[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

and how the current sistem is qualified as "not having weakness"? As conjurer, you can't turn in a thaumaturge, even if you equip all his spells
And a mage character don't really have any melee capacity, even if you equip all marauder skills :||

I think SE should branch Specialized classes from the current classes.. Gladiator to Paladin, or Warrior, or whatever, and make only certain abilities within its skillset to be equippable, and this would also limit the abilities equippable by other classes.

For example:

A Marauder could be specialized for being a Dark Knight, and this would make Bio, Poison, and low-tier Nukes equippable, but NOT Cure and Enhancement spells.

^
That's an example. I'm aware Marauder isn't DRK :P

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

All hail super cheat characters. Where there's no weaknesses and losing once means being able to immediately adapt on the fly.

We are the Borg, resistance is futile.

In the end it's opposing theories. You can't have a magical change character and still retain the dignity of fighting "fair"

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To this one.....Hahaha! I love it!

Now. To LillithaFenimore. That's great that you loved Elder Scrolls. This is not a one-player RPG, however. This is a MMORPG. What works for the RPG's based off a single person's experience should not be tried in an MMO. If everyone was gained access to all abilities then down the line you wouldn't be as unique as the other person because he'd have the same setup as you. If you had played XI then you would know what I'm talking about.

Like most MMO games, people work together to accomplish a goal. As stated above, if you'd played XI you would know what I'm going to say next. I don't care how freely you think this game is, it'll come down to you having to pick certain abilities rather than the one's you want if you want anything in the end. Let's use the endgame scene of FFXI's Sky. Simple, easy, yet still you had to use certain sub jobs on the job you used. You never seen a war/whm, why? Because people of the norm rejected your reality of fun. It was a pointless setup to help others.

Point is that people really don't care what you want to use. In the end it'll come down to what you NEED to use rather than what you WANT to use. This current system doesn't help people who want to use a certain class to be unique from the other classes. You'll probably see Gladiator, in the end, as the number one DoW class with the same exact abilities as your own. At least in FFXI when I chose Samurai, I was completely different from the other jobs.......Even though there were a couple other people with Samurai in the game, they weren't exactly like me. Our gear was different, our merits were alligned to other traits, and we used different systems of strategy.

This is not "Freedom" like many of you think. True freedom of choosing a class was from FFXI's approach. I don't want to be a Red Mage, so why do I have to level it to obtain those abilities for you and your endgame? Kiss my rosey red cheeks, I want to do what I want to do. Not do it as you.

With the current system there is more of a grey area for good and bad builds. There is more freedom in what you do with your class. There will always be cookie-cutter builds but you can deviate from them and not completely suck with the current system.

Personally when I play Pugilist it is completely different from how I play Marauder, and that's different from how I play Gladiator. Then again I try to use most of a class's native skills as possible as those are meant for that class. Marauder has a lot of conal AoE attacks, Pugilist is more of a one-on-one fighter and Gladiator is decidedly a tank class not to mention the Sentinel abilities that make it unique in its own right.

There is freedom but I think the problem is that people currently have too much freedom. It is overwhelming and most aren't really sure what they should be doing. I can understand that but I'm still against a job/subjob system as I feel that's too restrictive. Make some more abilities class specific or add a slightly larger penalty for cross-class abilities.

It's kind of sad, really. We finally have an MMO that gives us some actual freedom in designing our character and people are so flabbergasted by the idea that they start yelling for restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

To this one.....Hahaha! I love it!

Now. To LillithaFenimore. That's great that you loved Elder Scrolls. This is not a one-player RPG, however. This is a MMORPG. What works for the RPG's based off a single person's experience should not be tried in an MMO. If everyone was gained access to all abilities then down the line you wouldn't be as unique as the other person because he'd have the same setup as you. If you had played XI then you would know what I'm talking about.

Like most MMO games, people work together to accomplish a goal. As stated above, if you'd played XI you would know what I'm going to say next. I don't care how freely you think this game is, it'll come down to you having to pick certain abilities rather than the one's you want if you want anything in the end. Let's use the endgame scene of FFXI's Sky. Simple, easy, yet still you had to use certain sub jobs on the job you used. You never seen a war/whm, why? Because people of the norm rejected your reality of fun. It was a pointless setup to help others.

Point is that people really don't care what you want to use. In the end it'll come down to what you NEED to use rather than what you WANT to use. This current system doesn't help people who want to use a certain class to be unique from the other classes. You'll probably see Gladiator, in the end, as the number one DoW class with the same exact abilities as your own. At least in FFXI when I chose Samurai, I was completely different from the other jobs.......Even though there were a couple other people with Samurai in the game, they weren't exactly like me. Our gear was different, our merits were alligned to other traits, and we used different systems of strategy.

This is not "Freedom" like many of you think. True freedom of choosing a class was from FFXI's approach. I don't want to be a Red Mage, so why do I have to level it to obtain those abilities for you and your endgame? Kiss my rosey red cheeks, I want to do what I want to do. Not do it as you.

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Well the thing is I don't seem to be alone in the way I feel about the currect system of picking and chosing abilities. There seem to be many who feel the same as I do or some sort of varient of my feelings toward the armory system. Many people do play this game for FUN, whatever that definition is to that person. It seems like this game is offering that for many people, including myself.

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Fact: A Marauder shouldn't have MP to use for Cure, Protect, Shell, etc.

Fact: A Pugilist shouldn't be able to use weaponskill's from another class whose weaponskills base off being slashing or piercing when their weapons are blunt based.

Fact: The current system needs drastic changes to improve upon so a much more pleased crowd can be obtained. (I believe ~80% approved in the questionaire?)

False: This game is better than FFXI in terms of being unique to a certain degree.

You can not be unique if you have a hall pass to every ability with minimal consequences.

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You realize that none of those points are facts, your false is not false, and not everyone has or will have access to all abilities.

Despite there being thousands of people with Maat's Cap out there, that is still a niche accomplishment. How long did it take those people to accomplish that? How long will it take people to accomplish getting all the jobs to the new level cap? What happens when another job is introduced? The only "fact" is that not everyone will have a "hall pass" to every ability out there.

You create a false comparison between XI and XIV when you're critical of XIV's community of expecting certain abilities to be equipped. You fail to see that XI's community did the same thing.

-Melee's with /NIN
-RDM being forced to heal and refresh
-LVL75XXX/LVL35XXX(or lower) shunned regardless of minute differences or viability.
-Sneak and Invis or else

XIV may develop it's social norms, in due time, but it's a moot point to say that XI is somehow superior for it's social norms because it puts more restrictions on you.

Also, please do not assert things as fact when they are not. It serves no purpose for anyone, and only hinders your proposal.

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Originally Posted by Abraxai

I think SE should branch Specialized classes from the current classes.. Gladiator to Paladin, or Warrior, or whatever, and make only certain abilities within its skillset to be equippable, and this would also limit the abilities equippable by other classes.

For example:

A Marauder could be specialized for being a Dark Knight, and this would make Bio, Poison, and low-tier Nukes equippable, but NOT Cure and Enhancement spells.

^
That's an example. I'm aware Marauder isn't DRK :P

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That what they going to do in the up coming patchs

it be two system

Rise your monk to 50 and unlock Monk by doing a quest

or

Rise your monk to a point and pick a tree pug can become "monk,???,???" but they say it be diff from wow.

i think i go with the first one it can add more quest and more storyline to the game.

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[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

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This isn't Final Fantasy XI, that's what's wrong. To be fair I'm sure you meant to post in the FFXI forums. These are the FFXIV forums.

On a more serious note, Final Fantasy has never had the exact same systems in any of their games, and FFXIV is no different. THIS is an actual fact. Subjobs have been done already, time to move on.

I'm loathe to fall back on such a dumb argument, but if you want subjobs, keep playing FFXI. That's kind of one of the other reasons they made the game different, so that people wouldn't be playing the same game twice.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Fact: A Pugilist shouldn't be able to use weaponskill's from another class whose weaponskills base off being slashing or piercing when their weapons are blunt based.

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Technically Pugilists do have access to slashing and piercing weapons. Cesti do piercing damage back of the spikes that line the weapon and Baghnakhs do slashing damage because they're claws. Because of that, that is then not a fact.

Please stop trying to make this FFXI-2!

I love the way this game is. It needs improvements, it is not without it's flaws, but we do not need to go BACKWARDS to improve the game. 10 year old mechanics do not work. You don't make the game more fun by limiting, forcing or taking away freedom.

All FFXIV needs is more flashy effects and emote type animations (big variety of them) for skills to make them look cooler and be recognizable.

FFXIV Also needs challenging content and group gameplay, like missions and instances/dungeons, quests, monsters and whatever else you can beat with a group and feel good about.

The future of MMO is stepping away from the 'Holy-trinity' not going back to it.

Just saying from your title 'back' is wrong... Forward is the answer.

To whoever said that many people agree with you that this system is totally great? Haha! Yeah. I have a side, too. It's called the greater number that left this P.O.S game to make SE allow YOU to play for FREE while they fixed the situation! Hahahaha!

You people think everyone who disagree's with you is out for FFXI-2, and that makes you insane. There is no reason you can give me that makes this current class system to not be improved and restricted. You people think of this MMO's freedom like it's a demigod compared to the regular mortal's of MMO. Grow up. I've played this stupid game on and off since it's release and spending $80 seems like a total waste. It's boring, bland, and tasteless.

Give me a challenge. A will to level up. So far 80% of my actions are pressing the number one on my action bar. Big whoop! That's some freedom right there, man! They let us attack on our own! YEE-HAW! That's some good S**T! Hey! Let's do a BR! Wait.......Number five......Wait.........Yay! That was great!!!

Don't know about you, but man that above paragraph was soooo great....I mean, that's some true freedom right there.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

It's kind of sad, really. We finally have an MMO that gives us some actual freedom in designing our character and people are so flabbergasted by the idea that they start yelling for restrictions.

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Practicality > originality
reality > theory
Hindsight is supreme

Don't try to reinvent the wheel if you got no idea how to supersede it. People don't get an E for effort, and neither do designs or MMOs.

All this freedom did was be free to be let down.

And yes Conj can be thurm's and actually due to a certain skill, conj's is being taken over by thurm because you can be a conj with a slightly farther spell range.

There's no such thing as classes in FF14. It's a really thin line. Just like there's no such thing as a "build". That's a false representation.

If you fight a monster who's weak to fire, and uses paralyze on you. You instantly equip things to counter it. Whatever weakness you had, is gone, whatever strength you didn't have is given.

Resistance is futile.

Being flexible means exactly that, you have no restrictions. Whatever seemly restrictive SP limits only serve as an annoyance rather then a barrier.

Oh I lost, change skills. Freedom to woop ass

I prefer originality over practicality any day. Anyone who makes another Rift / wow clone can burn to ashes.

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And yes Conj can be thurm's and actually due to a certain skill, conj's is being taken over by thurm because you can be a conj with a slightly farther spell range.

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Yeah, you know what ? Now SE give a skill to modify your aoe in a cone. NOW you are a thm in conjurer shape

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Practicality > originality
reality > theory
Hindsight is supreme

Don't try to reinvent the wheel if you got no idea how to supersede it. People don't get an E for effort, and neither do designs or MMOs.

All this freedom did was be free to be let down.

And yes Conj can be thurm's and actually due to a certain skill, conj's is being taken over by thurm because you can be a conj with a slightly farther spell range.

There's no such thing as classes in FF14. It's a really thin line. Just like there's no such thing as a "build". That's a false representation.

If you fight a monster who's weak to fire, and uses paralyze on you. You instantly equip things to counter it. Whatever weakness you had, is gone, whatever strength you didn't have is given.

Resistance is futile.

Being flexible means exactly that, you have no restrictions. Whatever seemly restrictive SP limits only serve as an annoyance rather then a barrier.

Oh I lost, change skills. Freedom to woop ass

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Oh how I love you. You & I are one in the same. This current system is junk. Restrictions, please!

Yea, look at rift... It has nothing original. It's a boring, bland, tasteless game and it got a rating of 8.5!!

All this game needs is content and things to do.

Half the people who comment are probably not even playing it now because they are acting as if this game is just the same as when it was released.

Do you not realize how much better it is now? Wow... If it wasn't for the bland taste that was left behind from release people could see with a little content that this game is just as magical and awesome as the FF games should be.

People don't change what you don't know. Let them give content and if it doesn't work, they can always go back and LIMIT your game play and go to ancient holy trinity ways. (yay for seeking for group for hours, yay for being completely dependent, yay for being utterly useless by yourself and always needing other people's time to do what you want).

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Practicality > originality
reality > theory
Hindsight is supreme

Don't try to reinvent the wheel if you got no idea how to supersede it. People don't get an E for effort, and neither do designs or MMOs.

All this freedom did was be free to be let down.

And yes Conj can be thurm's and actually due to a certain skill, conj's is being taken over by thurm because you can be a conj with a slightly farther spell range.

There's no such thing as classes in FF14. It's a really thin line. Just like there's no such thing as a "build". That's a false representation.

If you fight a monster who's weak to fire, and uses paralyze on you. You instantly equip things to counter it. Whatever weakness you had, is gone, whatever strength you didn't have is given.

Resistance is futile.

Being flexible means exactly that, you have no restrictions. Whatever seemly restrictive SP limits only serve as an annoyance rather then a barrier.

Oh I lost, change skills. Freedom to woop ass

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While I disagree with a good deal of what you said, it holds very little bearing on the game as it's about to change in the direction of class uniqueness. I'm fine with some more restrictions, even if I think it's only because some players are too stupid to handle the freedom given to them. I simply don't want to see the job/subjob system again, I feel that's too restrictive.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

Yea, look at rift... It has nothing original. It's a boring, bland, tasteless game and it got a rating of 8.5!!

All this game needs is content and things to do.

Half the people who comment are probably not even playing it now because they are acting as if this game is just the same as when it was released.

Do you not realize how much better it is now? Wow... If it wasn't for the bland taste that was left behind from release people could see with a little content that this game is just as magical and awesome as the FF games should be.

People don't change what you don't know. Let them give content and if it doesn't work, they can always go back and LIMIT your game play and go to ancient holy trinity ways. (yay for seeking for group for hours, yay for being completely dependent, yay for being utterly useless by yourself and always needing other people's time to do what you want).

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Aside from the Rift thing(which I haven't played so I say nothing), I agree with the general spirit of this post.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

It's kind of sad, really. We finally have an MMO that gives us some actual freedom in designing our character and people are so flabbergasted by the idea that they start yelling for restrictions.

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My thoughts exactly.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Oh how I love you. You & I are one in the same. This current system is junk. Restrictions, please!

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See. ;3

If you want restrictions, have the discipline to apply them to yourself. There's no reason you can't do this. If you don't want to use the system, don't. Only use LNC abilities on your LNC if you prefer. But don't howl because others want to make a spear user that can also nuke or who use LNC ws on their GLA because the animation looks neat. You want handicaps and limitations, there is not a thing in the world stopping you from applying them to yourself in this game.

So I don't see where the argument is really. There will always be people insisting you must play a job this certain way. At least in XIV you can tell those types to shove it and still be able to get things done the way you want to. If you really want restrictions, find a group of people who think this way and hang out with them. They were really, really easy to find in FFXI...

Oh idly, I hear /dnc is the new /nin now in some circles over there, btw. I bet that stinks for the masses who leveled up ninja subjob just so they could get in parties. Now they're gonna have to level up another job just to be cool again. You really want that kinda bullshizzle to happen here? I think I'll pass.

I would love to have job/sub job system. I am disappointed with the execution of the current class system.

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I prefer originality over practicality any day. Anyone who makes another Rift / wow clone can burn to ashes.

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Yes. Absolutely agree. :)

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It's kind of sad, really. We finally have an MMO that gives us some actual freedom in designing our character and people are so flabbergasted by the idea that they start yelling for restrictions.

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This.

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If you want restrictions, have the discipline to apply them to yourself. There's no reason you can't do this. If you don't want to use the system, don't. Only use LNC abilities on your LNC if you prefer. But don't howl because others want to make a spear user that can also nuke or who use LNC ws on their GLA because the animation looks neat. You want handicaps and limitations, there is not a thing in the world stopping you from applying them to yourself in this game.

So I don't see where the argument is really. There will always be people insisting you must play a job this certain way. At least in XIV you can tell those types to shove it and still be able to get things done the way you want to. If you really want restrictions, find a group of people who think this way and hang out with them. They were really, really easy to find in FFXI...

Oh idly, I hear /dnc is the new /nin now in some circles over there, btw. I bet that stinks for the masses who leveled up ninja subjob just so they could get in parties. Now they're gonna have to level up another job just to be cool again. You really want that kinda bullshizzle to happen here? I think I'll pass.

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And it could have not been said better. If you like restrictions - go ahead, no one is stopping you. But the rest of the people who are happy having a game where they do what they like and play how they want, are not interested in restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

Half the people who comment are probably not even playing it now because they are acting as if this game is just the same as when it was released.

Do you not realize how much better it is now? Wow... If it wasn't for the bland taste that was left behind from release people could see with a little content that this game is just as magical and awesome as the FF games should be.

People don't change what you don't know. Let them give content and if it doesn't work, they can always go back and LIMIT your game play and go to ancient holy trinity ways. (yay for seeking for group for hours, yay for being completely dependent, yay for being utterly useless by yourself and always needing other people's time to do what you want).

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Yes. It's sooooo much better now...................Wow.........Are you serious, Ceon?

I. SP/Exp gained upon defeating enemy.
II. Introduction of an aggro icon so people really know which monsters are aggresive.
III. Item Search Function

Before you go off and try to ravage the people who no longer play the game, look at the content yourself and then the thread this is regarding. You're too stupid if you think it has anything to do with what they've been talking about in this thread. Nothing has been changed in a way to make the classes seem more unique. Content isn't just guildleves, quests, missions, etc. It's also the physical content of a character in which you must accomplish first before you are to take on those missions.

The class system is junk. Just because you think it's pretty butterfllies in your stomach doesn't mean it's like that for all of us. It feels more like some bad fiber in my gut erking me into the cradle position. At least some class restriction is in order, but you're too high and mighty to agree.

According to this class system. The weapon defines the class. So why are the weaponskills allowed to be transfered? Doesn't it seem just rather odd that your class is restricted to one weapon yet you're able to use the whole range of every weapons' weaponskill? Well I don't know about you, but it seems like a bunch of bologna to me. This is one of many points of argument as to why this system sucks. Maybe, Ceon, you could try to list at least one to defend yours?

Edit: Oh, I forgot to comment on that last paragraph. This is a MMORPG not a single-player RPG. These games were developed for the sole intention of group participation. It was meant for you to find others with a common need to progress in the game. Yet you could still do a lot of stuff solo. All I did was have two characters running so I could solo my own experience and materials. If you don't like it, then go back to playing by yourself on the console.

Edit II: I'm so sorry for all these edits, but I just remembered this quote from Dreamer.

"It's kind of sad, really. We finally have an MMO that gives us some actual freedom in designing our character and people are so flabbergasted by the idea that they start yelling for restrictions."

That is completly not true. Any MMO based off a Talent Tree system allowed you freedom in designing your character's abilities and stats. Case in point would be Diablo II. This current system is abusing your right to freedom by letting you take everything to drastic measures to cope with any challenge you may face by yourself without sacrificing much. That's the reason why MMO's were/are popular because people love team-work to accomplish goals you couldn't do alone. Being able to solo things most people couldn't only established a sense of elitism. Nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

I. SP/Exp gained upon defeating enemy.
II. Introduction of an aggro icon so people really know which monsters are aggresive.
III. Item Search Function

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You forgot:

IV. Introduction of side-quests.
V. Targeting modes (which are still undergoing changes)
VI. Re-evaluation of the item and delivery target for all local leves to properly reflect their rank.

There's more but they're more minor fixes like stacks to 99 (honestly, this was a godsend), monster sizes, new journal, battle text change.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

According to this class system. The weapon defines the class. So why are the weaponskills allowed to be transfered? Doesn't it seem just rather odd that your class is restricted to one weapon yet you're able to use the whole range of every weapons' weaponskill? Well I don't know about you, but it seems like a bunch of bologna to me. This is one of many points of argument as to why this system sucks. Maybe, Ceon, you could try to list at least one to defend yours?

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Honestly most weapon skills don't name a weapon except for Archer skills and one or two Marauder skills. The rest that name weapons are class specific. That's not the important part though. The important part is that while you can cross-class a lot of weapon skills, any player with half a brain won't cross-class too many as they're just not that effective or worth cross-classing. The skills that one would want to cross-class are mostly buffs, healing skills and the occasional weapon skill though mostly for incapacitation. It all comes back to how well people can actually handle the freedom given to them.

As a Pugilist I could equip Red Lotus but I don't because it's just not that great for me. There's the cross-class penalty already in place, not to mention I just don't need it over my native Pugilist skills which have no penalties on them. I could equip elemental attack spells and start nuking like crazy but I don't because I'm just not built for magic damage. The skills I do cross-class however are things like Feint, Cure II, Bloodbath (not that useful though), Taunt/Provoke if I'm tanking and honestly that's about it. Most of those are for the sake of survivability in a pinch.

It all comes down to how well a player can utilize a given system and how well they can handle choices given to them. I could use all cross-class skills and no native skills but would it be viable? Nope, that's why no one does it.

The only people who want strict restrictions are those who cannot handle freedom.

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You forgot:

IV. Introduction of side-quests.
V. Targeting modes (which are still undergoing changes)
VI. Re-evaluation of the item and delivery target for all local leves to properly reflect their rank.

There's more but they're more minor fixes like stacks to 99 (honestly, this was a godsend), monster sizes, new journal, battle text change.

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Thank you for including some other things implemented into the game. However these still do not help in terms of this thread's want for more unique class setups and restrictions.

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The important part is that while you can cross-class a lot of weapon skills, any player with half a brain won't cross-class too many as they're just not that effective or worth cross-classing. As a Pugilist I could equip Red Lotus but I don't because it's just not that great for me.

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The only people who want strict restrictions are those who cannot handle freedom.

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Sorry if I cut and paste the bare essentials, but this is just more helpful to me. Why are you against restrictions if you don't even use the weaponskills on other jobs in the first place? You're basically making no sense at all. "Well I don't use them, but I don't want them restricted. You're taking away my freedom to choose!" The reason I want the restrictions is to keep the classes own weaponskills based off THEIR weapon in their own confines is because it's their ONLY weapon allowed. This is similar to the reason why I don't want DoW to use magic. They have no need for it, besides Gladiator in terms of sustaining emnity based off healing itself(or others) to an extent.

You whine about freedom yet you disregard using that freedom to use certain undesired skills? Thanks for just helping me by saying that you want the best of skills from other jobs to incorporate into your ultimate class. Quit whining about making classes more strict in terms of defining it's own class.

Maybe next time you should read more of the post besides just quoting it up as quick as possible. I said it needs "Some" restrictions, not all of it. I don't care being able to use bloodbath or whatever that stupid ability is that lets you siphon HP from a single attack. It's the more potent of the classes abilities during the higher levels I wanted restricted to class only. That also brings up the point of class traits unlocked by Guild Marks. Shouldn't be able to use on other classes. But before you say, "Well you don't have to and it's useless to anyway." let me go ahead and say this, "If it's useless as other classes, why not restrict it to class specific?"

You talk about having the freedom to choose but only choose those abilities that best help a class.....That sounds so much like a sub job system except you want all abilities to be accessable. Bull****. There was consequences in a sub job system that only allowed you to pick from one other job to obtain abilities from. If you chose /whm you were able to heal yourself yet severely let your guard down and dealt less DoT. Not to mention you had considerably less MP if you were a DD class. If you chose /war you were able to deal more DoT through double attack and berserk, yet not be able to heal yourself unless you had your own abilities that let you do so. With this system you're allowed to take the best from every class which in a sense is too overpowering and an abuse to freedom.

Again before you tell me to restrict myself and leave you alone, I say [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] Using some basic core features used in SE's first MMO wouldn't make it a FFXI-2. When you seen turned based actions being used in FF7 it wasn't FF7-2 when FF8 used the same principle core feature. FFX and FFX-2 were of the same original storyline which prompted it a sequel. If you took FFXI and reskinned it with different classes, storyline, abilities, some new battle mechanics, and I guess graphics, it would be considered a new game. Case in point? From FF12 to FF13!!!!!

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

Woah there calm down buddy, no need to attack me so viciously. Are you mad because I actually put up a decent argument?

I'm not whining about anything, that's you putting words in my mouth. I'm not going to shut the hell up and I'm certainly not crying over anything lol. I'm just trying to debate my point without needless attacks against any other posters.

Just because I don't use them currently doesn't mean I think other shouldn't be able to. Honestly I could be just not be seeing something that could make a great build using some cross-class weapon skills. Others may find more use for them than I currently do.

Actually I think Guild Marks traits should be usable by other classes. If they were restricted to one class then Marauder would be the "best" tank because it has Intimidate and people would probably start to shun other classes like Gladiator or Pugilist as tanks. Also people would likely consider Archer as the only viable DD class because it has Out of Sight and thus helps let the tank hold aggro a bit better. Cookie-cutter standards just like in XI.

You brought up the one reason I'm against job/subjob. You can only pull from ONE class. Yes I'm trying to pull abilities from other classes to make my current class the best it can be. If you could pull a few skills from other classes that helped you accomplish your role better, wouldn't you?

I never said I want total freedom either, I think we could stand a few more restrictions but I still say a job/subjob system is far too restrictive. I'm fine with more weapon skills being class specific, I'm fine with a slightly larger penalty on cross-classing. I simply don't want to see them cave in to FFXI purists and put Job/Subjob back in. This is not FFXI or FFXI-2 and I certainly hope it never resembles either.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Woah there calm down buddy, no need to attack me so viciously. Are you mad because I actually put up a decent argument?

I'm not whining about anything, that's you putting words in my mouth. I'm not going to shut the hell up and I'm certainly not crying over anything lol. I'm just trying to debate my point without needless attacks against any other posters.

Just because I don't use them currently doesn't mean I think other shouldn't be able to. Honestly I could be just not be seeing something that could make a great build using some cross-class weapon skills. Others may find more use for them than I currently do.

Actually I think Guild Marks traits should be usable by other classes. If they were restricted to one class then Marauder would be the "best" tank because it has Intimidate and people would probably start to shun other classes like Gladiator or Pugilist as tanks. Also people would likely consider Archer as the only viable DD class because it has Out of Sight and thus helps let the tank hold aggro a bit better. Cookie-cutter standards just like in XI.

You brought up the one reason I'm against job/subjob. You can only pull from ONE class. Yes I'm trying to pull abilities from other classes to make my current class the best it can be. If you could pull a few skills from other classes that helped you accomplish your role better, wouldn't you?

I never said I want total freedom either, I think we could stand a few more restrictions but I still say a job/subjob system is far too restrictive. I'm fine with more weapon skills being class specific, I'm fine with a slightly larger penalty on cross-classing. I simply don't want to see them cave in to FFXI purists and put Job/Subjob back in. This is not FFXI or FFXI-2 and I certainly hope it never resembles either.

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Most often people who favor originality are gonna get attacked in these forums.. often viciously. Job/subjob is very restrictive, and it will only serve to make one gladiator the same as the next, so on and so forth. The current system allows character skill customization to their liking, and it needs to stay that way.

The door to FFXI is still open.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Most often people who favor originality are gonna get attacked in these forums.. often viciously. Job/subjob is very restrictive, and it will only serve to make one gladiator the same as the next, so on and so forth. The current system allows character skill customization to their liking, and it needs to stay that way.

The door to FFXI is still open.

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Agree! People need to keep looking back and accept the new! Maybe if there weren't so much crying about how good FFXI is and how bad FFXIV is the devs could be going foward instead of double checking every system.

Isntead of asking for this game to become FFXI-2, why not going to FFXI forum and ask better graphics? Would be a much easier deal updating the models there than changing all FFXIV system to make a FFXI-2.

People need to accept the new. This game is very fun when you try and stop comparing it to FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Agree! People need to keep looking back and accept the new! Maybe if there weren't so much crying about how good FFXI is and how bad FFXIV is the devs could be going foward instead of double checking every system.

Isntead of asking for this game to become FFXI-2, why not going to FFXI forum and ask better graphics? Would be a much easier deal updating the models there than changing all FFXIV system to make a FFXI-2.

People need to accept the new. This game is very fun when you try and stop comparing it to FFXI.

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So much truth! All they needed to do was upgrade FFXI's graphics and they wouldn't need a FFXIV... or WOULD they. perhaps it is because this is a different game, and it needs to stay different :)

The door to FFXI is still open (imma keep repeating this for those folk)

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Originally Posted by Reika

The door to FFXI is still open

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I'll help you spread the message ;)

How about fun. Time is ticking.

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Originally Posted by Esoteric

Sure it's not unique in the MMO world, but it still provided cross-job skills with balance.
Anyone else want the FFXI system back?

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I want it. *_* Please *_*

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Originally Posted by Haziel

I want it. *_* Please *_*

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...1-LOYALTY-MODE

This thread is for you. And everyone else that thinks FFXI was OOOH SOOO awesome.

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Originally Posted by Reika

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...1-LOYALTY-MODE

This thread is for you. And everyone else that thinks FFXI was OOOH SOOO awesome.

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"Wahhh people want some features from the game that was actually successful"

"I want to be a special snowflake even though I'm going to equip second wind, siphon MP, cure, etc on every single job I play"

Shut up. An extremely over-exaggerated list of some of the flaws from XI? You wouldn't even have to lie to make an XIV version that topples it. Why do you guys defend some half-assed poorly thought out aspects of a bad game anyway?

To all the people saying "if you want restrictions, put them on yourself." Did the idea that the game can not/will not be balanced for that enter into the empty space where your brain should be? The game will be balanced for the most optimized character setups(the end result of the armory system).

So heres something to think about. People can have restrictions and still not have limits, and people can have limits without restrictions. These are different things. Restrictions protect you form yourself and others, and imitate reality. Limitation hinder your abilities to exist and enjoy things. Pick one and talk about it, but they are not one in the same.

At least be creative and come up with some good ideas instead of 10 year old recycled stuff.

Yes it was great. No, do not want it anymore.

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Originally Posted by AtryxEtair

To all the people saying "if you want restrictions, put them on yourself." Did the idea that the game can not/will not be balanced for that enter into the empty space where your brain should be? The game will be balanced for the most optimized character setups(the end result of the armory system).

So heres something to think about. People can have restrictions and still not have limits, and people can have limits without restrictions. These are different things. Restrictions protect you form yourself and others, and imitate reality. Limitation hinder your abilities to exist and enjoy things. Pick one and talk about it, but they are not one in the same.

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FFXI tried to do this with the subjob system, didn't work.

Like I always say, the door to FFXI is still open. No one is stopping you from playing it again if you love it so much....

To Lienn and Reika.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Isntead of asking for this game to become FFXI-2, why not going to FFXI forum and ask better graphics? Would be a much easier deal updating the models there than changing all FFXIV system to make a FFXI-2.

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Oh. How funny. Here, let me throw another statement of mine I said up above that you've might've overlooked.

"If you took FFXI and reskinned it with different classes, storyline, abilities, some new battle mechanics, and I guess graphics, it would be considered a new game. Case in point? From FF12 to FF13!!"

Eh? What's that you say? Yeah. I thought so. You two are just the two typical people that don't read anything disregarding your opinions. Only to what you want to hear. Man, that sounds just like the selfish people I always knew you were to be. Haha! Now back to Arcell.

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Actually I think Guild Marks traits should be usable by other classes. If they were restricted to one class then Marauder would be the "best" tank because it has Intimidate and people would probably start to shun other classes like Gladiator or Pugilist as tanks. Also people would likely consider Archer as the only viable DD class because it has Out of Sight and thus helps let the tank hold aggro a bit better. Cookie-cutter standards just like in XI.

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This is one of the lamest excuses I've ever heard. There is a fine line that seperates class abilities from class traits. A classes traits should never be crossed over to another class. You keep talking about cookie-cutter, but you'd be a fool to say it's not anything like it. Aren't you basically cutting out certain things you want from classes to obtain your own? Cookie-cutter? Sounds like it. It goes both ways.

Your argument is nothing more than another excuse. They already had this problem in the previous game. What did they do to solve it? They adjusted the abilities when crossed over through sub job, and also traits and abilities from the job it came from. What's that? You want an example? Ok!

I. RNG/THF used to deal ungodly amounts of damage via Sneak Attack -> Weaponskill. (Patched. Ranger weaponskills could no longer stack onto sneak attack. Also is seriously penalized if used as a sub job.)

II. When the update for 1 STR = 1 ATK for Two-Handed weapon wielders. They changed it to .75 to avoid massive damage gap between one-handed to two-handed. (Patched.)

III. Hasso used from Samurai only had half the effect when used as a sub-job by any other two-handed weapons. (Implemented when Hasso & Seigan first came out for Samurai.)

IV. I'll let you come up with more if you feel inclined.

With that being said, there is nothing in your argument worth approval. What would need to be done is a revision of certain abilities that would make one class far superior in terms of tank, DD, healer, etc. SE has clearly shown it is far more capable of being able to remedy their mistakes than you would dare to say.

OH! I almost forgot! Your complaint over Marauder having Intimidation? Well I remember so well that Warrior of XI had an ability that Paladin did not..........Provoke! I'm going to let you marinate on that for a second. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

This is one of the lamest excuses I've ever heard. There is a fine line that seperates class abilities from class traits. A classes traits should never be crossed over to another class. You keep talking about cookie-cutter, but you'd be a fool to say it's not anything like it. Aren't you basically cutting out certain things you want from classes to obtain your own? Cookie-cutter? Sounds like it. It goes both ways.

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There you go making assumptions and putting words in my mouth again. I don't want to make my own "ultimate cookie-cutter class", in fact the way I play Pug is distinctly different from how other people even in my LS play it. Regardless, I don't want something like Intimidate to be Marauder specific, thus making it THAT much harder for Glad or Pug to tank. I think anyone who is tanking should have Intimidate and anyone who's not tanking should have Out of Sight. That's one of the things put into the game to help keep aggro shifted a certain way. If you made Intimidate specific to Marauder you'd have people saying that Glad and Pug aren't viable tanks because they can't keep hate as well. If you made Out of Sight specific to Archer you'd have people saying that Lancer, Pug and Marauder aren't viable DD classes because they've lost that key enmity mitigation trait.

I don't want to see job/subjob because it is too restrictive and creates too many cookie-cutter community standards where anything else is shunned. I didn't play XI to 75 in anything but I know other people can back me up there in that if you weren't cookie-cutter class X/Y you were shunned and couldn't get a group. Any originality was stripped from the game after a point. If you were something you HAD to sub a specific job or else you sucked, that's taking it too far.

Also you clearly have no understanding of the term "cookie-cutter" if you think that "cutting my own abilities out of other classes" defines it. It means that everyone is the same, you have standards that you cannot deviate from. So far in XIV there are few cookie-cutter standards. Want a tank? You've got Glad, Pug and Marauder. Want a DD class? You've got Lancer, Pug, Marauder and Archer. Even the mages can take over each other's roles with a degree of success though some are better than others.

And how about you stop attacking me? I have not once said a single insulting word towards you and it really doesn't help your argument. An argument based on attacking another and not the issue isn't really a sound argument now is it?