I'm confused about Yoshi-P's thoughts on dps-check programs.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Must be lucky. Haven't noticed any significant difference thanks to Proving Grounds since WoD dropped. Even in MoP Proving Grounds didn't really help the player-base.



Saw bits and peaces that I would like to respond to properly, but honestly the massive wall of text is difficult to read.

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I tried to fix it some. I was being lazy I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Paragraphs are important.

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Thanks E'lusana I was being lazy. I fixed it up some. Hope that helps.

I actually kind of like it, it's nice having this game not be like WoW where every dungeon or raid someone is being yelled at for doing low DPS and people just mind their own business since calling someone out on dps can get you reported for suspected to have a parser.

That's the only reason though, I think DPS information is needed to be known for raiding in any game. So it's really stupid overall, but it does help the community to have it be 'taboo', in a sense.

As a PS4 player, I would love something to check DPS. It actually feels quite unfair because PC players can use parsers, and they are totally overlooked and "allowed" to do so.

Why can't we just have a personal parser? It doesn't have to tell me what everyone else is doing, just what I'm doing.

Then it CAN just be used for self improvement and not harassment.

I never had interest in endgame in mmorpg before, but because of a FC I was in and helped them with coil a long time ago, I started to get interest in this.

I really wish for a personal parser so I can try out what works best for me.

Still if other people saw my bad dps I would feel very demotivated, because I am working with all that I can to get better at it.

I do notice in calm and nice groups my dps is much better then when people are more pushing. But then again I hate to work my best when all people do is complaining.

Also on a dummy it is easy, but in fights you often have to go to adds and other stuff.

So I would like to have parsers but I also fear them.

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Originally Posted by Adire

It couldn't possibly be that this community is THAT immature and has to be babysitted THAT much by SE :(

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Yes, some parts of the community are *that* immature and has to be babysat by SE. (Just look at how much harassment newbies face in certain fights and instances)This is why we can't have nice things.

That being said, I support SE's 'don't ask, don't tell' policy in regards to parsers.
I feel as if it would be far more damaging to the community have an "official" parser.

I'm surprised there's no dps-check window in this game

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Oh please, we just had someone complaining about not realizing the HW opening from the XX live letter contains spoilers despite the big black screen disclaimer posted before the video. Do you really think the average people will read any of that? Hell, I have doubts that the average ffxiv players reading the image there would be able to put 2 and 2 together and decide which skill goes with which skill.

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Not to mention that class quests and tool tips already let players know how to play their jobs. You have guild hests that start at level 10 that introduce the idea of party play to players and what needs to be done. The problem is when people skip over the quest text/tool tips/tutorial/etc like derps and expect to be omfgqtfbbqamazing at their class/job.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Without an enrage timer, people will just bring extra healers to heal through mechanics.

With an enrage timer you know... the DPS actually have some responsibility once?

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Or, as is the case with ADS in Coil 2, bring an extra healer and wait especially FOR the rage timer to tick down... you know, to AVOID said mechanics altogether.

This thread is an example why I dislike parsers.

Players suck who don't meet the requirements set by a party/raid (thanks to parsers most likely). They aren't players who need a bit of guideance, adjustment, improvement or plain help ... they just suck.
Don't get me wrong parsers can be great tools to improve a party/raid but in my opinion a huge part of the community is either not mature enough or have no patience at all - on both sides.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Or, as is the case with ADS in Coil 2, bring an extra healer and wait especially FOR the rage timer to tick down... you know, to AVOID said mechanics altogether.

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That's a special case, and SE took note of it and made sure it doesn't happen again.
All enrage mechanics after that made sure it killed you.

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Originally Posted by Tremara

This thread is an example why I dislike parsers.

Players suck who don't meet the requirements set by a party/raid (thanks to parsers most likely). They aren't players who need a bit of guideance, adjustment, improvement or plain help ... they just suck.

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Yes it's the parsers fault that people are wiping to dps checks and not the actual dps check.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Yes it's the parsers fault that people are wiping to dps checks and not the actual dps check.

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If you like to quote, quote at least all of my post.

You missed that part - by accident I'm sure. /sarcasm

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Don't get me wrong parsers can be great tools to improve a party/raid but in my opinion a huge part of the community is either not mature enough or have no patience at all - on both sides.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Basically, he don't want folks pointing fingers saying you suck and you suck. However, after learning T10 and having it on farm status, I'm ready to move to T11.

Looking at videos for it, T11 has an enrage timer. If Yoshi didn't want people to feel bad, then why are most of these fights set up with hidden timers? Even Shiva Ex has it.

I'm now understanding why most people get upset when dps overall is low, because we'll never win at that rate. It's almost like a player who wants to be a DPS need to only focus that one job.

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Because "DPS Parsers" are unauthorized third party software that is hooked into the game. If you use such things to determinate if a player is good or bad, it's ignoring all the other variables, including maybe the DPS parser itself is broken. An analogy would be how US companies poach each others employees instead of hiring and training new people. There is only a limited quantity of people who have the experience and skill you want, the rest you need to bring up to your standards, or lower your standards.

At any rate using DPS Parsers are basically an admission the player isn't playing the game for fun anymore.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Or, as is the case with ADS in Coil 2, bring an extra healer and wait especially FOR the rage timer to tick down... you know, to AVOID said mechanics altogether.

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Don't even need an extra healer...
1T, 1H, 6D can beat ADS even ignoring passing allagan rot, thereby not having to wait for enrage...

Enrage exist to force dps slots ( imagine 4 healers 2 tanks 2 dps) , and enrages force a Ilvl check ,so u need dps geared to do that amount of dps.

the only way SE is going to add Parser is if only showed COMBINED PARTY DPS , but thats problematic.

while SE knows why parsers are important, they wont open that can of worms....

Berating that low lvl blm , or the monk that just want to try to start raiding is a fast way to kill the raiding , why?

that low blm that u are kicking for low dps , could be your next SCH (that u have been looking for 2 weeks), because he is lvling blm for swiftcast and he sucks at dpsing but is an awesome healer, too bad that he quits or wont even attemp to raid because elitist jerks....

the monk could be your next top dps , too bad he is new and doesnt know every encounter like u do because gasp is a fist timer and while guides and videos help until u see how it goes....ah too bad he is told that suck and is the worst player on the planet and quits.

Renewed playerbase is what keeps mmorpgs afloat , ppl left , some ppl come , and as u know SE has been "loving" new players , forcing old players to do old content , the whole relic is a easy way to coerce lvl 50 to help newbies to do dungeons ,fates and trials :P

true be told there are ppl that are hopeless and parser or no parser wont help , but thats another matter.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Basically, he don't want folks pointing fingers saying you suck and you suck. However, after learning T10 and having it on farm status, I'm ready to move to T11.

Looking at videos for it, T11 has an enrage timer. If Yoshi didn't want people to feel bad, then why are most of these fights set up with hidden timers? Even Shiva Ex has it.

I'm now understanding why most people get upset when dps overall is low, because we'll never win at that rate. It's almost like a player who wants to be a DPS need to only focus that one job.

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Way too narrow of a view.

If Yoshi-P endorsed an official parser, you know damn well the extreme elitists are going to give newbies crap in tam-tara, satasha and even Crystal Tower raids.

Yoshi doesn't mind that players are using parsers for self-improvement in the highest tiers of raiding, but if he openly endorsed the activity there would be lots of unnecessary bullying.

The activity is not condoned and its accepted among the community for that highest tier of raiding. It doesn't belong anywhere else and lets keep it that way.

However the activity of humiliation can very well fall under harassment depending on how far the instigator takes it. Which is the reason behind no official parser.

parseer is a great tool, no one can denie this.... but it's not different than give a gun to a kids actually. most of the mmorpg community are not mature enough for use it correctly. maybe 5-10% is able to use it without turn it into a tool for shaming the other.

anyway, do we really need parseer? nope... people need to communicate more... a good Raid leader can see where the dps is failing. then instead to ask for add an official parseer, maybe try to find where is lacking. think by yourself and try to find what is good or bad.

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If Yoshi-P endorsed an official parser, you know damn well the extreme elitists are going to give newbies crap in tam-tara, satasha and even Crystal Tower raids.

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Because this totally doesn't already happen.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Because this totally doesn't already happen.

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Not that often tbh. I sit in coils all day every day and rarely see it happen. Yeah it happens but no need to just say "Oh it's going to happen anyways" and make the behavior spread like a cancer as a result. It's at tolerable levels right now, let's not give it a push in the wrong direction or it will definitely get bad.

Indeed, the way people go about treating each other gets way too awful in certain duties anyway, even without a parser. Imagine if you saw people's data, it would just help focus attacks on specific members. I do believe that most people know if they're doing enough damage or healing or hold enmity well enough or not. They probably are aware of how they could get better, and try to as well - but they do need practice, it won't get better in the blink of an eye. (And those who aren't aware would probably be hopeless, even with a parser - or maybe they just don't care enough at all, which of course is subject for an entire separate discussion.)

Personally, as I mostly go as DPS (sometimes even when I don't), if I see that the damage is not enough, as it happened with Odin too many times - I just say "we aren't doing enough damage". I include myself in that, even if I suspect I'm doing well enough...for all I know, I might not be. But I don't isolate myself from such statements, as it is a team effort. Even if it's clearly visible to everyone it's because of one specific person. I do believe it takes the edge away, at least somewhat, as opposed to something like "you're doing it wrong". I don't think the atmosphere's ever turned negative when I was the first to call it and did it like that; perhaps it really a minor thing, idk. But maybe worth considering.



(REMOVE THE BLOODY CHARACTER LIMIT ALREADY, FOR SANITY'S SAKE!)

A parser as we know them (listing every player and showing each one's DPS, HPS etc) make people jerks watch the DFs "xxx DPS or kick" (also that would be way above what is needed for any dps checks) or "Hey DRG Stop sucking your DPS was only xxx, why do you suck so much" I have seen it before whilst parsers are basically banned, imagine if it's like that when every PC player is using them.

Now saying that I aren't 100% against parsers, one that would work for self improvement without turning the entire community into jerks would be at the end of a fight to show the highest dps in the fight, and your own personal dps, this would show individuals that they are subpar and allow them to improve if needed, it could even show the lowest or even average dps through the fight. These would allow self improvement whilst preventing the jerks who just use them to put people down.

I believe that people can already tell who is doing good or mediocre dps without a parser either by watching how fast mobs die, how many times a dps dies, or even the aggro table (to a lesser degree). I started the game on a JPN server and am Asian myself, and can say that some of the issues here are more NA related. I'm not saying JPN are 'more polite', but I do know that most would never publically call out any other member of a party or alliance for poor dps -- that would just be disgraceful and a huge breach of politeness. Most likely the person blaming would be ignored or shunned for being so crass. Then again, many people practice in PF so they are good enough to not be a detriment to the random people they will meet in DF and bring the whole team down. It is a matter of people taking responsibility for their own performance prior to playing with random strangers and possibly hurting that group.

I'm all for personal dps meters -- as this would help people improve on their own // party or public parsers, I think, would hurt the community, especially here. Again, it is just a difference in cultures I'm referring to - I know plenty of JPN who bash 'mediocre' players in FC/LS chat and on boards -- but never (usually) directly in the game. I do wish the same could be said across all data centers ^^

Parser is a must in every MMORPGs end game contents. What Yoshi-P says is irrelevant, he obviously does it in order to please the large amount of plebs/suckers playing FFXIV so far.

I think XIV could easily attach a bare bones parser to the striking dummies. That way it can be treated as a measuring tool in-game for your personal performance, and you only need to compare it with others if you choose to share it. Sure, it's not a "real world" measure of how any given player will perform in a fight, but it would allow us to have an official performance measure for things like accuracy.

Hell, you could make it match in game lore by having it be a creation of the Ironworks. "Ironworks Training Dummy" and you can adjust the parameters and level of it. Put a timer and 20,000 "HP" on it, and see how long it takes you to pummel it down. And it spits out your accuracy, your damage per second, and your final time.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

Parser is a must in every MMORPGs end game contents. What Yoshi-P says is irrelevant, he obviously does it in order to please the large amount of plebs/suckers playing FFXIV so far.

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And you are the kind of person who should never be allowed a parser, I can guarantee from your comment that you would be the one calling people out in party and alliance chat for no reason but to put people down. If anything people who need a parser suck more because they seem to be incapable of working out whether they are doing a good job or not.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

If anything people who need a parser suck more because they seem to be incapable of working out whether they are doing a good job or not.

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You fell for the obvious bait, mate.

Being able to see your performance is a handy tool to have. Most end game progression groups use it because it is helpful and in turn can help them to improve even further - not because they are terrible at their job.

I never understood why people have a raging...passion for parsers in a game where it'd only be useful in the coil and not needed everywhere else.

The only thing that confuses me is why people think parsers would cause new elitism. Imo it would just change the language slightly. The stereotypical condescending elitist would go from "omg filthy scrub your dps is garbage gtfo" to "omg scrub your dps was under 150 gtfo." Effectively they're the same sentence, being said by the same person for the same things at the same time, so does it really matter which one of them is bannable and which one isn't? I really don't think the people who don't care about dps now would suddenly become raging elitists. The social atmosphere would be largely unchanged. It's also not as though allowing parsers means allowing harassment. If someone's being a jerk now, you can report them for it. I imagine that would stay the same. Same essential argument for the "PF will be flooded with 'xx minimum dps or kick.'" News flash: the groups that want to impose dps requirements already do. They just either don't tell you, or will only tell you over voice chat. So again, that's not actually a new problem, just a language adjustment.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

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Outside of Coils, I personally would not want to carry someone who can't pull higher than darklight-BiS overall damage in a primal farm party (specifically titan). Though at that point, you wouldn't even need a parser because they have to be playing their job completely off the radar to perform that badly to slow down the party; I'm talking turmult on phase 1, three table flips in phase 2, or a phase reset on last phase...with 5 dps.

I normally would not mind it when it came to learning content or DF, but I do have some standards and bars set when it comes to making my own farming party or in some cases, a clear party.

That being said though, SE honestly cant do much about the toxicity in the playerbase, and I feel that its a really really weak excuse, esp when they don't want to get involved with player-disputes when it comes to DF kicks.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I never understood why people have a raging...passion for parsers in a game where it'd only be useful in the coil and not needed everywhere else.

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It's more like a concern. There is a good chance that the new raids and dungeons in Heavensward would have some sort of soft/hard DPS check - kind of like Haukke Manor (Hard) and Halicarnassus, and Amdapor Keep and the Demon Wall during its prime. Those 2.0 and 2.1 dungeons were pretty brutal because of how tight the dps checks were.

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Originally Posted by Orspeth

I can't say about Secret World - I've only played it briefly - very neat looking game! In Wow though, meters encouraged horrible behavior. I played Lotro for 6 or 7 years though, no meters in that game, but things still died in a timely fashion. I would hate for this game to get parsers, for fear of what it might do. Such a thing should definitely only show ones own numbers - and no others.

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There were multiple parsing addons in lotro. How you played 6-7 years without knowing they existed is mind boggling. Considering things died in a timely manner, that would suggest noone griefed you for pulling lower #'s despite parsing so what was your point again about a tool used for information encouraging "bad behavior"?

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

It's more like a concern. There is a good chance that the new raids and dungeons in Heavensward would have some sort of soft/hard DPS check - kind of like Haukke Manor (Hard) and Halicarnassus, and Amdapor Keep and the Demon Wall during its prime. Those 2.0 and 2.1 dungeons were pretty brutal because of how tight the dps checks were.

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Honestly there's nothing really wrong with that. All things considered, this is the sort of thing that can get easier as it gets older (compared to say Second Coil if they didn't change the mechanics) because you start to overgear it (and thus, have more leeway to get to get the dps check). Especially if said dungeons was current content at the time. People should have an idea on how to play their jobs (and I mean the entire four-man party) by the time they get to level 50 and doing heroic/expert dungeons when it is new.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

And you are the kind of person who should never be allowed a parser, I can guarantee from your comment that you would be the one calling people out in party and alliance chat for no reason but to put people down.

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It is disarming and disheartening to see how people make judgments so quickly: and you obviously do not know me. I spend 80% of my playtime by helping people and you have no right to say that. Still, I go straight to the point when needed: end game needs DPS check and a solid tank/healing job. Parser for DPS is a must in order to improve yourself, it's extremely helpful even for people who doesn't know how to play their jobs and it's the first thing that help you to improve in that way.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

Parser for DPS is a must in order to improve yourself, it's extremely helpful even for people who doesn't know how to play their jobs and it's the first thing that help you to improve in that way.

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Informing someone of their rotation and filling them in on boss mechanics and how it impacts their job role will do far far more for a new player than a parser ever will.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Informing someone of their rotation and filling them in on boss mechanics and how if impacts their job role will do far far more for a new player than a parser ever will.

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Sadly, information just doesn't cut it sometimes. Practice makes perfect.. except when there isn't a way to reliably gauge how well you're actually doing. Information on the class and boss mechanics can only take you so far. I've played MNK for a good while - being completely oblivious of my performance. I did the research, and I studied the rotations and priorities. Turns out I was pulling less than I should have (apologies for all those parties I've managed to flub up) after a good mate of mine nudged me about it. According to him, I'm now pulling about 410~425 on a training dummy, which is pretty decent.

There is always room for improvement, and a parser is one of many ways to determine it.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Informing someone of their rotation and filling them in on boss mechanics and how if impacts their job role will do far far more for a new player than a parser ever will.

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Absolutely no. :P
Informing someone of their rotation is already wrong: a good attitude for an end game player is to be curious about end game contents mechanics and his/her job rotation and not waiting random players tips about your own job. This attitude is extremely annoying, trust me. You will eventually receive tips from people but your first job is to run a solid rotation (as DPS or tank) and to practise a lot. The fact you're going to wait people telling you about your rotation is insulting and disrespectful. Parser is a must in any case.

Pro-tips: you wont start any end game content if you don't even know your own rotation.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Informing someone of their rotation and filling them in on boss mechanics and how it impacts their job role will do far far more for a new player than a parser ever will.

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They're not mutually exclusive, though.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Informing someone of their rotation and filling them in on boss mechanics and how it impacts their job role will do far far more for a new player than a parser ever will.

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I agree. Making rude comments does nothing but hurts the community and the game. I also agree that a tool to measure dps output is not the problem. Its how its used.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

Way too narrow of a view.

If Yoshi-P endorsed an official parser, you know damn well the extreme elitists are going to give newbies crap in tam-tara, satasha and even Crystal Tower raids.
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They already do that