"Everyone whos been complaining about summoners read this"

SMN's filler is Ruin1/Ruin2, BLM's filler is T1/T2/B1, DRG's filler is FT combo, MNK's filler is BS -> True -> Snap, etc. etc.

Every class has filler. SMN is a DoT class, your focus is on maintaining those DoTs and then using Ruins when you have nothing else to do.

BLM's filler is their entire rotation aside from thunder procs, if you consider "using one spell over and over" to be filler.

BLM's "filler" therefore far more than SMN do, considering that you get maybe 2 ruins off before you should be doing something else.

Also actually having to manage mana, summon placement, etc and its a lot of work for not much profit.

Seeing this from a design standpoint Summoners needed some significant adjustments for Heavensward even when completely ignoring balance issues. It's been confirmed several times that we'd be getting Leviathan-egi and Ramuh-egi in 3.0 and there's even some hints at Shiva as well. Given the way our current egis are designed the new pets would either totally eclipse them or be dead on arrival. If there's one major change SE will make to SMNs it will be completely redesigning the pets to ensure the new ones have a unique role in our skillset.

Beyond that and the obvious tri-disaster change there's no way of knowing what they intend.

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Originally Posted by Sakurakiss123

thats what am saying . they did it before they gonna do it again. this gonna be huge I seen video's of dragoon limit break. i promise you this summoners gonna have one of highest damaging limit breaks cause it would be a grand summoning or that would allow us to control a primal sized like pet. on battle

say hello to the real ifirit all your comrades is dead the ones you defended betrayed you. you have creater of lesser primals inside you. yup with midgardsomrs assistance you can very well summon a primal

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The new limit breaks all have the same damage as the current ones so no one will have the 'highest'. All melees will do the same damage as Final Heaven, just with a unique job-specific animation. All casters will do the exact same as Meteor, just with a job-specific animation. This has been stated explicitly several times by Yoshi ever since he first announced the plans for limit breaks last year.

The only exception is BRD which will get a unique animation but will also be switching to the new ranged limit break introduced with machinist.

I wish I could read Japanese, they have a thread over there that's like 90 pages long that complains about SMN.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I wish I could read Japanese, they have a thread over there that's like 90 pages long that complains about SMN.

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That's probably the reason Summoner is getting heavily reworked because the Japanese players had 90 pages of suggestions to fix Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

That's probably the reason Summoner is getting heavily reworked because the Japanese players had 90 pages of suggestions to fix Summoner.

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I mean yeah probably, but I'm not complaining. I guess I'm curious to read some of the ideas of Japanese players you know? I did lolgoogletranslate and some of their posts make sense. They complain about a lot of the same things we do. I've seen things from the look of egi's to gameplay mechanics, but google translate is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I wish I could read Japanese, they have a thread over there that's like 90 pages long that complains about SMN.

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Well they are also different when it comes to the forums. They usually keep one thread going on the same subject opposed to dozens of threads that we have on the same subject.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well they are also different when it comes to the forums. They usually keep one thread going on the same subject opposed to dozens of threads that we have on the same subject.

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Even still. If you look at their DPS forums, there isn't a single other thread that has as many replies. It's clearly not just NA players that have a problem with it. I did see a picture attached to one post where they posted the MMO Aeon version of a SMN. Their pet started out small, but as the character leveled up, their pets got bigger and more detailed. They clearly have a lot of the same complaints as we do. SE has to listen to their playerbase. Even if the team who created summoner loves the way it plays, it's better to listen to your fans if enough people are upset about it.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Seeing this from a design standpoint Summoners needed some significant adjustments for Heavensward even when completely ignoring balance issues. It's been confirmed several times that we'd be getting Leviathan-egi and Ramuh-egi in 3.0 and there's even some hints at Shiva as well. Given the way our current egis are designed the new pets would either totally eclipse them or be dead on arrival. If there's one major change SE will make to SMNs it will be completely redesigning the pets to ensure the new ones have a unique role in our skillset.

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This. People are alway saying "No, don't change my class. It's fine," but if they don't address this potentially glaring issue, it won't be fine in the long run.

Players asked for many different things, we'll see which one are going to get real :P

I think when they said it'll get "heavily reworked" they meant simple CD adjustments and pet roles. I honestly doubt it's that serious. The current basic idea of a summoner will stay the same. Also, I doubt there will be any aoe burst damage being added to compete with a blm, but I do see better single target burst damage being superior to a blm.

edit: not to mention a possible party support role since new pets!!

The fact is that few changes can do a lot of difference for an hybrid job.
Examples:
If they make the pets stronger and more equilibrate, change the effect of Fester into Contagion-like and add a pet order skill like enkindle it will turn in more pet-centered job.

If they make one of new pet a strong debuffer there may be the case that it will turn out in a DPS/debuffer.

If they remove the Bane limit, makes a pet AoE based and change the effect Tri-Disaster into an AoE it could make it an AoE prone job.

3 little changes can make the whole job different

Casters are on pace for a drastic change going to 60. Spells cost more as you level up, and piety goes up at a much slower rate. If the rates continue for 51-60, you'll be looking at running dry on MP in 2/3 to 3/4 of the time it takes now using the same rotation. BLM will have to add a chunk of piety just to do a 4 fire rotation, forget about the current 5 fire rotation.

So, expect those new skills and traits to change all jobs quite a bit.

I just want them to fix Ifrits AoE attack so it actually hits stuff, without us having to place him in the middle of a mob.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Casters are on pace for a drastic change going to 60. Spells cost more as you level up, and piety goes up at a much slower rate. If the rates continue for 51-60, you'll be looking at running dry on MP in 2/3 to 3/4 of the time it takes now using the same rotation. BLM will have to add a chunk of piety just to do a 4 fire rotation, forget about the current 5 fire rotation.

So, expect those new skills and traits to change all jobs quite a bit.

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iirc mp costs scale with your base mp in a way so that you don't fit in any more or any less # of casts per level.
BLM can fit in 5 fires from lv2 all the way to lv50.

Just one thing SE needs to do to fix this big mess is "Bring back the elemental wheel" this would solve so much problem.

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Originally Posted by Dextro

iirc mp costs scale with your base mp in a way so that you don't fit in any more or any less # of casts per level.
BLM can fit in 5 fires from lv2 all the way to lv50.

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Level 40 BLM 171 MP for Fire
Level 50 BLM 319 MP for Fire
Double costs for using under AF, multiply by 5 and you get 1480 more MP required just for the 5 fires at level 50 vs 40.
Level 50 has 70 more Piety than level 40, that comes out to less than 600 more MP.
That's without considering the extra costs on Fire III, Blizzard III, and Thunder (II) in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Casters are on pace for a drastic change going to 60. Spells cost more as you level up, and piety goes up at a much slower rate. If the rates continue for 51-60, you'll be looking at running dry on MP in 2/3 to 3/4 of the time it takes now using the same rotation. BLM will have to add a chunk of piety just to do a 4 fire rotation, forget about the current 5 fire rotation.

So, expect those new skills and traits to change all jobs quite a bit.

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If your argument is that every 10 levels you can only cast 0.75 times the spells you could before, then if you can cast 5 fires at level 50, at level 10 you could cast 5 * ((1/0.75)^4) = 15.65 fires. Which isn't true.

I'll use numbers from lv40 & lv50 then, as a Dunesfolk Lalafell:

Lv40: 2003 mp
Fire III cost: 285 (14.22% of base value)
Fire I cost: 171 - (8.5% of base value)

Lv50: 3678 mp
Fire III cost: 532 - (14.46% of base value)
Fire I cost: 319 - (8.6% of base value)
*mp costs are *2 for Astral Fire III
**results will vary slightly depending on race

A simple dummy rotation of Fire III > Fire (x4) leaves you at 16-17% of your starting mp at both Lv.40 and Lv.50.

So yeah, the mp cost of everything is relative to the base value of each level.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Which is amusing considering you were moaning about coming after anyone if the changes sullied your playstyle of preference even if others argued for it. You know, how some people don't perceive the black mage as a bland spammy class like you do.

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I found this funny too, threatens people because the class may change and then says that. I don't know what to even say to that, all I can do is face palm and laugh. He maybe all worked up for nothing, they maybe changing SMN to elemental based DoTs rather than necromancer type disease etc. Obviously they felt there was a change needed and the SMN felt sloppy and thrown together. It's a good class but nothing flows.

Arcanist to Scholar flows nicely while Arcanist to Summoner is clumsily put together. Summoner got stuck with non-elemental damage so their spell line should be ruin, gravity force and shadow flare.

An interesting approach too might be if Tri-Disaster applied all 3 damage type debuffs (Slash, Pierce, Blunt)

Being able to instantly have that up on adds would negate the need for SMN to have burst damage because it would make it worth while for melee to swap targets without a DPS loss and just be amazing party support.

I personally hope tri-disaster becomes a form of aoe version of fester, apply dots-bane- tri-distaster for multi mobs, fester for single target.

tri-disaster looked like it became unaspected aoe bursts spell in the benchmark sort of like a modified version of ultima