Bards viability now?

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Why are people thinking that a SUPPORT class is supposed to be doing damage on par with a DPS class.


BRD/MCH are SUPPORT classes.

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WRONG. BRD is a DPS class. There are no SUPPORT classes in FFXIV. TANK, HEALER, DPS.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

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I see, well it makes sense but we also need to consider what they think is a large increase. They probably don't want bard over other DPS but it doesn't mean that bard will remain under tanks either. One thing I will say is that since 2.0 bard has never ever been intended for top dps anyways so I'm not entirely surprised with yoshi's response.

When raids came in bards were still effectively one of the most needed jobs because of their necessity in the supporter field. I don't think bard will ever reach the ranks of other dps's as long as it's a utility playstyle job so hopefully SE just adjust them vs tank dps along with WM tweaks.

machinist is a job I feel should be above bard though, I'd personally prefer instead of them to have a similar effect of foes on their machine to replace tp or mp and maybe something to replace the leftover one too while being slightly stronger than bard in dps. bard would then still be useful as a utility member but not the only mobile class anymore either. It feels like as long as machinist has tp/mp abilities along with some bard similarities, SE will need to be careful with how it grows so it never over balances bard entirely though it may just be me. :/

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

It's very easy to notice the mp difference between Ballad and Foe/Paeon, so yes, Ballad does restore your mp as well. Paeon also grants you TP back. You've been a Bard on these forums for awhile, I'm honestly surprised you didn't know this. @_@

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Ballad does affect the singer's MP (don't need to be complicated - just read the description on the skill) but it's really moot, because all that means is that the ballad lasts longer as it consumes your MP pool. Paeon does restore your TP but you lose dmg while it's up. It can help extend your AOE time.

On a positive note, one thing that WM does do is improve our AOE. Spamming quick nock with the longer casting time allows for more TP regeneration, while the +20% just covers the dmg lost from the slower cast time.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

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This is all fine and good, except the damage penalty is already BUILT IN to the support skills. I can see no reason for bard to suffer DPS losses when they aren't supporting the party with their songs. When not singing, they are exactly the same as every other DPS class, plus a bit of mobility. The mobility concern is a valid reason to have slightly lower DPS. We can dodge and DPS at the same time. Except WM changes this.

I have no problem with having a bit lower DPS(But staying relevant) because I have more mobility. I am not OK with having the same mobility as a BLM but doing far inferior damage.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Guys, Brd is dead and MCH is a still birth. They can't even put up numbers as good as a WAR. When your DPS class is out damaged by the off tank, there is something wrong. SE's official response indicates that they may make some adjustments such as make WM quicker to apply. Great, now we will stance dance, putting WM on only to use abilities that require it only to take it off immediately thereafter. However, they also say that they will NOT make changes to increase the DPS of brd.

It's dead.

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And who do u think will give tp to melee when they zero out ( or that tp drinking maniac warrior with high dps? ) or mp to healers? Or u planning to wait till alex savage has echo and u are ilvl 220 from lol hunts? Also keep in mind bards can handle mechanics with less impact to their dps.t7,8,12 all say hi.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

And who do u think will give tp to melee when they zero out

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Ninjas! Goad ftw!

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

mp to healers?

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Ballad is great, but all good healers know not to expect or rely on it for the simple fact that there's no guarantee there will even be a bard in the party. This goes double now that we have multiple ways to recover MP.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Whether they are classified in DF as "support" or not is irrelevant. It's semantics. At the end of the day it's a class that does less damage do to the support that it brings to the group. This is factually evident. Square thinks that group tp/mp regen abilities have enough use to create a general demand for the job even though their damage is lower. They are correct. Otherwise no one would bring them at all.

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Bards already lose 15% of their dps from singing, why should they lose 25% more just for being a Bard?

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Ninjas! Goad ftw!Ballad is great, but all good healers know not to expect or rely on it for the simple fact that there's no guarantee there will even be a bard in the party. This goes double now that we have multiple ways to recover MP.

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Funny enough, the perfect way to put it is Bard's are insurance. You fuck up and they can help bail you out, but you gotta pay to keep that insurance going. In this case, it's at the cost of less overall DMG through-out the fight. We can help a little with Requiem come DPS checks, but we have to keep in mind come shit-storms and someone kicks the bucket or Healer's get fucking tunnel vision on covering even that magic pixel on that one tank and we haven't the MP for a Ballad we've fucked over our insurer, lol.

While I do understand the necessity to keep BRD away from top of the potential DPS charts, I don't agree with the outlook of "support" DPS for this game. Why have anything "support" related to be used as a handicap when such a role does not exist? Yoshi-P has literally stated there is no such thing. If it's simply the fact that BRD does damage while having potentially very useful utility, then BRD in FFXI was also "support DPS" thanks to the miniscule dmg dealt through things like Foe Requiem (which was DoT in that game). I'm quite certain no one would agree with that sentiment, yet that's a very similar outlook to it. If BRD are officially looked at as DPS, there is no reason they should be performing so drastically bad in comparison to other DPS, to the same extent that outside roles like tanks can often outdamage them lol (along with outdoing MCH).

Then you have to also consider the "necessity" aspect. The devs add means to classes/jobs to be self-sustainable without the need for a BRD for almost all content. TP regen abilities, MP Refresh, stat buffs, etc are all abilities that jobs already have, some of which affect the party as well. In other words, they're being a "support" role just as much as BRD is (though still not as blatant). The distinguishing gap between what made the BRD a "support DPS" is narrowing the more that time goes on, yet while it does not negatively affect those other jobs, it continues to be an excuse to keep BRD down. It's like the name "Bard" is enough reason to say it should not be able to do a role, and should instead fulfill a role that has been stressed officially to not exist. BRD is essentially hitting an identity crisis.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Whether they are classified in DF as "support" or not is irrelevant. It's semantics. At the end of the day it's a class that does less damage do to the support that it brings to the group. This is factually evident. Square thinks that group tp/mp regen abilities have enough use to create a general demand for the job even though their damage is lower. They are correct. Otherwise no one would bring them at all.

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You missed the point.

4-man content is tuned for two DPS jobs. If the 'support DPS' (note the DPS part, very important) is tuned to be very weak because of that 'support' part, then you are absolutely screwed whenever you get two 'support' jobs instead of two 'dps' jobs. And ain't no one want to deal with THAT junk.

You might ask, 'but T'rahnu, 4-man content is a joke! Why should anyone care about this?', and the answer is very simple: because it kills morale. Taking forever to clear otherwise easy 4-man content just because the two 'support' jobs can't keep up the damage affects players' willingness to run that content, players' willingness to play those jobs, and players' overall enjoyment of the game.

Even EX primals will see those jobs excluded because they're completely unnecessary. I've already seen quite a few melee-only EX parties because nothing else really comes close. When you have that large of a performance disparity, the community responds, and often in very toxic ways. We need to nip that in the bud before it flowers into something far, far worse.

This argument seems to go nowhere everytime it happens but ill try here. The fix for both physical ranged dps should be to have the dmg loss built into there jobs be removed there damage should be on par or very very close to other classes but when there support is needed there penalty should be harsher this would solve there dps issue. yes there support is good but your punishment to dmg should be from using it not the option to use it especially with the slew of amazing support every other class has.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

Bards already lose 15% of their dps from singing, why should they lose 25% more just for being a Bard?

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~*~*~*~this~*~*~*~

at the point other classes are at (battle litany, goad, etc etc etc.) bard/mch taking 2x dps hits doesn't make any sense. they should be doing the same as everyone else outside of songs/promotion.

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Originally Posted by bideogames

~*~*~*~this~*~*~*~

at the point other classes are at (battle litany, goad, etc etc etc.) bard/mch taking 2x dps hits doesn't make any sense. they should be doing the same as everyone else outside of songs/promotion.

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They aren't able to do this because unlike everyone else, when they are out of song/promotion they can move and attack at once at close and long distance melee range. Meaning they can 24/7 keep dps up with the exception of when they need to perform a mechanic.

There is no way SE is going to leave the situation like this. The job is kind of a mess now and some of the new abilities are worthless.

Every expansion in every MMO ever one or more classes gets shafted by Dev's who don't think through things and then the class gets fixed. It's temporary.

I still think we will get taken on raids for MP regen if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

They aren't able to do this because unlike everyone else, when they are out of song/promotion they can move and attack at once at close and long distance melee range. Meaning they can 24/7 keep dps up with the exception of when they need to perform a mechanic.

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This would be a good argument but while WM removes the movement, dps is still far short of every other dps. That's my issue with it.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

They aren't able to do this because unlike everyone else, when they are out of song/promotion they can move and attack at once at close and long distance melee range. Meaning they can 24/7 keep dps up with the exception of when they need to perform a mechanic.

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Not anymore you mean?

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Originally Posted by Lillia

They aren't able to do this because unlike everyone else, when they are out of song/promotion they can move and attack at once at close and long distance melee range. Meaning they can 24/7 keep dps up with the exception of when they need to perform a mechanic.

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except if you're shooting and moving it means you're not using wanderer's/gauss. granted they're bad right now, but if se buffs them (they will) then that means you're taking ~*~three~*~ dps hits. one for not using wanderer/gauss, one for actively supporting, and one for mysterious brd/mch dps tax(?!?!?).

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Originally Posted by Bluejay

There is no way SE is going to leave the situation like this. The job is kind of a mess now and some of the new abilities are worthless.

Every expansion in every MMO ever one or more classes gets shafted by Dev's who don't think through things and then the class gets fixed. It's temporary.

I still think we will get taken on raids for MP regen if nothing else.

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I feel for machinist players more than us bards though, they really got the raw end of the situation. I just hope we both get adjusted come time for the hotfix, not just bards.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

They aren't able to do this because unlike everyone else, when they are out of song/promotion they can move and attack at once at close and long distance melee range. Meaning they can 24/7 keep dps up with the exception of when they need to perform a mechanic.

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This was an acceptable excuse until WM came into play. BRD is basically a retarded BLM with that thing having to be used in its current state (and you do have to use it at 60 if you want to at least perform slightly better than most tanks). The changes to come would have to make WM either mobile in some way (perhaps reduced damage auto attacks, allow abilities to be used while moving but without the damage increase, etc) or much more noticeable of a DPS increase in order to justify its existence alongside what's gradually becoming unnecessary damage reduction effects.

Honestly, I figured WM would have been similar to an MM Hunter in WoW before, where you would get a buff for standing still that increased your damage, but would remove the buff for moving. It reapplies when you stop moving. At least that way, you can have the turret benefit that they apparently want for BRD to do their max potential while also keeping the illusion of viable DPS mobility around.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

This would be a good argument but while WM removes the movement, dps is still far short of every other dps. That's my issue with it.

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If they fix DPS on it to where it catches up in a suitable fashion, I wouldn't really mind giving up movement however I can't really speak for other bards on this. But I don't think we should be able to keep up with other dps'ers when completely out of song unless we are in WM is what I was saying.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Not anymore you mean?

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Urm... I may be misunderstanding if you meant bards can't do it anymore then... thats a little wrong, because we can move just when we swap out of WM or aren't in it. But if I am misunderstanding your comment/question(?) then please feel free to correct me!

But I was basically saying that bards aren't allowed to reach the same numbers as other dps'ers because they can move when outside of their song stance. I'm not against a stronger DPS stance, I probably could come off as if I am though lol.

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Originally Posted by bideogames

except if you're shooting and moving it means you're not using wanderer's/gauss. granted they're bad right now, but if se buffs them (they will) then that means you're taking ~*~three~*~ dps hits. one for not using wanderer/gauss, one for actively supporting, and one for mysterious brd/mch dps tax(?!?!?).

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Well I meant when we're completely out of songs, etc. Sorry I consider WM as a song so I was just commenting on why we can't keep up out of song. My mistake Ms/Mr.Bideo, please disregard my reply if I misunderstood. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Ninjas! Goad ftw!Ballad is great, but all good healers know not to expect or rely on it for the simple fact that there's no guarantee there will even be a bard in the party. This goes double now that we have multiple ways to recover MP.

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Coz "all good healers" will never die to content during progression. Sure we can wipe everytime a healer dies, or we can get the bard to battle voice ballad, and continue with learning the fight.

And did u srsly state nin for tp efficiency? Nins are the biggest culprits for tp drinking. Goad is ok to throw on the tank or the monk, but "all good" nins will need paeon.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

Well I meant when we're completely out of songs, etc. Sorry I consider WM as a song so I was just commenting on why we can't keep up out of song. My mistake Ms/Mr.Bideo, please disregard my reply if I misunderstood. ^^;

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I guess I understand your point. There is a option to have the movement, and with them making it easier to switch in and out of. Moving and dps gives us a edge over what other dps has to do, but if that really is the case, should our damage be balance around other range dps, even with moving so it equals up? I don't think we are close to a balance because even with us being able to move on fights, we still are so far behind it seems on dps. That is not good for brd players or group mates.

I love bards, and I think black mages around the realm always hold a special place in their hearts.... I mean with a bard I can crit a fire IV for over 8k :)

It may be hard being a bard, but I have a good one at my side all the time, and it makes me stronger :P

Especially if they play songs through crucial add phases, or like someone else said, real big healing phases were healers need more MP. Just a great job to have on your team.

brds still hold a place in endgame they do better dps then mch and song is far better then mch turret.
there is currently no place for a mch unless you seriously don't have a brd that has a brain.

and which is why the outcry for mch buff before alex is warranted. And I as a mch believe its needed very badly. As both bismarck and ravana ex favor no Gb on for most of the fight as avoidance is pretty much key to these fights. there are rare chances were you can hardcast GB back on for riciochet and Gauss round for backphase of bismarck.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I guess I understand your point. There is a option to have the movement, and with them making it easier to switch in and out of. Moving and dps gives us a edge over what other dps has to do, but if that really is the case, should our damage be balance around other range dps, even with moving so it equals up? I don't think we are close to a balance because even with us being able to move on fights, we still are so far behind it seems on dps. That is not good for brd players or group mates.

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Honestly, I'm not sure. I don't think that we're actually where we should be by a long shot but I'd never consider us really close to other DPS'ers to the point where we can compete with them outside of WM as a norm either.

Oh, wow. I didn't mean to start an all out debate about the class being ruined or not. I was just wondering if people would want to bring them to raids. I do not care if I am not a glass cannon or top dps in the raid, but I do not want to be dead weight. I don't want my friends to bring me along to a raid, because they like me, and feel like they are having to carry my class through the raid, basically. That is what I am trying to avoid mainly. Seems like a lot of good discussion in here though.

The notion that a Bard is only as good as the damage it brings is beyond flawed. It completely ignores the Bard's utility through song. Yes, Minuet is a nod to increasing potential damage and the three new attacks designed to mesh with it. But one of the new abilities is also a support song in the form of a 30s debuff vaccination. You know, that support role people seem to want to gloss over. You will always have a place in any content because eventually you will have party members running low on MP/TP or needing a little boost to magic damage. No other class or Job can do this without having a lengthy cooldown afterward (except maybe Machinist, haven't unlocked it to know). If people are so desperate for a ranged DD that doesn't have a support role tagged on they have two options in the form of Black Mage and Summoner. I hear those can get some big numbers with the right skill.