This Just In: Ifrit HM Now Requires i110

Provoke will fix a lot of the problems you are having in regards to the dps and I would consider it absolutely necessary if you are going to be serious about tanking.

Also if someone pulls that isn't a tank, let them tank it and die.

Depending on one's ilvl Ifrit HM can be tanked even as a DPS, hell, I've tanked it as a NIN (which is the DPS with the least defensive Cooldowns) D:
Im not sure you could have holded aggro on a group 40 ilvls above but yep, flaming at you for this much clearly proves how much of a "good" group that was...

Provoke won't solve your problem, but you should get it anyway (mostly only necessary at EX primals/Coil1 and beyond, but very useful when DPS steal aggro on something in general).

Better gear will, however, solve it. Especially a better weapon.

If I were just starting the game now, fresh 50, I'd spend all my gil on getting an HQ i110 weapon. Then I'd farm CT -> ST to get a decent set of gear, spending my soldiery on accessories (STR/VIT mix). From there, you just naturally progress your gear and you'll have a good baseline gearset for HM/EX Primals and first Coil.

This is genuinely a problem for new players, though. There's no clear indication what direction you should be taking at this point, and it's essentially impossible to perform the MT role as a fresh "undergeared" 50. Hopefully they come up with a way to resolve this issue in Heavensward, but until then... yeah, just try and buy a weapon and get better gear from CT/ST.

DF can be a bit of a hit and miss when it comes to the type of players your going to run into ^^;
More and more are just expecting everyone to have been playing the game since day 1 and go into trails in full 130 just because they want to rush it etc. When I was farming for light I always felt bad for the fresh tank or healer who had no idea what was going on while the rest of the party just rushed off ahead ^^;

If you can - grab some friends and have fun :) DF really is turning into a lottery at times >.>

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Also if someone pulls that isn't a tank, let them tank it and die.

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Can be unavoidable if RNG kicks in and you crit some 6 times in a row for heavy damage. /blm

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Can be unavoidable if RNG kicks in and you crit some 6 times in a row for heavy damage. /blm

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They weren't talking about ripping hate though. They were talking about doing the initial pull.

The tank was waiting for protect and the DRG decided they were gonna go stab Ifrit.

Ilvl 110 + Dps should atlest give first time tanks a 3 to 5 second time frame to get enough hate so there Wouldn't be a problem or low ilvl tank let other tank tank HM primals unless other one is just as green as him/ her

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

They weren't talking about ripping hate though. They were talking about doing the initial pull.

The tank was waiting for protect and the DRG decided they were gonna go stab Ifrit.

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Oh ok, then I'm with the sentiment that DRG should have tanked and set a record for fastest death.

I'll take this time to repeat what I always say regarding aggro: You tanks can keep it. I don't want it.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

We need to remove ilvl sync and add another type of ilvl sync - up to lowest ilvl of a group member. This way low ilvl tanks still can do their job, and if you want to do a fight as fast as possible you can make a group where all members have high ilvl and have fun.

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I think that is one of the options in 3.0.

What bad noobs you had! >_>
They sure only lved up by doing mindless fates and never did any dungeon for 1 XP!

Well it sucks that this happened, but I would place at least some of the blame on the the absolutely awful design of the relic quest. The DRG was probably killing ifrit HM for the 500th time, and was likely expecting everyone else to be doing the same. Having said that, he should have seen your HP, realized you were newer, and set his expectations lower for that run.

But the fact that the light phases of the relic force you to spam HM content hundreds of times (if you're trying to complete the quest in a timely manner), I can see this type of problem being a common occurrence for newer players coming into the HM fights with light farmers.

Same thing happened to me yesterday OP, really frustrating.

Best Action: Clearly tell em you care Shit about their Opinion and do the best of the Situation. Always worked for me.

Thanks all, sorry I didn't get back to this sooner. Let's just say yesterday just got worse after I made this post (Thanks, Moogle HM party that said the other tank called King, even though I did before him! I have that one on video. XD).

I know Provoke is one of those things I need. I don't have a plan to do Coil or EX at the moment (Maybe after Heavensward storyline.). My main thing is just showing me going through big or important storylines (Main scenario, Hildy, relic weapon), though I was going to do the HM primals as an extra for a few days. There's no way I could use that for my videos though, most of my commentary ended up in Angrish. Maybe I'll just save it all for the relic story, and hope it goes better.

Someone asked where the other tank was, I actually had better gear than he did. He also got told to get better gear.

It's really sad that we need to get better gear before we can get better gear because of how gear jumped way up. I guess I'm supposed to shell out like 4M on gear right at level 50. Hopefully they'll do better in HW.

And I really should make a macro of "if you pull it, you tank it" when entering 8 man instances. It's my main's thing, so why not just carry it over? XD

Thanks for listening to my rant, everyone. :D

I'm late to the party but... I feel ya on that too. When I was a fresh level 50 tank, I got all sorts of crap. From watching cutscenes, to being only i90, etc.

Hell, to this day, I still get crap from random DPS (It's always usually them it seems) and the occasional healer even though I'm a fully geared i130 tank now. Someone said it earlier in this thread and I think he/she put it best. It's not so much that there's a shortage of tanks so much as it is a shortage of tanks who are willing to put up with the shit that DF is likely to toss into your face. I still go as a Tank into DF myself partially because I'm used to running into such shit, but man... some of the DPS and Healer players you run into via DF. Makes you want to strangle them.

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Originally Posted by Its_Elodie

When I tank and dps pull, they can keep it.

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This. Nothing discourages bad habits like consequences for their actions. They learn fast.

I've been in a similar situation a lot of times....

but in my case, it was ALWAYS the other tank provoking the stupid primal as soon as I pulled or started taking aggro on it.

THAT is really infuriating. and childish.

Usually if i see light farming ppl in my trial roulette etc lol i just afk cuz they often pull without protect or buffs.
Its just load in to fight -> run straight into fight -> win after a few mins -> leave
So if ur playing with power creep players the only thing u can do is take shield oath/ defiance off etc and just dps it even tho ur a tank and u should be tanking.
Like others have mentioned there is nothing u can do/ not much u can contribute to the group. Its technically a forced carry at this point.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Usually if i see light farming ppl in my trial roulette etc lol i just afk cuz they often pull without protect or buffs.
Its just load in to fight -> run straight into fight -> win after a few mins -> leave
So if ur playing with power creep players the only thing u can do is take shield oath/ defiance off etc and just dps it even tho ur a tank and u should be tanking.
Like others have mentioned there is nothing u can do/ not much u can contribute to the group. Its technically a forced carry at this point.

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the fact that the other tank waits for god knows what before pulling, so I pull, and then I see him using provoke on the primal...

I mean..why xD

I'm a 112 WAR working on relic. I glance at the class and HP of the other tank and make a snap decision on whether I should take off defiance or not.

In fact, I made a handy dandy flow chart for it:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/9be1eebb...a11wo1_540.png

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm a 112 WAR working on relic. I glance at the class and HP of the other tank and make a snap decision on whether I should take off defiance or not.

In fact, I made a handy dandy flow chart for it:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/9be1eebb...a11wo1_540.png

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This I love may I have it for future reference? :D

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm a 112 WAR working on relic. I glance at the class and HP of the other tank and make a snap decision on whether I should take off defiance or not.

In fact, I made a handy dandy flow chart for it:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/9be1eebb...a11wo1_540.png

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That is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen~! <3

Anyone who tells you "Come back with i110" gear for a fight that old, is just bad in general. People are just upset because they wanted to speed run and ended soiling themselves because god forbid we ever do the original mechanics from time to time.

You're fine, they're just a spoiled bunch. Though...you should have provoke haha

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Originally Posted by Catwho

https://41.media.tumblr.com/9be1eebb...a11wo1_540.png

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Swap war and pld in pretty much every spot there in order to get proper meta.

(Good) Wars have better HP smoothing due to being able to inner beast every large attack by saving on the use of wrath stacks until necessary + infuriate when wrath stacks aren't there (Also, unchained + berserk + bloodlust combo is just great for self heals, and thrill of battle is another good self heal to aid HP smoothing). Paladins have more CDs but you can't put up Sentinel or Rampart on every tank buster like Wars can, and bulwark isn't perfectly reliable for taking the edge off those big hits. And even if it were, a pld can, on average, have a CD up every 45 seconds, while a War can inner best every 12 seconds (~15 seconds for 7 gcds with end game gear + 1 extra inner beast from infuriate every 60 seconds, if necessary), and vengeance every 120 seconds, brings it up to War's being able to have a damage reducing ability up every 11 seconds. Granted, it's harder to time inner beast uses, because it's on GCD, but we're assuming a good war vs a good pld, because you should be trying to be good, not just decent (and a decent pld and decent war, the pld does probably have better HP smoothing because all the pld CDs are oGCD.) IT IS worth noting, however, that while paladins are going to get spiked more often, thanks to block rate blah blah etc. their constant non-spike damage will be lower, and they heal a little easier. This isn't saying Wars are better than Plds, just that they have better HP smoothing so they can take multiple spike damage hits in a fight without stressing healers, and are just as capable of staying alive.

Given the fact they can both pretty easily stay alive and hold aggro, the main reason war should be the default MT is that paladins do more damage in sword oath than warriors outside of defiance, while warriors in defiance do more damage than paladins in shield oath because paladins gain damage over their baseline when in their DPS stance, while Wars lose less DPS in their tank stance than listed because of wrath attacks ignoring the damage reduction plus the use of unchained AND, before anyone goes 'bluh bluh tanks aren't dps', tank DPS is calculated into minimum dps checks for content. It was just stated not long ago. Paladins also have an oGCD PBAoE threat generator in circle of scorn and can flash more often, making it easier for paladins to pick up disparate adds running around, and for single adds either tank class can pick them up easily.

The 'paladin is the better main tank' thing is an artifact of an earlier age when Wars were broken and a bit shit.

Though, I'll concede, given that most of the userbase is still caught up in the old meta of 'Pld is MT', it's probably just easier to let the paladin's main tank if they want to than trying to explain that. Besides, off tank is more fun. More going on with add pick ups and actually dealing with mechanics and stuff, instead of just standing in front of the boss.

Also, generally, as off tank you DO want to be using your aggro gaining combo, just not in tank stance (and, obviously, if you're war, keep up your paths as well). It will set you up to, unless you're out geared and/or have your rotation set up poorly, be the next person the boss turns to if the main tank dies, instead of a healer or DPS, thus saving you a provoke/it turning and gibbing a melee DPS before you can get provoke + some other aggro generator off, and if you need to avoid using your aggro combo to avoid ripping threat when you're generating ~2/3 the threat by default (tank stance = 75% potency, with enmity then doubled = ~150% enmity potency) by not being in tank stance, the other guy is probably going to have issues holding from any competent DPS you were lucky enough to get forcing the DPS to choose between ripping aggro or prolonging the fight (and, in any content that isn't outgeared, risk missing minimum DPS checks/making the fight last long enough to run healers oom), AND you're destroying your own DPS in the process.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm a 112 WAR working on relic. I glance at the class and HP of the other tank and make a snap decision on whether I should take off defiance or not.

In fact, I made a handy dandy flow chart for it:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/9be1eebb...a11wo1_540.png

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As a Paladin, pray tell how am I supposed to not use a threat rotation? Spam Riot Blade? Autoattack? :p

Honestly, if I don't wanna tank I just come into the fight with Sword Oath up. The other tank usually gets the picture and pulls. If I notice that the other tank is undergeared, I'll turn Shield Oath on and pull because they wouldn't be able to hold threat off me DPS'ing anyway so there's no use in me insisting on it. If we both just stand there out of our tanking stances for a few moments staring at each other cause neither of us wants to tank, I'll turn Shield Oath back on and pull because there's no sense in standing around. In the case that I'm on Warrior I do the same, but if the other tank is undergeared it's kind of whatever since I at least have non threat generating skills to use in DPS'ing.

Try to brush off their comments. They're DPS after all, their opinion doesn't matter. Just keep working away at it, you'll get geared up sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

As a Paladin, pray tell how am I supposed to not use a threat rotation? Spam Riot Blade? Autoattack? :p

Honestly, if I don't wanna tank I just come into the fight with Sword Oath up. The other tank usually gets the picture and pulls. If I notice that the other tank is undergeared, I'll turn Shield Oath on and pull because they wouldn't be able to hold threat off me DPS'ing anyway so there's no use in me insisting on it. If we both just stand there out of our tanking stances for a few moments staring at each other cause neither of us wants to tank, I'll turn Shield Oath back on and pull because there's no sense in standing around. In the case that I'm on Warrior I do the same, but if the other tank is undergeared it's kind of whatever since I at least have non threat generating skills to use in DPS'ing.

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That's why the PLD is probably going to be the MT in nearly every situation, as the flowchart indicates. (Unlike the poster who is above you, who doesn't get that fact.) PLD's main damage rotation is the threat rotation. They can't help it. WAR, on the other hand, has two amazing WS rotations that don't generate nearly as much threat AND provide beneficial debuffs. If the WAR is the off tank, the WAR can use the debuff WS on the boss and make life easier on the paladin and boost DPS. WAR can turn off Defiance and put out some pretty rad damage, unlike a PLD. WAR is better suited for crowd control, and thus off tanking, where they need to scoop up a bunch of adds.

I'm a 10K HP warrior. I can't hold hate against an 8K HP paladin and I don't even want to try.

Dragoon could have tanked that fight for you. Keen flurry all day every day baby.

Even though I dps, I don't pull unless I have permission. I live by the "If you are a non-tank and you pull it then you get the honors of tanking it while everyone laughs at you as you get face-melted."

Prior to glamours, I was able to tell from a glance if a tank was geared/over-geared/under-geared. Now it's a little bit difficult. But if I find a tank that's under-geared (compared to the majority of the party) then I am far more forgiving and I don't go out all. I try to match the pace of the tank's/tanks' abilities.

Sounds like the group was bad, OP.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm a 10K HP warrior. I can't hold hate against an 8K HP paladin and I don't even want to try.

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Lets start here:

Yes you can.

The enmity generation (all enmity listed as enmity potency) of a proper warrior opening (infuriate -> unchained -> Heavy -> Berserk -> Skull -> BB -> Heavy -> Maim -> Path -> Heavy -> Skull -> BB) is 14,953 (we're timing out berserk real tight here to get that last BB out just before pacification hits, and might lose around 1000 enmity if we're sloppy at all, but even at 13k ePot this still all checks out) over that 20 seconds. A paladin in sword oath will put out, in that time doing FoF/CoS timed to get two in and dropping Spirits Within on CD (only once in the first 20s, granted) hits 7,106. That's less than half and assuming the paladin is not holding back at all.

After that initial 'wee all my CDs' spike, as a warrior using path every two BBs (enough to keep it up), and only using eye situationally (as you should), you'll be generating 3,290 enmity per combo, on average. A paladin, who is still not holding back, is going to be producing 1,887 in sword oath. IF you decide to keep up eye all the time for some reason, you'll still be keeping up 2073 enmity (give or take a couple tenths), which is still about 200 more per combo than the paladin and more than enough to keep your loldoubleyourenmity lead.

Note: I'm not calculating in the slash resist debuff, only berserk, unchained, FoF, and maim, because pld and warrior will benefit roughly equally from the debuff (warrior will actually get a bit more out of it because CoS and SW aren't slashing but whatever).

So, yes. Yes you can keep aggro. Easily.

Now, moving on:

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Originally Posted by Catwho

WAR can turn off Defiance and put out some pretty rad damage, unlike a PLD.

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A war who is off tanking's maximum damage is to just spam BB, popping berserk when they can and keeping fracture up. This isn't what you'd actually do because, as you said, the path/eye combos are great and you'd probably be keeping them both up to keep enmity down, but lets just look at what a warrior can do in berserk. You've got enough time for about 2 combos + another attack. So that's 150, 200, and 280 potency x 1.50 x 2 and then a fracture snap casted at the end. Or, 1890 potency in those 15s plus another 450 over the next thirty. Probably tosses in a brutal swing during berserk for an extra 75 potency. So altogether, we'll just say 2415 (possibly 2715 if we time berserk just right and manage to drop a skull sunder before our snap fracture) potency in 20 seconds (15 of berserk, 5 of pacification)

Meanwhile a paladin is doing FoF for 20 seconds, and dropping two CoS in that time, along with 3 rage combos, and a spirit's within. So that's 100 + (30 x 5) x 1.3 (fof) x 2 for the circles which is 650 potency from the two circles, plus another 300 for spirits (I don't believe this gets the FoF bonus as I believe it's magical), so that's 950. Now we add the three rage combos, which are 150, 200, 260, added up that's 610, multiply by 3 because we can do this 3 times, and it's 1830, multiply by 1.3 for Fof and 2379, add the circles and spirits and that's 3329 potency in 20 seconds (180 potency, admittedly, will land via the second snap casted CoS in the five seconds after that, but 3149 is still more deeps than an unstanced war).

Now let's also add that you're going to get about 8 auto attacks in in that time as either, BUT the paladin in sword oath gets +50 damage on each.

So the paladin is hitting, with buffs up 3329 potency, plus another 400 damage (straight damage, nothing really impacts that other than weapon speed) in the 20 seconds they have their primary damage buff up, while the warrior is hitting 2415 with no added damage.

Add in that the Warrior is taking hits to potency to put up path, if not both path and eye, and well it's pretty laughable that you say the warrior can drop defiance to do nice damage and the paladin can't.

You win. I don't feel like arguing on the internet when Garuda HM is in bonus.

Sounds like a bunch of light farmers getting pissy that they actually had to play right instead of hamfisting the keyboard while watching Netflix.

Though I chuckled at the other tank with less gear jumping on you too, poor guy was probably just trying to deflect so he wasn't roasted too.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm a 112 WAR working on relic. I glance at the class and HP of the other tank and make a snap decision on whether I should take off defiance or not.

In fact, I made a handy dandy flow chart for it:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/9be1eebb...a11wo1_540.png

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Small issue, though: Sometimes having more HP doesn't mean you're the better choice at tanking. Some tanks with ridiculously high HP have effectively sacrificed threat generation to get to that stage.
But this is only really relevant in coils anyway, so I digress.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Small issue, though: Sometimes having more HP doesn't mean you're the better choice at tanking. Some tanks with ridiculously high HP have effectively sacrificed threat generation to get to that stage.
But this is only really relevant in coils anyway, so I digress.

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Yeah, probably. The chart is more for snap judgement for things like Garuda or T4, where people don't even want to take the 10 seconds to discuss it. T4 I just straight up say "I'll OT" since I'm good at crowd control, but lack the gear to hold hate against a 6K HP dragoon. :P Ideally if you're rolling into Coil, you're going to know who is doing what ahead of time, or be willing to take the 30 seconds to have the conversation prior to the fight starting.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Small issue, though: Sometimes having more HP doesn't mean you're the better choice at tanking. Some tanks with ridiculously high HP have effectively sacrificed threat generation to get to that stage.
But this is only really relevant in coils anyway, so I digress.

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I healed Praetorium once with a (new) tank who had over over 5000 HP. Problem was, his left-side was still entirely i50 AF, so even though he thought he had the "HP" to withstand certain formerly sure-kill mechanics without CDs, he actually couldn't take the hits. I really wish HP wasn't used as the metric for a tank's tankiness, because at the end of the day it's the Defense and MDef you're after.

Definitely have to chuckle at this thread. As someone who has high level tanks and goon and plays goon as my main dps class I just wanted to say its not really your fault though definitely provoke would have helped. As a tank easiest solution would have been get 2nd on the agro table, let the goon die and take over from there. As the goon if you are in Ifrit HM by now you should know your roll. My goon has over 7K HP still doesn't mean I can tank a primal. Adds on the other hand that's different. I have to also agree with one of the other posters that it was most likely a light farm where people were annoyed because shocker they might actually have to follow mechanics.