to this version Eikon are Warring divinities, and possibly came from other worlds and not summoned ( well not the same way other were summoned, classic summoning seems to create the primal while maybe the warring divinites were called ), could they be true gods ? Ironically the word Eikon would then mean false god to Garleans.

IIiiiiiiiiinteresting. So Eikons, or Warring Divinities (maybe they're all gods of war/battle?), do seem to have an existence that defies the rules of this world, and if the idea of Unulkalai being Elidibus is factored in, then perhaps the Eikons are a danger not just to his plans, but to the nature of reality (or even just Hydaelyn) by merit of their existence.

I still don't understand what exactly Archon's are. Also is Hydalean the planet itself? Like mother earth? Or God himself (or in this case herself?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

I still don't understand what exactly Archon's are.

---

The meaning behind "Archon" is still ambiguous. It's both a designation given to those of eras past who came forth on the eve of each calamity, bearing the echo, to warn humanity of the impending doom, AND, more recently, a title for members of the circle of knowing. I suppose the common connection between the two groups is that they both make an effort to thwart calamities, so we'll just go with that -- Archon = Calamity Forestaller.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

Also is Hydalean the planet itself? Like mother earth? Or God himself (or in this case herself?)

---

Hydaelyn is both the name for the planet and the name of the Mothercrystal. Anything beyond that, including whether or not they're one in the same, we don't yet have proof for.

Hydaelyn the planet and the Hydaelyn the Mothercrystal are not the same. Hydaelyn the Mothercrystal is the creator of light that made the world we live in and created the Twelve and Eikon. Also Primals drain the planet and not Hydaelyn herself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiza

Hydaelyn the planet and the Hydaelyn the Mothercrystal are not the same. Hydaelyn the Mothercrystal is the creator of light that made the world we live in and created the Twelve and Eikon.

---

As much as I hate to further this digression, if you're going to claim that the Mothercrystal is the creator of light, the planet, The Twelve and all eikons/primals, I'd very much like to see your proof...

You should consider beginning your conjectures with "I think...", at the very least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiza

Also Primals drain the planet and not Hydaelyn herself.

---

The Ascians might disagree with that statement also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

I still don't understand what exactly Archon's are. Also is Hydalean the planet itself? Like mother earth? Or God himself (or in this case herself?)

---

Archons are the names given to individuals who are supposed to represent the Twelve on Hydaelyn. The image of Rhalgr as a large Roegadyn with a staff is actual a representation of one of the old Archons from an age passed.

As for is Hydaelyn the planet itself, the short of it is yes. She is "All Made One," generally referring to all life on the planet. She is the great flow of aether that breathes life into everything, as well as the point to which all aether returns when a life ends. She may not be the creator of the universe, because I don't think we know enough about the origin of the universe as a whole to say that, but she is our Mother, the progenitor of our souls.

She is not, however, the progenitor of the Eikons. We are told they came from other worlds, so they cannot be among her children as we are. Primals, however, are more like parasites. Mankind makes them, but they feed off of her aether and weaken her.

Quote:

---

An ancient race of progenitor aliens termed the First Ancestral Race seeded life throughout the galaxy billions of years ago by spreading beings known as Seeds of Life to several worlds. Hydaelin landed on Hydaelin an unknown duration following Zodiark's arrival, and courtesy of Zodiark's own Spear of Longinus was able to usurp the rival Seed. Hydaelin spread primordial aether - actually, Hydaelyn's own blood -, into the primitive ocean, which eventually evolved into the first single-celled life on Hydaelin and ultimately, through some form of (implied) guided evolution, Non-lalas. Thus Hydaelin is the direct progenitor of all non-lalas.
Non-Lalas received from Hydaelin the "Fruit of Knowledge", as opposed to the Lalas who benefited from the "Fruit of Life", (the Heart of Sabik, the source of their evil power and perverse deviance). Non-Lalas and Lalas are regarded as incompatible, although the Non-lalas are no more "alien" to Hydaelin than are Lalas.

---

Sounds about right to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toranja

Sounds about right to me.

---

Lol, despite it being a joke post. I did kinda get a Rebirth of Evangelion vibe going on, especially that moon scene.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

Lol, despite it being a joke post. I did kinda get a Rebirth of Evangelion vibe going on, especially that moon scene.

---

It reminded me of Kaworu coming down from the Moon to put a stop to the Third Impact at the end of Rebuild 2.0.

So eikons are from another world?

Iiiiiiiiinteresting.........

So is Midgardsormr, possibly.

And most of the Ascians, supposedly. (Just keepin' the train goin'.)

Don't forget the Voidsent.

Yes, Midgardsormr is from another world. He brought with him 7 seven eggs to this star (the Great Wyrms).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

So eikons are from another world?

Iiiiiiiiinteresting.........

---

Feymarch from IV. >w>