This brings up a question for me, im a ps4 player and I have 2 raid groups, my main group is endgame heavy and 2nd contains good friends that I teach once lockouts are removed.
That being said, can the groups overall DPS boost or lower a players numbers based on how fast things die.
With my main raid im pulling lower numbers {75-100} then with my 2nd. Group of casual players
I listed some differences in mechanic handling
Dps in my main avgs about 470-500ish
Dps in 2nd ranges 330-400ish
Differences-
Main: my adds are killed first, I have downtime waiting for 2nd set to pop
2nd grp: same except son dies right before 2nd set pops
No downtime
Main: always tank swap during Hl/charge (why fix if it works mentality)
2nd grp: I solo tank and only swap if nec.Def on pul, off after rip and only reapply for rips charges.
Sorry for walloftext
300 DPS WAR - How are you pulling this number?
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04-03-2015, 03:57 AMrepoe
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04-03-2015, 05:58 AMstoxastic
That brings up a good point, in that the Raid DPS has a substantial effect on your own personal DPS as a tank.
If your raid DPS is high, then you might be spending less time in the non-adds phases of T10, which means that you are spending more time tanking and picking up adds as opposed to freely dpsing the boss.
High BLM dps means that T13 adds are killed much faster and will cause a lot of downtime during divebombs phase. High BLM dps will suppress melee and tank dps numbers.
If you raid DPS is low, it could also mean a tank spends more time smacking the gravity node in T11, which means more time having to kite it around and more time suffering the damage down penalty of the cube.
Low raid DPS might also mean you get more Bennus in T12. More bennus means more targets to overpower which means more dps. -
04-03-2015, 06:51 AMrepoe
Yea for my 2nd raid its just some friends who raid causally so their still gearing up. dps is fine In T11 but def don't think yet ready for 12 dps check.my main group still cleaning up add transition into terra and teaching a new member member which has slowed our 13 progression, but we're getting their lol
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04-04-2015, 06:26 AMSpookyGhost[WHM -> SCH] -> [BRD -> Caster] (brackets = interchangeable) actually makes things way easier for everyone. I dunno why so many people have the tanks and melee soak.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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04-04-2015, 07:28 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
Tanks and melee are already next to the fountain. Tanks can easily take 3 stacks. This allows BLMs to never move maxing their dps and healers can handle brand. The BRD is on reserve for any stack mess ups. Healers only need to worry about themselves and the tanks making their job very easy. T12 is one turn I think we have pretty much maxed out with my group. The only thing I would change is having the SCH take Redfire, we still use our BRD which is a DPS loss but we've been pushing 3 bennu for months. -
04-04-2015, 07:58 AMrepoe
Our group does tank4,dps2, dps2 we Also hold phenix next the fountain
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04-04-2015, 08:29 AMSpookyGhostMoving the boss to the fountain is what makes things more difficult than they need to be. If you let the ranged handle it it removes needing to move the boss all over the place, which I think is best. If you have the BLM move last they can just AM to the BRD which will cost them basically no DPS, SMN doesn't really have that problem b/c Ruin2. It's absolutely fine to use melee and move the boss, I just think that not moving the boss and having the ranged handle it makes things a lot smoother. Whatever strategy ends in the boss being dead is a good one, though. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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04-04-2015, 08:54 PMPerzeval
You could also let Tanks handle brand and have healers + 2 ranged DPS handle fountain. Phoenix never needs to be moved, ever.
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04-04-2015, 11:00 PMSirTaint
I guess its all Potato/Tomato. He is extremely easy to move since his only big attack is revelation, kinda like moving Twin around. The fountains are never too far either, especially the 3rd/4th if we even take that long.
Fountain spawns > move to fountain (positioned so the person in the fountain can DPS) > pop CD > revelation > tank swap > rinse and repeat
From a DPS stand point this lets the tanks go ham, no brand to worry about, PLD can tank in sword oath everything accept the WARs revelation. I need to make a video so you can see how clean it is. -
04-05-2015, 12:31 PMSleighI know how clean it can be. That said, I also know the cleanest way is having all ranged do it, and I say that from seeing every perspective of it, both putting tanks in and having all ranged do it. More downsides than upsides to having tanks do fountains, and please don't list BLM going in fountains as a downside, it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Aside from any movement, the biggest issue by far is that you have to tank swap to do it, which is a pointless hassle. PLD should handle it all, maximize both tanks in non-tank stances. Revelation 1 > good CDs + Virus, Revelation 2 HG, Revelation 3 > good CDs + Virus, dead by 4th unless your group is crap and otherwise just have WAR take it in Unchained and Provoke back after Unchained is done. -
04-05-2015, 07:34 PMRiyosA pld can't do 400 while mting if he's not full str with slaying/penta stuff and in sword oath ate least half of the timeQuote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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04-05-2015, 10:16 PMSirTaint
You mean sword oath the entire time. My highest last night in PUGs was 377 with hybrid accessories, nq food and no pots. With my static I can full i130 slaying the encounter which puts me right at 400.
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04-05-2015, 10:45 PMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
Why would brief tank swapping matter at all? -
04-06-2015, 01:18 AMkerooRealization
Since I started this thread, I want to share to you my realization about pushing DPS as warrior. I want to thank people who replied here and shared their knowledge.
1. Raid should have high DPS output to gain more DPS outcome on parses.
2. Pushing DPS in turns requires high-skill and very coordinated team, especially the tank-healer communication.
3. Pushing DPS over mechanic reaction: Pushing DPS requires to bypass some mechanics to consistently land hits. But it adds a more room for risk and mistakes that could wipe the raid.
4. Gaining more threats over Main Tank : With due respect to Main Tank, whatever gear he has, it will be a mess if you gain the aggro over the main tank with maximizing this rotation ; SE > BB > BB (HQ STR POT + Berserk + Internal Release). You might require to change the rotation in order to give space for threat distribution. -
04-06-2015, 05:23 PMFeylieI already go HAM. Pull in Sword Oath, stay in Sword Oath. Zero tank swaps. I take all Rev's. Our WAR is literally an extra DPS (besides Bennu).Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
There's no Potato/Tomato about it. If you want the fastest clears, you do it the most efficient way. -
04-06-2015, 07:45 PMPerzevalExactly. Some people in this thread treat high tank DPS like something that is easy as pie. It is not. It highly depends on your raid group's skill and how comfortable they are with the fight. Since spamming 1 2 3 (and the occasional shield swipe) and using a proper cooldown rotation is not a hard thing to do, you are basically just putting a heavier burden on your healer. If they are up to the challenge and can handle the extra incoming damage by mitigating them properly using Virus, SS and Adlo, good for you. Just never forget that high tank DPS is nothing one should brag about, it is rather an accomplishment made possible by your awesome healer(s).Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo
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04-06-2015, 11:11 PMEhayteAw you were so close to an awesome post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perzeval
High PLD DPS, I agree, is mostly on the healers and the group. Oh wow, you can go in Sword Oath, hit FoF when its on CD and hit Shield Swipe when its ready. However, good WAR DPS is a little trickier. This is largely a factor of their more complex rotations (not by a ton, but there are 3 and they all do different things), and the fact that they are currently to go-to off-tank, which means that a majority of the fight they are a DPS, but always have to keep tanking in the back of their mind while optimizing dps.
That means making sure you have an infuriate when needed, managing your CDs (which isn't hard, but its a thing), knowing when you can be cavalier with your zerks and when you need to save them, knowing when to be in and out of defiance, keeping uptime on SP when needed, trying to always keep up SE (esp if there is a NIN), getting in BBs when you can, keeping your fracture up without clipping it, and preferably applying it under a buff, combining cool-downs like Unchained and zerk, etc, etc.
You can be a WAR out of defiance tanking a whole fight and still have shit DPS, whereas if you are a Pally in SwOa its almost impossible to suck. -
04-07-2015, 12:26 AMPerzevalSince I main a WAR myself, I know you are right. But I was just trying to make a point. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
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04-07-2015, 12:32 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Feylie
Again, why does tank swapping lower DPS? There should be a slight gain from proper unchained usage and vengeance. -
04-07-2015, 12:49 AMFelorrThis. If your group has consistent dps, it makes it a lot easier for a warrior to plan defensive and offensive cooldowns. And then just like Ehayte says, line those up when they're needed for mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
Paladin pushing maximum dps while maintanking is similar. Sitting here typing this is actually making me second guess how much "easier" it is for paladin. Its really no different; planning your cooldowns to line up when theyre needed. I think the reason some people seem to think it is much easier is due to warriors having to manage wrath related cooldowns, but if you treat infuriate and unchained like the paladin cooldowns, its the same mindset and strategy. -
04-07-2015, 12:57 AMFeylieYeah, that's why we have WAR tanking the adds in P3, because Vengeance+Unchained+Berserk is silly, helps kill them faster. Fight's pretty much over by the time it's coming back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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04-07-2015, 01:07 AMFelorrNail on the head. You get the most out of all 8 players by having your tanks manage brand in the last phase and putting healers and ranged in the fountains. If youre trying to move the boss around there will inevitably be dps loss from tanks and melee (even if it is marginal). There shouldn't be a need to tank swap thanks to HG, but if something goes wrong and you know you'll need your warrior OT to take a revelation hit, you provoke and unchained for it and your paladin just takes it back after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feylie
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04-07-2015, 01:21 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Feylie
The silly assumption you are making is that a WAR needs Defiance up to tank Phoenix for the 10 second swap for Revelation.
At worst the DPS are missing an AA. Every melee has a gap closer and fountains never pop far from the starting point. Nothing more the a BLM pausing for half a GCD to position for the fountain.
From a tank DPS standpoint a tank swap doesn't hurt DPS at all. -
04-07-2015, 01:39 AMFeylieQuote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
The contradiction is real. You're only arguing with yourself at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
We already said we don't move the boss to the fountain. -
04-07-2015, 02:08 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Feylie
That's not a contradiction. Proper unchained usage is a DPS increase. It also requires dropping defiance when unchained is over.
If anything you are grasping at straws at this point.
I called the strategies potato/tomato and you insist yours is better. I'm still trying to find the DPS loss in moving the boss 5 steps vs having casters move. -
04-07-2015, 02:10 AMEhayteIts still different, you have a DoT to manage (applying over multiple targets, clipping/not clipping), using SE/BB/SP to maintain aggro, do dps, debuff the mobs defense, debuff the mobs offense, and you have Internal, Zerk, and Unchained to manage as opposed to just FoF. Also, Zerk comes with a pacify that can screw you with less than perfect communication or timing (tank swaps, trying to IB while pacified) its not crazy-hard but its another thing to think about; whereas FoF is just a "pop it when you can" CD that really doesn't need to be thought about. Also, PLD's defense operates completely outside of it's offense - you will ALWAYS be applying Halone anyways, and your defensive buffs are all off GCD, so you don't need to consider your offense at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felorr
With a WAR, you have to operate at least somewhat in the scope of your offense to get the best out of your defense, see: IB management. You always want IB for every tank buster if you can, which means you have to be infuriated for it. Which means saving infur or building stacks with an end-point in mind. Build stacks too soon and you are sitting on either an Unchained popping off or an extra 300 potency non-defiance-nerfed attack in IB for longer than you need. Build stacks too late and you are losing 20% mitigation on a huge hit. So, like I said, you either need to get good at timing those stacks, or have an infuriate on stand-by, which also means losing a free IB or popping unchained sooner. The longer you stay infuriated not using the stacks the more DPS you are losing.
DPS-wise, Paladin is exponentially easier than WAR. -
04-07-2015, 02:16 AMEhayteYeah but you can unchained while not tanking... Becoming the main tank doesn't magically give you the ability to unchain, unless your PLD is horseshit and hasn't built proper enmity to hold over you going into defiance for 10-12 GCDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Vengence is a pitiful dps increase against a single target. -
04-07-2015, 02:47 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
Right, where did I say otherwise?
Unchained is used three times in T12. The most important is with the initial 3 Bennu during phase 3. -
04-07-2015, 02:56 AMEhayteQuote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
You said there is a DPS gain from using Unchained, then you said that a WAR shouldn't be in Defiance to tank Phoenix. And then you mentioned a DPS gain during a tank swap by using vengeance and unchained. You certainly couldn't mean that you would turn on defiance and unchained after you come off of tanking, so by process of elimination you are saying that you should switch into defiance to go unchained after you provoke. My point being is that there would be a slight DPS gain from using Unchained even if you aren't tanking - you don't need a tank swap to use Unchained, and a tank swap would probably lower DPS because of the transitional 2-3 GCDs of the PLD not attacking so that you can cement enmity.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
You aren't totally off-base, and I would say it really depends on the group for which is better (moving Phoenix or not), you are just confusing the point by implying contradictions.
However, this thread is about WAR DPS, not overall group DPS on T12, so.... -
04-07-2015, 03:01 AMFelorrYes, and higher overall group dps will inflate individual numbers, WAR included. So if we're discussing maximizing WAR dps, we need to consider maximizing the group number as well. That being said, any strategy that inflates one person's dps while hindering the group's total number is, in my opinion, wrong. So I believe we're on the right track by accounting for raid damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
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04-07-2015, 03:23 AMFeylieThe DPS increase is this: After the first fountain, our BLM ignores them completely. BRD + SCH + WHM handle the 2nd(losing no DPS while doing so). Everyone completely ignores the 3rd. Boss dies right after the 3rd fountain spawns and Rev hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Our fastest clear time is 7:03, even though it's not the world record I welcome you to beat us and show us a more efficient way. -
04-07-2015, 03:25 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
PLDs do not have to stop DPSing with a good WAR.
The first 2 unchains are fixed in T12. Unchained during the first bennu, unchained during the add phases. The 3rd will come right around the end of the second fountain if I'm remembering correctly, but you won't get a 4th so using it anytime in the last phase works. -
04-07-2015, 03:31 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Feylie
7:03 is fast!
I stopped saving T12 parses months ago but we still meet one day a week, that's something to gun for. Healers taking 3 stacks? -
04-09-2015, 02:36 AMmelflomil
Yah adlo and stoneskin before the 3 hit is good
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04-09-2015, 08:37 AMFeylieNo. After the first fountain we let the last 2 ticks of the second hit the boss. And then the 3rd is completely ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint