dungeon helpers

To be honest, you all seem to have the same argument. Healer's main job is to heal. If they are on top of the incoming damage, know what they are doing and are comfortable with it, they can damage. Healers should not be pressured to damage. But they don't need to shy away from it either if they feel they're ok with it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Back to the context of this thread where DPS players are healing because they think the SCH is incompetent. The fairy is doing most of the healing in a low level dungeon, and you'd have to try pretty hard to get the fairy to not heal the tank, since the tank is the one taking most of the damage. The fairy can't compensate for poison status, or when the entire party has taken equal amounts of damage. If YOU the healer are actually doing your job, the DPS players should have no reason to try and heal.

That's the entire point of the argument in this thread. Is that bad healers DPS when they should be healing, and bad DPS heal when they should be trying to avoid taking damage in the first place. They are stepping outside of their roles at the expense the party.

Here's a reality-check that Cynfael and Spoekes keep not getting. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them wrong. If you can not justify stepping outside your role in the party, then you don't do it. Your angle is more like "if you're not doing everything to maximize dps, then stop playing."

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I've been trying to avoid jumping onto here for a bit just to see how this pans out, but I think I'm going to bring up two points on the bolded section of your quote.

(1) This quote also applies to yourself, Kisai. You disagree with them but it doesn't make them wrong either.

(2) While I don't disagree with your stance, I do note that you only speak half the truth too.

"Healer's primary intent is to keep your party healthy and fighting." I agree with this.

However, let's approach this a different way.

Healer DPS reduces the amount of HP required to complete a fight. Let's say an encounter requires 200 HPS. If Healer DPS reduces a fight by 30 seconds, they've now reduced the amount of healing required by 6,000 HP. So, by contributing DPS in parts of the fight with low healing requirements, a healer is now reducing overall healing requirement via their DPS. This is indirect healing.

And no, healer contribution to DPS isn't small when the healer in question is playing properly. Can it be? Yes, it can, but it's no where near "3%" or "less than 8% of a regular DPS" as you like have noted in other forum posts that claim it to be if the healer knows their stuff.

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My beef with your mindset is you're giving advice to encourage healers to play "completely average". The DPS advice is for a higher level play and will help elevate the healer to the next tier of skill once they can master the art of stance dancing. With that being said, what will then elevate that healer even further is knowing WHEN to stance dance. There will be instances a healer can go ham on DPS and there will be instances where a healer can only really heal and dig their party out of the huge hole. The best healers will have the ability to gauge their party and respond appropriately.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I've been trying to avoid jumping onto here for a bit just to see how this pans out...

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At least when you respond, you actually make a clear point. However the overtly negative conversations that happen on this forum, are always between the same two people, and it seems that nobody actually reads the post with the intent finding common ground, but rather try to frame the other person as talking out of their butt. I will not shut up about something just because they want me to.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

My beef with your mindset is you're giving advice to encourage healers to play "completely average". The DPS advice is for a higher level play and will help elevate the healer to the next tier of skill once they can master the art of stance dancing. With that being said, what will then elevate that healer even further is knowing WHEN to stance dance. There will be instances a healer can go ham on DPS and there will be instances where a healer can only really heal and dig their party out of the huge hole. The best healers will have the ability to gauge their party and respond appropriately.

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I'm suggesting that players don't go into the dungeons with the mindset that just because a skill is available that they must be using it whenever possible. The Minmaxing player is always a poor player when partnered with less experienced players since such players aren't happy unless everyone is minmaxing like they are. It's not the healers job to make up for weakness in the DPS players, and it's not the DPS players job to make up for weakness in the healer. There's things like Enmity to consider before using healing magic, or you end up tanking.

There same 5 or so people keep talking past each other on this forum. Go look at other forums and you will see similar statements from Tanks about letting the Healer or DPS tank if they step out of their role too. Comparing low level to Coil and CT like they are equivalent is just faulty logic to begin with, comparing newbies with munchkins.

Kisai, whenever I make a point here it seems to me that you hastily construct a straw man and then attack it instead.

Saying that healers should use their full kits does not mean telling them to throw the kitchen sink at every encounter regardless of whether or not it makes sense.

Being a true "min/maxer" means playing your role to the fullest within the context of your current situation. In no way is it efficient or fun to deliberately cause less experienced players to fail or even just to waste time and energy by being rude to them (that's called griefing and is an entirely different conversation).

About the only common ground that we seem to have is agreeing that healing is the primary responsibility, but even there I sometimes think that you believe that I and others of similar opinion are advocating healer DPS to the exclusion of common sense.

I moved things from the quoted post around a bit to better go with my thoughts and points.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's the entire point of the argument in this thread. Is that bad healers DPS when they should be healing, and bad DPS heal when they should be trying to avoid taking damage in the first place. They are stepping outside of their roles at the expense the party.

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Isn't this what I, and many others, have already said multiple times? I don't get why you need to point this out when I'm pretty sure basically everyone in this thread has already made this point. Nobody is disagreeing with this point, the only thing anyone disagrees on is when a healer should be healing. For example, your point that someone who is hurt 10-15% for WHM or 30% for SCH makes them a "heal-able" target, and that a healer shouldn't be DPSing if there is a heal-able target, is debatable. It is up to the individual to decide what they consider "heal-able" after analyzing how well the Tank takes damage, understanding the dungeon or raid and how the group works and plays. And no one in this thread is stating that a healer should primarily DPS, or ignore their main role.

And no the main point of this thread was, and is, about DPS and Tanks not understanding the SCH role and the fairies, and not trusting healers to do their job.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Here's a reality-check that Cynfael and Spoekes keep not getting. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them wrong. If you can not justify stepping outside your role in the party, then you don't do it. Your angle is more like "if you're not doing everything to maximize dps, then stop playing."

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The thing is is that it is hard to agree with you on a lot of things because you make everything black and white, or state it as such, when healing and FFXIV in general is much more "grey" in how it is to be played. And just because someone is disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are saying you are wrong. Not exactly. Except, of course, when you are.

Neither of them, as far as I can tell, have stated that you shouldn't play just because you aren't DPSing. What many of us are stating is that it is inefficient, and ineffective, to ignore the fact that healers can dps. That is more than enough reason to justify stepping out of your "role" to balance dps and healing. (I disagree that this is stepping "outside of your role" when a healer does some DPS, but that's just my opinion) You seem to assume that healers who DPS are bad, or dps more than they heal, or sacrifice their party for DPS. Or something.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Back to the context of this thread where DPS players are healing because they think the SCH is incompetent. The fairy is doing most of the healing in a low level dungeon, and you'd have to try pretty hard to get the fairy to not heal the tank, since the tank is the one taking most of the damage. The fairy can't compensate for poison status, or when the entire party has taken equal amounts of damage. If YOU the healer are actually doing your job, the DPS players should have no reason to try and heal.

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Yes. In low level dungeons she will keep the tank alive most of the time, and even then it depends on how many mobs the tank grabs and how well they are geared. We also have to look at how well the DPS is dealing with Aggro. But no one is saying that the Fairy can't keep the tank alive. I was pointing out, in the context of your broad statement with little context as to what it was referring too, that the fairy will that the tank die. Your statement seemed to be stated "in general".

What you are saying here is basically what I said and I don't understand why you are restating it as if you are the one who is making the point. The fairy can't deal with status aliments (poison), the fairy can't deal with multiple targets very well, and the fairy doesn't distinguish between tank and DPS. All points I made to pointing out that no one can expect the fairy to keep the tank alive all the time. And again, I was pointing out the fairy, alone, keeping the tank alive and stating how it isn't actually correct to state that it will for most content. Which means I was obviously stating that a healer should heal when they need to and not always rely on Eos/Selene.

As a side point, I've only ever encountered one Tank that would have died within the 5 seconds of CS cooldown. And he didn't even hold hate, and was way under geared. If any one goes in assuming that a tank isn't going to be able to last 5 seconds then I think they have to look at their trust issues and their ability to expect other's to do well at their role.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

At least when you respond, you actually make a clear point. However the overtly negative conversations that happen on this forum, are always between the same two people, and it seems that nobody actually reads the post with the intent finding common ground, but rather try to frame the other person as talking out of their butt. I will not shut up about something just because they want me to.

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I don't want you to shut up, instead I want you to actually make a clear point yourself. I am still very confused about some of what you are saying but you seem to refuse to clarify.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There same 5 or so people keep talking past each other on this forum. Go look at other forums and you will see similar statements from Tanks about letting the Healer or DPS tank if they step out of their role too. Comparing low level to Coil and CT like they are equivalent is just faulty logic to begin with, comparing newbies with munchkins.

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There is a clear difference between Tanking, Healing and DPSing. Making a comparison to Healers DPSing to that of DPS or Healers tanking is ludicrous. Though I will state that I have tanked a few lowbie dungeons as a healer before when the tank left, was bad, or got angry for some reason or another. But a healer or dps that pulls hate consistently and then the tank "lets" them tank, to make a point that they cant and should stop pulling hate, is different than a healer who does some dps. Pulling hate isn't "stepping out of their role" its them not managing aggro in their own role, or a tank not holding it well enough. I am confused at why you brought this up when it has nothing to do with this thread at all.

No one is comparing low levels with high levels. Except for that low levels should learn things for higher level content. Otherwise they will just be "average" or worse.

i just got my WHM to level 30. i still haven't learned to avoid boss mechanics because i generally have to heal and because my computer lags, i get affected by the boss attack right before i finish my heal. meaning i spend more mana healing something i couldn't avoid because i haven't learned the signs, and generally try to keep a distance from the tank. to prevent myself from being meleed.

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Originally Posted by Umbriere

i just got my WHM to level 30. i still haven't learned to avoid boss mechanics because i generally have to heal and because my computer lags, i get affected by the boss attack right before i finish my heal. meaning i spend more mana healing something i couldn't avoid because i haven't learned the signs, and generally try to keep a distance from the tank. to prevent myself from being meleed.

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It took me a while to realize it isn't really a computer lag issue with those zones of damage. You get the damage once the cast is finished and that, apparently, doesn't happen at the time the projection leaves the floor. It's a bit before then. It helped me to think of it as that I need to be out of those area way before the projection is gone and that has actually helped me a lot. Once I got that in my mind, I was able to more easily avoid those things and save my mana.

For a minute there I thought this thread was about me.

I have a similar story where I was playing on Black Mage and using Physick to heal because I was not satisfied with the way the White Mage in my party was healing.
I got yelled at because of it. Was almost an argument, but completely 1 sided as I just decided to ignore the person. The other 2 people in the party were silent and didn't seem to care either way. This continued on for most of the dungeon until the tank accidentally pulled a little too much and I said to myself "alright then let's see what you can do" and stopped healing. I didn't write that out of course, but that's what I was thinking to myself. Of course, the tank died, and then the healer died too, but I managed to clear the group with the other DPS with some well timed Sleeps and Physicks.

I couldn't help myself but chime in with a "You can handle the healing yourself, hm?". I couldn't help it, I was being flamed for the last 15-20 minutes. After that the healer left.
This was a cool story, bro.

What's the whole point? Well, you can't force your playstyle onto others, any more then they can force their playstyles onto you. Unless someone is doing something that severely impacts your chances of successfully completing the duty, you might want to just leave them alone. Suggestions won't hurt if you make them politely, but just remember that you can't force them to do what you want. Most people don't like being told what to do. After all, who died and made you captain? Personally I've started using the word "consider" a lot, as in, "consider healer lb" or "consider playing mage's ballad". That way I can truthfully say I've done my part in suggesting a better way without seeming like I'm taking charge and being rude.

In the end it shouldn't matter to you if a DPS is overhealing. As a Scholar, you are probably able to solo the entire dungeon by yourself. Just look on the bright side, if they are healing for a lot, you have to do it less, and you can DPS to your heart's content. That 4th person is not even necessary to have there, so you can just imagine being down a person. You can still complete the duty.

You make some good suggestions, Aerial.

i would consider, though, that while you can't force someone to play well (just as you couldn't force the healer in your story to be competent), there are behaviors that really inconvenience the group and should be actively discouraged; unnecessary DPS healing is one of them. Even putting sheer DPS efficiency aside, a caster can drag an encounter out or even cause a wipe by allowing a large pull to outlive tank and healer cooldowns.

If something is wrong in a party, I'll make a polite request (e.g. I have a "Please sing Foe's when you can" macro for BRDs who sing nothing, ever. I'll even type a quick thanks if they comply). If the problem doesn't get fixed, I'll drop it since stopping to have an argument could waste even more time. If it's a severe problem that causes a wipe (e.g. DPS ignoring their jobs or the healer not realizing they are healing in CS), then my point is proven and the offending player either shapes up or is kicked if truly trolling.

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

For a minute there I thought this thread was about me.

I have a similar story where I was playing on Black Mage and using Physick to heal because I was not satisfied with the way the White Mage in my party was healing.
I got yelled at because of it. Was almost an argument, but completely 1 sided as I just decided to ignore the person. The other 2 people in the party were silent and didn't seem to care either way. This continued on for most of the dungeon until the tank accidentally pulled a little too much and I said to myself "alright then let's see what you can do" and stopped healing. I didn't write that out of course, but that's what I was thinking to myself. Of course, the tank died, and then the healer died too, but I managed to clear the group with the other DPS with some well timed Sleeps and Physicks.

I couldn't help myself but chime in with a "You can handle the healing yourself, hm?". I couldn't help it, I was being flamed for the last 15-20 minutes. After that the healer left.
This was a cool story, bro.

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From an outside view, and a strong bias for the healer's side, it reads like you were getting nervous because you were not healed what you felt was fast enough.
Especially on WHM who has less dots and cure II I tend to do this too, to keep dpsing a GCD longer and maybe make full use of cure II.
Without question, however, that guy talking you down all the time for this is most likely an idiot.

Making fun of the healer not able to fix the mistake the tank made and take it as a point for the first situation is kind of silly, but I guess it was deserved then ^^

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

What's the whole point? Well, you can't force your playstyle onto others, any more then they can force their playstyles onto you. Unless someone is doing something that severely impacts your chances of successfully completing the duty, you might want to just leave them alone. Suggestions won't hurt if you make them politely, but just remember that you can't force them to do what you want. Most people don't like being told what to do. After all, who died and made you captain? Personally I've started using the word "consider" a lot, as in, "consider healer lb" or "consider playing mage's ballad". That way I can truthfully say I've done my part in suggesting a better way without seeming like I'm taking charge and being rude.

In the end it shouldn't matter to you if a DPS is overhealing. As a Scholar, you are probably able to solo the entire dungeon by yourself. Just look on the bright side, if they are healing for a lot, you have to do it less, and you can DPS to your heart's content. That 4th person is not even necessary to have there, so you can just imagine being down a person. You can still complete the duty

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Yeah that's the right apporach.

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

Well, you can't force your playstyle onto others, any more then they can force their playstyles onto you. Unless someone is doing something that severely impacts your chances of successfully completing the duty, you might want to just leave them alone.

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No, I can't force my style onto others. However, if there is no need for the extra healing (and in my case there was no need for the healing -- no one died or even got below 70% HP) then you're not living up to your end of the bargain. You're dead weight. I'm doing what I signed up to do plus more. You aren't. Why should the group carry you? Is that fair to the group?

As for your story: I disagree completely. What the tank did was his own fault, not the healers. The healer was overwhelmed. If you'd stopped healing on a normal pack of mobs and you wiped, that would be a different matter. This was out of her control. I don't know any really good healer who hasn't wiped because the tank pulled too many. It wasn't your healers fault.

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Originally Posted by Umbriere

i just got my WHM to level 30. i still haven't learned to avoid boss mechanics because i generally have to heal and because my computer lags, i get affected by the boss attack right before i finish my heal. meaning i spend more mana healing something i couldn't avoid because i haven't learned the signs, and generally try to keep a distance from the tank. to prevent myself from being meleed.

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I find this affects healing magic more than DPS magic, but the second you see an AOE cone, move. If you wait until the cast completes, you are assured of being hit.

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Originally Posted by Alisi

It took me a while to realize it isn't really a computer lag issue with those zones of damage. You get the damage once the cast is finished and that, apparently, doesn't happen at the time the projection leaves the floor. It's a bit before then. It helped me to think of it as that I need to be out of those area way before the projection is gone and that has actually helped me a lot. Once I got that in my mind, I was able to more easily avoid those things and save my mana.

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If you target the boss monsters, if you see them casting something, move. If you complete any casting before their cast is complete, you're guaranteed to be hit. Unless...


Amdapor Keep Psycheflayer'a golems, Anantaboga have a "hide behind something" to avoid AOE. Then there's Manxome Molaa Ja Ja (Wanderer's Palace hard), Boogeyman (Amdapor keep Hard), Angra Mainyu (WoD) who you can avoid one AOE by turning around. In both of these cases you can just keep casting as long as you're in a safe position.

There are multiple bosses that involve hiding behind something to avoid a party-wide/raid-wide wipe, but again, in those cases you can just continue to cast from behind the object as long as the object doesn't block line of sight with what you want to cast target.