Housing plots need rent. Sound horrible? Consider these facts:

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

Even separating FC/personal housing, I think it's too late to do that, they should've just waited to perfect the player housing before rushing it out intermingled with FC houses, but they didn't.. Too late to go back now.

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You know, if ARR and Yoshi-P have taught us anything, it's never too late to scrap what didn't work and build it better than before. I'm holding out a small spark of hope (very small) that perhaps their silence is because they are working something up behind the scenes and all this will be a less than fond memory in a few months.

The level of complexity that this has introduced into the economy is dangerous. They are taking good steps by adjusting the power crafters have. The next step is cutting down the sheer number of reasons folks might want to turn to RMT

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

They are taking good steps by adjusting the power crafters have. The next step is cutting down the sheer number of reasons folks might want to turn to RMT

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I don't see the specialist and scrip systems doing that much to level out the playing field on crafting, and the only other way to reign in crafters is to make everything crafted worthless. The casual crafter can spend 3 months building up subpar gear with scrips to do recipes that have become slow selling and low profit, take that omnicrafters.

They are widening the gap between the dungeon runners and the top raiders, while trying to lower it between the casual crafter and the master crafter. The problem is the top tier raiders and the top tier crafters feed each other early in new content, you can't boost the top raiders without boosting the top crafters.

The only way to close the income gap between crafters and the rest of the population is to make crafting more accessible to a wider audience.. No amount of specialization or ease of master crafting will accomplish that.. Some people just don't want to craft, only way to change that is to make crafting completely trivial as a 1-click system and that's not what FF14's crafting system is all about.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You know, if ARR and Yoshi-P have taught us anything, it's never too late to scrap what didn't work and build it better than before.

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I like your optimism, but note that 1.0 release of the game was a huge failure over every aspect of the game, it was the consensus among players and developers alike.
Now, this housing issue, it's just one small aspect of the game, very essential to some players, but still one aspect.. I hope SE fixes it too honestly, but I just don't see it happening.

Honestly, if SE could implement some kind of a trailer park-esque system where all houses are inherently instanced, but there are 3 zones (snowy/beachy/urban) that can each hold about 300-400 houses, so it would have to be about the size of Coerthas each but only make 1 copy of this zone, not multiple of the same stuff..

Then SE implements rents to have your instanced house take up an actual plot on these new housing zones, I would love that system.. Then each aetheryte to the house could have a code to be used, for example if you wanted to visit my house, you use the Snowy Housing area teleport and type in #400192, then whoosh you teleport right in front of my house and the number can be attached to my search info or something.. THAT to me, is what my ideal housing situation would be. I just don't see that happening though :(

Please no. I am so burned out on crafting things, I was expecting this to be a one time buy deal. I do not feel like crafting more I want to enjoy other aspects of the game x.x

I would imagine a steady flow of gil from simple game related activities would be needed to make this work because why in the world would i get home from my real job only to grind away on crafting to ensure i don't lose my house? I'm about to unlock my third masterbook II (in prep for the 3 specialist in HW) and ill tell you right now... crafting when you don't really need to do it is fun, but crafting when you HAVE to do it F'in sucks. So unless the rent is ridiculously cheap and is only really used to weed out the ones who don't get on or the game dailys/missions start feeding you gil easily so i can focus on other things then this is just a shower thought with no real traction at all. Oh and just curious OP... do you own a house?

I think it's a bit late to add a rent system in. If it was launched like that, fine, provided there was an eventual cut off point where you finish paying and just own the place. That would have absolved a lot of the qualms with the ridiculous initial cost, if they had instead spread it out over several installments with failure to pay first adding to the cost and later losing you the plot. Going back and adding that in now would just be a disaster though, I don't play this game to pay virtual rent. It would need an eventual cut off and ability to pay in advance in my opinion, and with that it doesn't solve the shortage of plots very well.

All they need to do is implement a similar system to Free Company leadership; You don't log in for X days, you lose the land. Slap the furniture and some Gil on an NPC for people to pick up, and done. Sure people will complain about losing their house, but if they're not even logging in they really shouldn't have it, they wont even notice until they come back. If they get most of the furniture and some Gil in compensation then everything seems fine to me, perhaps remove that stupid resale restriction on furniture as well.

People who don't play lose their plots, if they want them back, well... People who don't play lose their plots, they could always obtain another plot the same way someone just obtained theirs, it's not like they'd be in the same situation as people who currently want a plot. Ideally though, they'd go "No, I didn't really use it before, so I wont waste time buying another one". SE really shouldn't avoid implementing something like that because people might see the lost land and just quit, those are the kinds of children they should want playing their game, and unlike the whole hardcore/casual argument with regards to subscribers, this wouldn't have a massive impact on subscribers because housing is in short supply anyway.

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

Clipped

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There is no way im paying 250,000g - 500,000g a month just to keep my small plot of land + house you are absurd. What they should do is create an entirely new plot for renters and leave us who paid outright for our homes alone. Let alone how you think new players could afford this ridiculous high price.

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Originally Posted by Haru

There is no way im paying 250,000g - 500,000g a month just to keep my small plot of land + house you are absurd

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Mmhm, which would mean another open plot for people to buy once you give it up :)

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Originally Posted by Haru

What they should do is create an entirely new plot for renters and leave us who paid outright for our homes alone. Let alone how you think new players could afford this ridiculous high price.

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New and old doesn't matter in terms of purchasing power, it's up to the individual. There are plenty of new players that can afford housing, but can't because all the plots are taken up by people who made a few million gil back in the day and just let the house sit without doing anything with it.

I understand that upkeep will alienate part of the playerbase, but that's the entire premise of the idea, alienate part of the player base that don't care enough to make the extra rent, then it will free up houses.. Couple that with letting people trade houses, it will give home ownership a much needed rotation rather than being stale and owned by the same people forever until SE adds new wards, then a few more people will join the ranks but the idea will still be the same, only a minority of the playerbase who happened to buy the house in time will get to keep it forever and majority of the players don't even have a chance to ever get one.

Ideal solution would be to add more wards, but SE has shown us again and again that they're not capable of just doubling and tripling wards whenever there's demand.
Seriously, 250k or 500k gil sounds like a lot but that's price of a couple of good tier IV materia.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

Ideal solution would be to add more wards, but SE has shown us again and again that they're not capable of just doubling and tripling wards whenever there's demand.

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What? The last time they gave us new Wards they did so by doubling the number by adding subdivisions... There is no reason to believe they wont eventually do the same in the future... So what if they can't do it at the drop of the hat? They can and they will, the only real issue with housing is plots owned by people who aren't even playing, but there are much better ways to deal with that than forcing people to pay absurd amounts rent... That would just destroy the enjoyment of housing for the majority because it stops being something fun and starts being Tenant Simulator.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

Seriously, 250k or 500k gil sounds like a lot but that's price of a couple of good tier IV materia.

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Honestly, to me that doesn't sound like a lot. I've got enough to last me a couple years as it is already, and I could certainly make more easily. I'm against this idea solely because it is simply unfun. Anyone with a house probably wouldn't have a hard time making that amount unless they make Gardening available to absolute everyone and that little economic bubble bursts. This wouldn't really achieve anything with that in mind, only people who aren't playing would lose their plots, but like I said, there are far better ways to go about doing that. Ones which don't sap the fun out of housing.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

I understand that upkeep will alienate part of the playerbase.

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You mean the majority of the playerbase.

I dunno. To me your idea seems counterintuitive. You wouldn't be opening housing to more of the playerbase, but even less than before.

I personally could pay hefty rent and it wouldn't make me bat an eyelash, but, aside from not liking rent in any shape or form, I'd be completely against paying rent simply so the, more or less, "rich" could be the only ones in the housing areas. lol

Edit: but I'm totally for a system that takes away houses from people who've been unsubbed for long periods of time. Maybe three months of being unsubbed is fair?

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Originally Posted by Elim

You mean the majority of the playerbase.

I dunno. To me your idea seems counterintuitive. You wouldn't be opening the housing to more of the playerbase, but even less than before.

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Because the number of plots in this game can only cater to a minority, might as well make that minority the ones who REALLY want the housing instead of someone who just bought it because it was new and shiny, and hasn't done anything with it for the past 6 months. (These people are still subbed, housing is just not a very big interest to them, but there's no reason to relinquish, so they keep it around without using it, I WAS one of those people, until I gave it away to a friend of mine as a wedding gift)

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Originally Posted by Elim

the rich could be the only ones in the housing areas

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Houses in the game are ALREADY owned by the rich. Currently, it's a mixture of rich players, some who really care for housing, decorating, etc. and others who couldn't care less but have no reason to relinquish. If upkeep was implemented, it would at least be the rich who really want to own houses.

Every time I pass by houses in my FC ward, and see an empty yard, even an empty plot (owned, but not built) it makes me wonder if these people really deserve to keep their house simply because they could afford it. They don't live in it!

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Originally Posted by Nalien

What? The last time they gave us new Wards they did so by doubling the number by adding subdivisions...

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Yes, adding additional wards would have to be an ongoing thing to fix the underlying cause of the issue, but in the meantime, upkeep would let more people play with houses. At the rate we're going, I don't think we'll ever see enough wards added to cater to anything BUT the minority of the playerbase. Even on Jenova, there are about 7 or 8 Mediums left and that's it. Most people are going without houses, but as time passes it's only natural that more of them would want it, 2 months down the road I expect to see some complains about lack of housing on Jenova.. Somebody posted that the last plot on Lamia sold out a few days ago, a day after that there was a post of an FC that wants to buy a plot on Lamia, give those people a few more weeks and the idea of "I want to buy a plot" quickly changes to "There's no plot anywhere!?"




If SE was willing to scrap the housing entirely and overhaul the system where every house is inherently instanced and they released residential districts in the game with rent that worked in a trailer park like manner, that is what I would imagine to be the best way to implement housing. I'm not an advocate of the current housing system as is, I just don't see any realistic solution other than a redo, which I don't think SE is willing to consider.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

Yes, adding additional wards would have to be an ongoing thing to fix the underlying cause of the issue, but in the meantime, upkeep would let more people play with houses.

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And, like I said, there are far better ways to go about dealing with this. Kicking people who aren't using their house, out of their house, is the solution. Not turning the entire thing into a massive chore.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

If SE was willing to scrap the housing entirely and overhaul the system where every house is inherently instanced and they released residential districts in the game with rent that worked in a trailer park like manner, that is what I would imagine to be the best way to implement housing. I'm not an advocate of the current housing system as is, I just don't see any realistic solution other than a redo, which I don't think SE is willing to consider.

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Why would they have to scrap the current system completely? Leave it as is, having a neighborhood is actually quite a nice thing, certainly enjoyed the Christmas event as a result (even if it had a few flaws regarding Subdivisions). I rather enjoy having my Free Company Mansion next door to my private house. Creating an instanced version for everyone would be great, but they don't have to completely gut the existing system to do so, we can easily have both.

I'm all for a system that kicks people out of their house for inactivity. You don't need rent for that. Maybe take away housing from people who've been unsubbed or inactive for three months. The devs were planning on implementing system(as you probably know), but the main problem with their system (IMO) was they were only going to give us 35 days. That is WAY too short, and I understand why so many people complained. Needs to be longer so people can travel or go on vacation without loosing their house. lol

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Originally Posted by Elim

That is WAY too short, and I understand why so many people complained. Needs to be longer so people can travel or go on vacation without loosing their house. lol

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I think 70 days would have been good, if not 100. If they also made it so you retain all your furniture (they have a system for that if you lose a Private Room due to Free Company issues, don't they?) while actually being able to sell it off if you don't need it anymore, and perhaps get some Gil in compensation then it would be perfect. One of the other reasons people hold onto their land while doing nothing with it is because it did cost them an arm and a leg. Since we can't really sell the plots on (without the buyer effectively having to pay extra) that just means people hold onto them. If you could abandon the house and get an arm back without that having to come from the new buyer, that would be a much more attractive offer for both parties.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

And, like I said, there are far better ways to go about dealing with this. Kicking people who aren't using their house, out of their house, is the solution

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That's what an upkeep would do. Kicking for unsub would also work but there are far too many active players who just don't use their house.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Why would they have to scrap the current system completely? Leave it as is, having a neighborhood is actually quite a nice thing

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Yeah I like the neighborhoods too, hate seeing all the dead houses in the ward, but for the most part I enjoy seeing different people wandering around, if SE could somehow triple the number of wards (~5000 plots), I think it would alleviate a lot of the problems.. But eventually, on any server with more than 10000 players, they would STILL run out of plots

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Originally Posted by Nalien

we can easily have both.

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That's where I disagree, I do like your optimism however.



Can you imagine a World without property taxes? Speaking about US specifically, anybody who had the misfortune of having ancestors that weren't around in the 19th century would basically be unable to own ANYTHING because all the land and houses would've been previously owned and those wouldn't exchange hands if there was no upkeep to owning it. That's the kind of environment SE is fostering with the housing system.. Good thing is, this is a game so the upkeep doesn't have to be in just the form of money, money IS the simplest form of charging, but it can be done other ways, activity for example as many suggested, and SE could always come up with a whole new system to check who wants to keep their house. Point is.. the current housing system we have has NONE of that, that's why old houses don't exchange hands and just sit there rotting away. If we can just build more houses, great, but that's a limited solution in an ever growing World.

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Originally Posted by Elim

I'm all for a system that kicks people out of their house for inactivity. You don't need rent for that. Maybe take away housing from people who've been unsubbed or inactive for three months. The devs were planning on implementing system(as you probably know), but the main problem with their system (IMO) was they were only going to give us 35 days. That is WAY too short, and I understand why so many people complained. Needs to be longer so people can travel or go on vacation without loosing their house. lol

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Then just continue to sub on your vacation or travel, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

had to shorten is cus limit.

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70 or 100 or whatever sounds fair to me. 35 just wasn't enough.

They could also just make houses dirt cheap, then if you do loose yours it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Although I personally don't mind the prices.

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Originally Posted by Madjames

Then just continue to sub on your vacation or travel, problem solved.

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That would work, if you only got booted for unsubbing not inactivity.

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Originally Posted by Elim

70 or 100 or whatever sounds fair to me. 35 just wasn't enough.

They could also just make houses dirt cheap, then if you do loose yours it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Although I personally don't mind the prices.



That would work, if you only got booted for unsubbing not inactivity.

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Which is what I recommend. Unsub and you lose your house.

Simple Answer: No.
Just no...

I myself with work and you know, LIFE have a few hours a day if that to play, and when I do have that time I rather spend it taking my time and enjoying the game (casual player) than worrying if I have enough gill to be paying rent on a in game house, let alone real life.

Don't pull the 'if you cant pay don't bother'. A game isn't a job, we shouldn't be punished just because some of us have limited game time.

Plus: Life happens.
What if your computer bombed and needed to be fully replaced? It could happen! What if it takes a few months of saving to buy a new one? Yep, happened to me. Would suck to lose something so costly due to life huh?

Make it so if your sub runs out you have X amount of time to resub (say 6 months to account for life stuff) then your house opens up and all your items are placed in a temp npc with all or some of the gill for said plot so when you log back in you have a chance to recover it and buy a new one.

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Originally Posted by Taiine

Plus: Life happens.
What if your computer bombed and needed to be fully replaced? It could happen! What if it takes a few months of saving to buy a new one? Yep, happened to me. Would suck to lose something so costly due to life huh?

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This this this! I worked sooooo hard to get my house, staring at the marketboard for literally months and doing nothing else but crafting and selling stuff, if my computer died or I had to go on leave for anything IRL for a bit, I would be so devastated if I came back and all of my hard work was gone. No other aspect of the game punishes you for being inactive, please do not make the one thing I really enjoy in the game punish you for being inactive ._.

Just push for new wards people! Server upgrades as a priority! Do not take housing away from those who currently have it, urge SE to open up more!

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Originally Posted by Titor

No other aspect of the game punishes you for being inactive

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That's because no other aspect of the game has limited supply.
1440 houses for a large server (~30k players) means that it only serves less than 5% of the player base.
No other aspect of the game is as limited..
Add more wards? Sure, can SE add 30000 plots? I don't see that happening

Well if something happened in real life that forced you away for an extended time, would it be okay to lose everything you worked hard saving up for? I'm sorry but I would likly leave the game after that. That is a LOT of wasted gill, not just for the plot but for the decor as well. To lose all that time and effort in a GAME just because something forces you away is harsh.

I still say only release the plot if your sub has run out for 6+ months. That is to help account for life issues getting in the way. Shoot when my system got ruined due to a storm caving in part of the cealing, I had to go with out for nearly five months, having to deal with affording the roof repairs, THEN getting a new pc. That was a few years ago yes, but life happens. I was a wow player back then, main healer for a hard core raiding guild. Shoot Wrath was just coming out, I was well behind everyone else. Should they have kicked me for it for not being around? No because punishing someone for life isn't right.

Terrible idea, just terrible op

focus on the problem not the players (hint...thats SE)

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Originally Posted by Taiine

I was a wow player back then, main healer for a hard core raiding guild. Shoot Wrath was just coming out, I was well behind everyone else. Should they have kicked me for it for not being around?

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They didn't have to kick you out of the guild because there's plenty of room in the guild itself.
But I'm sure you got kicked from the raid group? Or were they nice enough to hold off raiding until you got back?

The key difference between the two is supply.. Housing in the game at the moment is more akin to a spot in a raiding group, very limited.

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Originally Posted by Taiine

Well if something happened in real life that forced you away for an extended time, would it be okay to lose everything you worked hard saving up for? I'm sorry but I would likly leave the game after that. That is a LOT of wasted gill, not just for the plot but for the decor as well. To lose all that time and effort in a GAME just because something forces you away is harsh.

I still say only release the plot if your sub has run out for 6+ months. That is to help account for life issues getting in the way. Shoot when my system got ruined due to a storm caving in part of the cealing, I had to go with out for nearly five months, having to deal with affording the roof repairs, THEN getting a new pc. That was a few years ago yes, but life happens. I was a wow player back then, main healer for a hard core raiding guild. Shoot Wrath was just coming out, I was well behind everyone else. Should they have kicked me for it for not being around? No because punishing someone for life isn't right.

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YES it is ok to lose stuff. I have been playing mmorpg's since September 1997 when I was 10. I worked as a gardener for neighbors to afford the 10 dollars a month. Then wow came out and again, never missed a payment.

Then I got married and never missed the $30 a month payment for wow. Switched to FF11 and never missed the 30 dollars there, or in SWTOR and now Here.

Saying stuff like "Wahh IRL stuff happened and I cant pay 15 dollars a month for 6 months or a year, It isnt FAIR to lose my house!"

Life is not fair. Perhaps I have been lucky. Perhaps I just have been fortunate enough in my life to be paying for an MMORPG subscription for 18 years, STRAIGHT. Or perhaps some of you so called adults are CHOOSING not to pay your sub and instead putting it towards some other activity or hobby. For the first 7 years it was $10 a month, then it was $15, and for the past 10 years it has been $30 a month. I have NEVER missed a sub payment, not even when I went on vacation for 2-3 weeks straight because I had Family doing things for me and keeping my businesses in the game going while I was away. I was 10 years OLD and I had the motivation to make SURE MY SUB NEVER RAN OUT, EVER!!!

I have NO sympathy for people saying it isnt fair because sorry to tell you, life is not fair. To keep something as limited as housing is from people who are actually HERE and supporting the game and paying their subscription is a stupid practice.

I lost my home and countless rares and server rares in Ultima Online because my Castle decayed. Why? Because I quit playing the game and canceled my subscription to move to World of warcraft. Your talking about a 50 Million Castle for the plot alone. I had roughly 200 million gold or more in just rare items, not counting how many million gold I had in 1 mil vouchers in my house chest OR how many one of a kind server only items that were worth 500+ million gold a piece.

Do you honestly expect me to be able to go back to UO now and have all of my stuff back? Do you honestly believe that all of the rare and one of a kind items should be mine still if I went back?

I was One of the richest people in the whole game world wide at the time. I can say with full confidence that I would NOT expect to have all of my stuff back if I went back. Life is not fair and it was MY decision to leave and NOT support the game in any way. Why should I have this self entitlement regarding a game that I am not paying for AT ALL? Why shouldn't other people who actually ARE supporting the game have my castle and everything inside of it due to it decaying and my stuff falling on the ground?

The point here is that it IS fair if you stop your sub, PERIOD. Limited in game things such as housing should ALWAYS go to paying subscribers over someone who quits the game even for a month ALWAYS! Ultima Online did it and your house decayed after 30 days. The system KEPT people subscribing and worked great to get all of the people who do leave the game to actually lose their plar in order for a PAYING CUSTOMER to get a house, and use all of its features!

Do not sit there and give me this bullshit excuse of "I cant pay for the game for 6 months due to this or that happening IRL" If you cant scrap together $15 a month when your an adult yet a 10 year old kid made sure for the next 18 YEARS (This is up to and including today) his sub was paid for, you seriously have something wrong in your life and perhaps you shouldn't even be playing the game in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Elim

You mean the majority of the playerbase.

I dunno. To me your idea seems counterintuitive. You wouldn't be opening housing to more of the playerbase, but even less than before.

I personally could pay hefty rent and it wouldn't make me bat an eyelash, but, aside from not liking rent in any shape or form, I'd be completely against paying rent simply so the, more or less, "rich" could be the only ones in the housing areas. lol

Edit: but I'm totally for a system that takes away houses from people who've been unsubbed for long periods of time. Maybe three months of being unsubbed is fair?

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Do you realise how stupid this sounds? Currently only 5% of the players in the game can have a house. How would implementing a system forcing the inactive among that 5% to relinquish their homes alienate more players than the current 95% that cannot get a house because they're all taken?

You mean to tell me that there are no players in that 95% that would leap at the chance to have a house, with an upkeep cost, that were previously denied one because selfish people bought houses then quit the game?

As other posters have pointed out, the upkeep doesn't even need to be expensive. It could literally be just 1 gil and you would instantly have a system relinquishing houses from unsubscribed players. Other games using this system (actually pretty much every MMO I've ever seen with non-instanced housing used this upkeep cost system, so it does work) also allowed you pay in advance for several months if you knew you were going to be away from the game for some time.

To be honest the fact that this system works perfectly in countless other MMOs kinda immediately dismisses all of the doomsayers that post against the idea. It works; your fears are therefore rendered invalid. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

To be honest the fact that this system works perfectly in countless other MMOs kinda immediately dismisses all of the doomsayers that post against the idea. It works; your fears are therefore rendered invalid. Sorry.

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I have no fears with the system, I simply do not think it is the best way to remove players from abandoned plots. Rent is not fun, it's as simple as that.

The exact same can be achieved by simply kicked people off land if they've left the game. The upkeep cost then just moves from (potentially) having to grind Gil, to actually having to visit your homestead, which would actually be nice to see though I suppose people would have to visit to pay rent as well.

Both achieve pretty much the exact same thing, only difference is one doesn't have the stigma of tenancy attached to it.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Other games using this system (actually pretty much every MMO I've ever seen with non-instanced housing used this upkeep cost system, so it does work) also allowed you pay in advance for several months if you knew you were going to be away from the game for some time.

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I hope there is a limit to how much you can pay in advance. Slap that in here with the amount of rent I've seen suggested here, and I could pay for several years worth of rent and quit tomorrow. Wouldn't really achieve much if others do the same, it's open up plots in a few years though, I guess.

Are any of the MMOs which have non-instanced housing and this system actually P2P by the way? I'd say my subscription fee should be the "rent", if anything. People who have quit should not be holding onto land that paying customers desire, that is just common sense. Slap that in and see how many plots it frees up, then lets talk about what else needs to be done. I'd still go with a "Have you visited your plot in X days?" system before adding a rent based system in game though, some of us actually do frequent our plots regularly anyway. I'm sure some would find visiting their plot to be just as much as a chore as paying rent on it, but those are people who definitely shouldn't have the land then. To be honest both systems can be quite easy to get around without actually using the content properly given how much surplus Gil most of us are carrying these days, I really don't think rent would do anything differently.

Biggest thing I think they should add is just making it so you get Gil back for abandoning. If you abandon your house, or it is abandoned by default due to you never visiting it, you should get a % of the cost back. Short of out right allowing us to sell plots as they are (which might have other issues, if we can buy multiple plots as well I could just hoard a bunch and set my own price...), that would be the best way to open up land. People not using them currently abandon and lose everything, unless they strike a deal with someone, but then the new buyer usually has a lot extra to pay. If you just got some Gil back by default it would be much easier for people not using them to abandon them.

The only issue with a simple subscription check is that it doesn't catch any of the players who have bought houses but just keep them around for either reselling or found that they aren't really that interested in housing and leave it empty.

It's a pretty significant portion of the homeowners in the game.. They're not unsubbed, they're just off doing other things and the house gets no love whatsoever.
First, these types of homeowners need a way out without losing their gil, so even implementing something like house trading would help a little bit so these types of homeowners can get their money back AND the homes can go to people who'll take better care of it.

It's not a one step fix all, there are many proactive things SE needs to do, but certainly sitting on it and releasing new wards once every year will not solve it.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

It's not a one step fix all, there are many proactive things SE needs to do, but certainly sitting on it and releasing new wards once every year will not solve it.

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This we can agree on at least. Personally I would, and in this order;

• Remove unsubscribed players from Wards outright. See how many that is.
• Implement a better abandoning/sales system to make selling on your plot a lot more appealing than it currently is. People with a 10m plot aren't going to want to abandon that 10m for nothing, currently the only thing they can do about this is negatively impact the new buyer, which puts buyers off anyway and is something someone has to actively look into doing. Being able to put a plot up for sale at a set price, with all the furniture/etc. included, but with the same depreciation rate, would be great. See how many people want to sell their plots on. (By the way, adding Rent just means people end up sinking more Gil into a plot, that is going to have a negative impact when it comes to trying to get people to let go of their land)
• Implement a system which automatically puts a plot up for sale if it is inactive for however many days, with a warning upon log in that this will happen in so many days. The the owner still owns the plot, so they can visit it and take down that sign if they want, if it sells instantly tough luck though. Since the same depreciation is in place though, new buyers may wait for it to drop, giving the current owner a bit more time. Similar to what they already had planned, but much more forgiving, see if it gets the same reaction.

I don't see what Rent would achieve that this doesn't, other than being an annoyance for everyone. Both have the same end result. People not using their land pass it on, with Rent they're doing so because it is annoying. With a proper sales system they're doing so because they'll get something out of it. All Rent does beyond that is add an extra chore to the game, one which would either be small enough to not really matter, or large enough that it just kills housing. They'd have to spend a fair amount of time just balancing how much to charge, which is only going to end up being more annoying for players. That annoyance might be enough to force a few people out of land, but I doubt it would be a significant amount. More likely it would just be incentive to do some Gardening.

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Originally Posted by Madjames

Life is not fair. Perhaps I have been lucky. Perhaps I just have been fortunate enough in my life to be paying for an MMORPG subscription for 18 years, STRAIGHT. Or perhaps some of you so called adults are CHOOSING not to pay your sub and instead putting it towards some other activity or hobby. For the first 7 years it was $10 a month, then it was $15, and for the past 10 years it has been $30 a month. I have NEVER missed a sub payment, not even when I went on vacation for 2-3 weeks straight because I had Family doing things for me and keeping my businesses in the game going while I was away. I was 10 years OLD and I had the motivation to make SURE MY SUB NEVER RAN OUT, EVER!!!

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I think its safe to say that the average person has more important things to consider to spend their time/money on when they have to make a choice.

Have you ever had to consider the price of your food/drink on a daily basis, or you wouldnt have enough money left?
Have you ever had to invest time in something and not have time left to spend on an online game?

Probably not, or you wouldnt be making this ridiculous argumentation.

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Originally Posted by Madjames

Do not sit there and give me this bullshit excuse of "I cant pay for the game for 6 months due to this or that happening IRL" If you cant scrap together $15 a month when your an adult yet a 10 year old kid made sure for the next 18 YEARS (This is up to and including today) his sub was paid for, you seriously have something wrong in your life and perhaps you shouldn't even be playing the game in the first place.

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A 10 year old child (typically) has only a small fraction of the expenses to pay for that someone living on their own does.
Not to mention they (typically) wouldnt have anything more important then a game to spend their time on.

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Originally Posted by Madjames

Then I got married and never missed the $30 a month payment for wow. Switched to FF11 and never missed the 30 dollars there, or in SWTOR and now Here.

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Wow or ff11 was never 30 a month to pay?

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Do you realise how stupid this sounds? Currently only 5% of the players in the game can have a house. How would implementing a system forcing the inactive among that 5% to relinquish their homes alienate more players than the current 95% that cannot get a house because they're all taken?

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Less stupid as the argument that every single person in a servers population even wants a house.

Only 5% of the players can have a house. But how many actually want one?

Incidentally a rent system would just make the housing system even more biased towards those with a lot of gil on hand.

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Originally Posted by Madjames

Then what they can do is share housing and allow people with access to refresh the house for you while you are away.

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Enabling house sharing (with its own storage like the FC chest) would be a much better solution to the housage shortage then adding rent or removing plot ownership.

This thread has really turned into a textbook example of the have/have not aspect of human psychology.

On one end of it, you've got the haves, who will do any kind of mental gymnastics they can possibly squeeze themselves through to justify the current system.

On the other end, you've got people who want to tear it down. I suppose I'm the latter, although in a rather different sense, as the system I'd like penalizes me as much as anyone else (plot taxation).

That, and even if I had a home this very moment, I'd still want to be taxed, and I'd still want my home to be something I could lose. That does make me less selfish than a lot of you. If that makes you mad, well, maybe you should reflect on why.

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

This thread has really turned into a textbook example of the have/have not aspect of human psychology.

On one end of it, you've got the haves, who will do any kind of mental gymnastics they can possibly squeeze themselves through to justify the current system.

On the other end, you've got people who want to tear it down. I suppose I'm the latter, although in a rather different sense, as the system I'd like penalizes me as much as anyone else (plot taxation).

That, and even if I had a home this very moment, I'd still want to be taxed, and I'd still want my home to be something I could lose. That does make me less selfish than a lot of you. If that makes you mad, well, maybe you should reflect on why.

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The big problem is INACTIVE people. SE needs to combat that and give inactive people that are probably not coming back their homes to us paying subscribers.

I agree that such a system would work in place of what I've suggested, James. Mostly. SE would just have to find another targeted gil sink.

For those of you who think I'm out of my mind regarding controlled deflation, ask yourself why repair costs have existed in basically every MMO since ever. Think back on every game of a similar style, through all your years as a gamer, that had ways of destroying the currency you were magically producing. It is, almost without exception, every single one of them.

Comparisons to actual economic systems are misguided at best, and ludicrous at worst. MMO economics are their own beast, and they have one thing that makes them behave overwhelmingly different from the kinds you guys have no doubt studied in class - they give every "citizen" within them a license to print as much money as they want. MMO economies start in a state of catastrophic, ceiling-less inflation, and the only thing that keeps them from falling apart after mere weeks of operation is the relentless destruction of currency, weighted to target the top end (i.e., high levels).

So, while after some reflection, I can accept that you don't want the gil destruction attached to your homes. But you guys need to accept that it has to happen, and that it needs to hit the top end more aggressively than the low-end. So where do you want it, then? It has to be somewhere.

I have a prediction: Airships are going to be the next big gil killer. Why? Because it's something only the highest level of players are going to have a use for, and because it's a luxury good, just like housing. It's a perfect target.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

This thread has really turned into a textbook example of the have/have not aspect of human psychology.

On one end of it, you've got the haves, who will do any kind of mental gymnastics they can possibly squeeze themselves through to justify the current system.

On the other end, you've got people who want to tear it down. I suppose I'm the latter, although in a rather different sense, as the system I'd like penalizes me as much as anyone else (plot taxation).

That, and even if I had a home this very moment, I'd still want to be taxed, and I'd still want my home to be something I could lose. That does make me less selfish than a lot of you. If that makes you mad, well, maybe you should reflect on why.

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I think this post is a textbook of human psychology, specifically projection. You left out the part where the system you want would also BENEFIT you greatly, but it's easy to forget that since you're not selfish.

Ah, Taru. My reading comprehension disabled friend. How can you call me selfish, when I want my gil destroyed, so that players beneath me can compete with me more effectively?

Truly, you do not deserve lengthy responses from me, unlike many other users here. You just don't seem to want to take in information that doesn't suit you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

This thread has really turned into a textbook example of the have/have not aspect of human psychology.
On one end of it, you've got the haves, who will do any kind of mental gymnastics they can possibly squeeze themselves through to justify the current system.
On the other end, you've got people who want to tear it down.

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Except Housing is the only aspect of the game that is limited in content that falls into haves and have-nots.
Every single player can do quests to level up
Every single player can participate in hunts without a linkshell
Every single player can access a free company with no hurdles
Even something as arduous as getting Dreadwyrm gear or the Relic weapons can be achieved with enough time and effort, as everyone can access it.


However, Housing is nothing like the above. It wouldn't matter if everyone on the server had hundreds of millions of gil, there physically is not enough houses to go around. Which then actually limits players from experiencing content associated with housing.

This is probably why players are upset. There is actual content that is and will be missed by a vast majority of players not due to "I can't grind enough gil/am too lazy", it's the reality that having gil does not mean you get a house.

I agree with that, Voldemort, entirely. How do you think the problem would be best solved?

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

Ah, Taru. My reading comprehension disabled friend.

...

You just don't seem to want to take in information that doesn't suit you.

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Again, projection.

If that's truly what you want, then just destroy some of your gil. Buy a bunch of crap from NPCs, then sell it back. Then you can declare yourself the least selfish player ever.

You think things should be one way, use your mental gymnastics to not only convince yourself that it's the best way, but that anyone that doesn't have gil and agree with you is less unselfish than you.

To reiterate the points that you skipped over with your reading disability:

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Excessive taxation with the money going into a hole = deflation

Deflation is bad for an economy, and the wealthy will be the only ones thriving. Small, steady inflation makes for a very healthy economy.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Handouts to the rich aren't going to trickle down substantially, but penalties to them sure will.

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I just want there to be a market for housing, currently people sitting on plots might be willing to get rid of them if they were able to sell them (and then subsequently move into medium or large plots) on the open market intact for fair prices for instance I would happily sell my decked out medium plot if someone offered me the right price so I could buy myself a large personal house. Secondly I would love the idea to allow access to any other people to use the plots other than yourself, I haven't used my gardening plots since the introduction of chocobo colouring and would definitely be happy to share my plot with someone who would make use of them and the chocobo stables.

People who already own property should not be penalised due to lack of supply but should be encouraged to make extra gil and move into a larger property. Currently the lack of selling intact homes and a host of furniture which is non removable makes people reluctant to sell or move properties without the huge cost of replacing non movable furniture. Some people may be bored with their houses or not use them anymore and would rather sell them intact to recoup the cost that they had invested rather than just collapse it into nothing. Allowing properties to be tradable (but restricting ownership to one personal property per person only) would help a tiny bit towards the massive undersupply until square can provide more for everyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

On one end of it, you've got the haves, who will do any kind of mental gymnastics they can possibly squeeze themselves through to justify the current system.

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Hope that isn't directed at me, because I'm against both the current system and turning housing into Tenancy Simulator.

Still waiting for someone to point out the big difference between what I've suggested and Rent. The only real one seems to be that Rent favours the mega-rich, which.... lol.