I don't want to use parsers

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Originally Posted by XxSliphxX

If you are the type of person that is against parsers all that tells me is you are probably the same person that really needs one.

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And this tells me you are probably the same person those against parsers worry will abuse it.

Even if that were the case, the argument is basically...

Oh no, someone is being a jerk about parsers, I guess there's nothing I can do, oh wait, I'll just block him.

vs.

Oh no, we have no clue what is going on in the combat log, and no definitive way to improve our dps or get an objective rating of our performance, oh wait we can...either do something that is against ToS or cry in a corner...?

Yea.

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Originally Posted by XxSliphxX

And as someone said before earlier. People are so quick to call out tanks and healers if they are bad but heaven forbid we call out dps? How is that fair? Especially if the people trying to call out tanks and healers are bad themselves i'd like to know that info.

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*Laughs* I can attest to this... all I can say is that there was a BLM in WoD who was raging at me because he stood in AoE and died before I had a chance to run across the room to heal him, and one of my FC mates in the run with me told me he was parsing something around 120dps for the whole five headed dragon fight and the first boss, as well. I'm assuming that is really bad since they all laughed about it. Yes, it isn't fair healers and tanks can be raged at but 'oh no, we can't hurt the sub-par dps' peoples' feelings...

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

*Laughs* I can attest to this... all I can say is that there was a BLM in WoD who was raging at me because he stood in AoE and died before I had a chance to run across the room to heal him, and one of my FC mates in the run with me told me he was parsing something around 120dps for the whole five headed dragon fight and the first boss, as well. I'm assuming that is really bad since they all laughed about it. Yes, it isn't fair healers and tanks can be raged at but 'oh no, we can't hurt the sub-par dps' peoples' feelings...

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I fully agree with that train of thought.

And yes, 120 is absolutely in need of improvement; it's almost unbelievably bad. Just about the only way to be that low in that fight, considering the minimum ilvl requirement, is to spend most of it on the floor or AFK. If this player was actively playing the entire time and still put out that number, then there's a case for needing parsers :P I seriously doubt that they are aware of how much they could improve.

To add to Cynfael's point, a "decent" paladin tank with i125-130 should be putting out 170ish DPS. Decent Blm should put out 300-400, and good ones push 450+ depending on the fight and presence/lack of echo. 120 is a DPS rate achieved by people below lvl 50, let alone ilvl 90...... A friend of mine went into DF t6 a few months ago and he was out-DPSing the other two Blm combined. I think it is a combination of ignorance and apathy.

Do parsers get abused? Without a doubt. Are parsers a great way to inspire improvement and see if people are trying to get carried? Also without a doubt. A parser is a tool, it all depends on how you use it, just like any other tool. A gun can be used to kill in cold blood, or to protect people. There are millions more examples. Pick your favorite.

I'd say that 120 DPS is around freshly dinged 50 in full AF gear or so.

I now got this sudden urge to go and test that with a GC weapon. Maybe tomorrow.

Lol - 120 is what I was told. Though, from what I remember of the fight, the BLM may have been afk the whole time and only getting killed by AoE woke him up enough to complain about heals... I've seen worse in WoD (like people dying in first few seconds on purpose and respawning to be locked out and saying "Oops!" while they sit at the entrance the entire fight.... >.>

A private in-game parser is the way to go. For a start, it could be far more accurate than any add-ons PC users have. A summary provided after each battle to the user alone, they can share or not at their discretion. Just as it is now, if anyone is measuring your DPS then using it against you, you are free to report them.

it wouldn't be bad, i think that people can 'choose' to show their parsers. good players pushing their dps high enough shouldn't have any trouble letting others know and those who aren't can look at their parsers as a guideline on whether they need improvements or not. Otherwise, yes it does open for more abusive trolls to roll in.

What your looking for is the reason why parsers aren't allowed. The data should be used to help people get better not to see who isn't doing their job.

I'll agree that dps is the only role that can be hidden if they are doing a completely terrible job So maybe a personal parser would help, or maybe a parser that only the leader of a preformed party can see, or maybe if it's preformed allow everyone to see. random people parsing everyone seems bad.I don't think there is enough benefit to outweigh the harassment the more casual players will get.

Thing is dps cant just read skills and do max dps. There are optimal rotations that a casual player would likely never strive for but that applies to more than just dps. I've seen off tanks that only autoattack or healers that have ungodly overheal percents but the content was cleared right so no problem right? Well no. They can play suboptimal and all is well if you clear but the terrible dps would be shunned regardless of the clear.

I don't think people advocating for a parser want to use it to abuse others or shun them, I'd hope. Personally, if I'm on NIN or BRD, I LOVE knowing my numbers so ask for them so I can compare myself to others and find out if I am pulling my weight and how i can get better. I found out I was a lil low on NIN, and that prompted me to look at how I play and change some things in my rotation to get up to par with where I thought I should be. On WHM, I can tell without a parser, really when a dps is doing low, and even account for them having to avoid AoE (melee) or sing (bard). It is especially obvious if they request huge pulls but those pulls take 2/3 of my MP due to how long they take to down.

I think a parser is a tool people would use to better themselves, even though a few mean ones would abuse it to call out bad dps. Also, I'll add that I don't think parsers even really have a place in content you're doing with PUGs, and therefore, like someone said maybe should only be given for pre-made groups. If you're with pugs, there should be no expectation of optimal performance, I'd think, rather just casual clears ^^

No in a way they do use it to shun people because they use it as an excuse to block the good console players by using their own PC master race mentality.

How do you block good console players by looking at their dps...? If they do well on console all the more power to them. If they suck then...they suck, doesn't matter if its console or pc.

As for why its not allowed, its not allowed technically because its a 3rd party tool.

SE doesn't care at all about parsers. There is, however, also no reason for them to create an inhouse one. No mmo has one, and theres no point. It'll arrive when addons arrive. So...this discussion is kinda moot.

If you guys support the allowance of parsers, please consider heading to the "User Interface" subfourum and showing support in my thread about Addons in Heavensward. The most likely addition of DPS meters in game will come through addons! But if the devs don't believe players WANT ADDONS they may never work on getting this implemented! Please show your support of DPS parsers and other addons!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...vensward/page2

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I'd say that 120 DPS is around freshly dinged 50 in full AF gear or so.

I now got this sudden urge to go and test that with a GC weapon. Maybe tomorrow.

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http://i.imgur.com/bYIHfKo.png

So for funzies i went and tested with that. The weapon is 1h i55 GC. I got 188.55 DPS on a 3:31 parse ending on B3, only 1x RS for opener and no auto-attacks.

Important tests. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In the early days of my FCOB static, there were times where I was beating 1-2 dps during runs on my warrior, in part because I had full pentamelds and they were still gearing up. We didn't kick and remake our static.... rather our dps stepped up over time and continue to do better and better.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

People will be assholes, parsers or not. The world isn't instantly a better place because we do not have parsers. We're basically not being given a feature because people will feel other "bad" people will call them out, which they already do, so the whole idea is redundant.

This is like saying there are bad people outside, better stay inside. The argument is old and doesn't hold ground anymore.

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I never used it as an argument to dismiss the existence of parsers and even pointed out the benefits of them, so it's not my concern whether or not it "holds ground" at all.

Evidence has shown that access to a parser doesn't improve the vast majority of a player base. Bad players will continue to be bad, despite evidence showing just how bad they truly are.

If nothing else, World of Warcraft is an excellent example of this. Addons are almost universally embraced by that community, and people STILL pull garbage dps. People have had access to parsers in WoW since Vanilla, that's ten years of garbage players not improving despite access to a resource that explains, IN DETAIL, how garbage they really are.

In fact, that's my point entirely, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. There are VOLUMES written on optimal gearing, stat weights, theorycrafting, rotation, openers etc etc.. Some people spend countless hours providing knowledge to players who will never read it. If a bad player wants to improve, the knowledge is there for them, and if they don't? No amount of in-game resources will change that.

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Originally Posted by FreyrPrime

snippity

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The people who refuse to improve will continue to do so, but if you are trying to improve then parsers are very helpful. It's one thing to do your research and another thing entirely to see how well you can apply it.

Also, while this is just based on my personal experience, I've seen a lot of people in this game who do just seem genuinely confused. Adding parsers definitely wouldn't magically make everyone care, but I think there's a decently sized group of people in this game who would care if they weren't blissfully unaware of how bad they're doing (maybe since this is marketed towards 1st time MMO players, or maybe my experiences just aren't indicative of the majority, who knows). Either way, it's always helpful for the people who are actively trying to improve. If it happens to encourage other people to try harder then I consider that a bonus.

Yesss, this game is like vanilla wow in that noone knew what they were doing, everything worth doing was painstakingly difficult (simply for the sake of being difficult) and nothing was known so everyone's just groping in the dark.

Parsers would be a pretty big light in the darkness for all of us.

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Originally Posted by FreyrPrime

snippity swoogy

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The difference is that in WoW, you can be called out for being garbage. On FFXIV, we're not allowed to hurt your feelings, lest we risk the wrath of the GMs.

I was doing a PUG Mythic Highmaul a few days back. We were wiping because we weren't being healed through the AoE phases. Check the parse, noticed two of the healers were playing terribly, replaced them, beat it. Wow, whodathunkit.

To be honest with how technically inept some people like me are, I'd love in-game parsers so I don't have to play around installing something as ridiculously unintuitive as the ACT parser+overlay, which doesn't even work full screen after I've gone through more than half an hour installing and setting that one thing up.

I want my weak auras 2 in this game.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

So, my question is: Without parsers, since they're illegal and to be honest they're not that clarifying, how could we make this better? Do you think some kind of scoreboard like the PvP ones would work? As in, total damage after the fight ends?
What does everyone think? Because, I don't wanna use parsers, but I don't wanna carry people either.

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You want to improve your own performance (or your static people or people you know) or just some random people from DF/PF? If you want latter - to harass people because they have weak performance - it's an offense that might lead to problems with GMs.
There are an indirect ways to check performance - if you know rotation of given class - you can just look what people are doing. Hate order is also a good indicator of clearly underperforming people. But discrimination based on such criteria formally not permitted in the very same way as parsers do - so if you want to silently breach 1 rule, why not breach 2 of them and just use parser.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

The difference is that in WoW, you can be called out for being garbage. On FFXIV, we're not allowed to hurt your feelings, lest we risk the wrath of the GMs.

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People do it in PF parties all the time, they just do not state the source of information, simply "you are bad, we'll replace you".

Parsers r jus bad, dont want them. Really dont wanna see people in PF saying do X amount of damage or be kicked it wud jus ruin the community which for the most part is way better than most other mmos imo.
I would however like a personal dps meter only i can see so i can take it upon myself to improve my rotation and damage output

The only reason calling people out for poor performance is troublesome right now because all parsers are third party software and as such against the terms of service. Addon support is already being worked on (with the most recent news I am aware of being http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ff-.../1100-6425730/ ) and at that point someone might just develop a simple DPS meter addon that will resolve the problem of not being able to get DPS numbers without third party software at which point this discussion will be rather pointless.

How accurate an addon DPS meter would be is a little questionable since some damage over time effects currently aren't being tracked by the battle log and third party parsers just get that data by reading game memory which addons more than likely won't have access to. As such, unless they fix battle log being rather incomplete by the time there's addon support, DPS meter addons would probably spit out really inaccurate numbers. However, it would make for a great excuse for calling someone out for low DPS. Earlier last year someone got a warning for mentioning parsers in chat: http://i.imgur.com/OX7Z2yt.jpg
Now imagine if a DPS addon, even a very inaccurate one, existed. That GM would no longer have anything to warn this person for if he said that he got the numbers from a DPS addon and of course, nothing is stopping him from also running a more accurate third party parser to get real numbers from and saying that the numbers are from an addon when someone asks.

Edit: Of course, it still all depends on how you go about telling people that they are performing poorly. Telling someone "you're shit go uninstall" is going to get you warned/banned no matter whether or not you tell them the numbers on a parser. Having the DPS numbers readily available won't make people any more toxic because toxic behavior is going to get them banned either way.

The only reason this is even a problem is because the combat log is just, the most useless crap ever. Pretty much the worst out of any modern MMO.

Addons are gonna be useless until they make the combat log useful.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

op main post.

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I do believe players like you are the main reason because we do not have parsers.
Ok, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying you're not right or you are a bad player or your reason to want a parse are illegitimate. But I think SE do not want to give one more reason ( a good and legitimate reason or not) to players to kick each other. It's bad for business. Bad players and good players pay that exactly same subscription.

One more time: I'm not saying you're wrong! But, in my opinion SE do not want players with this kind of behavior. :(

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Originally Posted by DSaint

I do believe players like you are the main reason because we do not have parsers.
Ok, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying you're not right or you are a bad player or your reason to want a parse are illegitimate. But I think SE do not want to give one more reason ( a good and legitimate reason or not) to players to kick each other. It's bad for business. Bad players and good players pay that exactly same subscription.

One more time: I'm not saying you're wrong! But, in my opinion SE do not want players with this kind of behavior. :(

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They will kick players with or without parses. Go into turn 10. The new player has watched the boss video, but what the boss video doesn't tell them is that people sneak by adds before the boss. The tank goes to sneak without saying anything, new player follows him, stuff aggroes and tank flips his crap and wants to kick the new guy for messing up the sneak.

Same goes for sons and daughters, the video from MTQ just says to kill the adds on one side before moving to the next. Common practice is to kill the daughters first then the sons so once again another kickable offense in the dutyfinder.

Really, parses don't make any difference with intolerance by people for ignorant/new players even in spaces designed for new players such as dutyfinder (any person with expectations should be using partyfinder premades or use his guild static anyways).

In fact, add ons help far more to mitigate ignorant play than hiding them. If you have something like DBM which broadcasts the goal of each phase of a fight and warns you for debuffs and what to do about them like in WoW, ignorant players have a lesser chance of burdening a group.

Parses are a good thing. Any tool that facilitates information processing for faster and more efficient decision making and helps with raid awareness is a GOOD thing for everyone.

Intolerant assholes will continue to be such with or without parses. Tools don't change the attitude/personality of a player.

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Originally Posted by jack891

I would however like a personal dps meter only i can see so i can take it upon myself to improve my rotation and damage output

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Information is useless in a vacuum. You would never know if your personal dps is good or not if it is not shared with others. DPS meters must be group visible for them to be effective at all.

The problem with Parsers is that certain jobs will absolutely do more dps than others given different situations. It's not right if the introduction of a parser leads to players forcing out certain classes because god forbid they can't do as much damage as a Monk with a stationary target. No, in fact I'm pretty sure that the introduction of an in-client Parser will only lead to arguments over players who aren't putting out the numbers. There's a reason why Bards can't do the same damage as a Monk and honestly, I'd be appalled if they changed the game so that they could.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

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Anyone who is really worth playing with at all already knows the job differences in dps potential and no one is asking for devs to make all classes same dps output. Also, please assume half your party is already using a "pen and paper" to check things, so many players already know these things.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

(I know, I know, I shouldn't expect much of random people)

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Not everyone outside of your damn social circle is going to be bad.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

The problem with Parsers is that certain jobs will absolutely do more dps than others given different situations. It's not right if the introduction of a parser leads to players forcing out certain classes because god forbid they can't do as much damage as a Monk with a stationary target. No, in fact I'm pretty sure that the introduction of an in-client Parser will only lead to arguments over players who aren't putting out the numbers. There's a reason why Bards can't do the same damage as a Monk and honestly, I'd be appalled if they changed the game so that they could.

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That argument just falls so short, classes are pretty well balanced in this game and the only reason to take one of the other is raid utility (Dragon kick/Peircing debuff/songs/extra res/more burst/goad/trick attack)


Not to mention a bad dragoon will never outparse a good monk, and vice versa. It doesn't come down to the class in this game in terms of DPS so players won't be forced to play a certain class, if both the dragoon and monk in your party are going all out and maxing out their dps and the dragoon parses 10-20 above the monk, no one is going to get annoyed or care, if however the dragoon is parsing 350 and the monk is parsing 600 then you know full well it isn't a class issue, it's a player issue and that's the information a parser provides.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

That argument just falls so short, classes are pretty well balanced in this game and the only reason to take one of the other is raid utility (Dragon kick/Peircing debuff/songs/extra res/more burst/goad/trick attack)


Not to mention a bad dragoon will never outparse a good monk, and vice versa. It doesn't come down to the class in this game in terms of DPS so players won't be forced to play a certain class, if both the dragoon and monk in your party are going all out and maxing out their dps and the dragoon parses 10-20 above the monk, no one is going to get annoyed or care, if however the dragoon is parsing 350 and the monk is parsing 600 then you know full well it isn't a class issue, it's a player issue and that's the information a parser provides.

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Also, if someone doesn't want a BLM, SMN or whatever, because they can't get as high DPS as MNK, NIN and DRG, then why would you even want to be in their group to begin with? They really don't know anything about the game then...

For easy content, nobody would care, and for Coil and Alexander in the expansion, the people who are doing it, probably knows about all the differences and balancing of the jobs... and if they don't for some reason, don't join them, they suck anyways.

If you look at the whole FFXIV community, then maybe the ratio of players using parsers isn't very high, but if you look at the players doing raid content, it's pretty damn high... and the ones who doesn't have it, are mostly on consoles. It's not like people have no idea how much DPS different jobs can produce.

I worry that even if DPS/Total Damage values were shown to under-performing players, they would still put just as much effort in as they usually do. Sure there will be those who try harder when they found out their performance but what happens to those who don't use the information? Would you kick them for it? My question is what will the community do to those people?

Instead of providing evidence to shame people with in the form of parser numbers.

Have the class/job quests etc show you have to play your jump.

IMO the GLA, SCH, BLM do pretty well but I would definitely say the ACN MNK just to name a few don't really do it that well. MNKs dps usually lacks as they don't do the positions correctly, maintain GL stacks. They could easily introduce a series of quests where you need to deal x amount dmg in a time limit. And hitting the majority of the positional is the only way.

ACN - You have to deal x amount of dmg to 3 or more targets in a certain amount of time, which as you can imagine is only possible by maintain DOTs and baning as needed.
Pet control - you have no mp but must dps/heal via your pets.

I just think its pointless having a go at people about low numbers if they don't know how to properly play their class in the first place. I know the ACN class quest kinda attempt it but it isnt imperative to completing the quest.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

Information is useless in a vacuum. You would never know if your personal dps is good or not if it is not shared with others. DPS meters must be group visible for them to be effective at all.

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You could always ask, or something. Still better than nothing.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

The problem with Parsers is that certain jobs will absolutely do more dps than others

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I don't think anyone will be like "hey that BRD is being out-dpsed by the NIN, kick pls"
imo your post just sounds like more spurious reasoning trying to justify them not implementing a parser, by scaremongering with scenarios that wouldn't really happen anyway.

Most of us are aware that the roles are not "equal" and shine in different situations, eg melee single target, BLM aoe, BRD support, there is more to consider than just the dps number

PS if anyone should be kicked out of a party for such a reason, you are better off out of it

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Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

I worry that even if DPS/Total Damage values were shown to under-performing players, they would still put just as much effort in as they usually do. Sure there will be those who try harder when they found out their performance but what happens to those who don't use the information? Would you kick them for it? My question is what will the community do to those people?

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It won't work on all players, but there are a ton of people that play on consoles and can't see their DPS... And when they ask about it, and see that they don't do as much DPS as they want, they many times try to improve. That's the biggest point about having an in-game parser.

Also, if someone isn't doing enough DPS for raid content, and they don't care about it, then yes... You could kick them.

Only reason you don't see people pointing out DPS of others, is because they could get banned for doing it, but trust me... if someone is doing way too low DPS, they will get kicked, or people will simply leave the group (usually the latter one).

The positives of adding an in-game parser heavily outweighs the negatives IMO.

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Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

I worry that even if DPS/Total Damage values were shown to under-performing players, they would still put just as much effort in as they usually do. Sure there will be those who try harder when they found out their performance but what happens to those who don't use the information? Would you kick them for it? My question is what will the community do to those people?

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This might sound cold, but if a player knows that they have issues that are affecting their parties and flat-out refuses to do anything about them, am I supposed to care what the community will do to them?

I don't harass such players; I simply avoid them once I identify them. If someone is performing so poorly that they are holding back 7 other people, and if they are both aware that they have a problem and unwilling to "try harder," they need to go.