Help me understand t10 a bit

This looks like a pure dps problem. Even when we have some death ppl due to some mistakes, we still make it before the enrage timer.

I think some of your dps stop doing dps while doing the mechanics (ofcourse this is needed sometimes for melee, but even then melee should try to limit the time needed to stop hitting).

Change ur setup for 2 melees 1 bards and 1 bm and make ur scholar dps between mechanics transition, that should solve ur problems. Also, remember ur mates to pop their cooldowns when they can and not only for a phase start/push transition.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

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Phase 1 depends, we have passed with one charge, then some times we get two charges but the bosses hp falls to 80% during the second charge/add summon phase.

Before the second adds we get two charges

In what order are you killing the adds?


Also we run 2 BLM, no problems with enrage.

There is no need for 2150+ dps for T10 but 2050 dps over the whole fight

Here is my group's first down for T10 with a MNK-BRD-SMN-BLM comp, 2075 dps, 10:26 (so 4 seconds before enrage. We have been a fair amount of time behind the 10:30 point, and it's survivable until around 10:55, then that damn cat uses the charge again, which is not realistically survivable because there are no safe spots left so it's either your WHM has timed the heal well or 3 people die immediately after the charge)

http://i.imgur.com/qxMdi92.png


We improved a few things after and are now around the 10 mins mark, working on T11.

for the record, LB used are caster LB3 for 2nd set of adds, and melee LB3 when available. On this parse we had to paeon once and ballad once, but we did T10 last week without a bard and it went fine (DRG, MNK, BLM, BLM)

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Originally Posted by MythToken

If you can't eat the charge, just let the marked person die.

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on paper yeah, but during enrage you'd want to avoid as much as possible to eat the debuff + boss buff, especially for the first down. Now that we are on farm status ( we carried someone who had a good dps but no clue bout the mechanics 2 weeks ago. They were nearly wiping us on every link), we just burn through the death if we have to let someone die.

If you can't eat the charge, just let the marked person die.

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

Phase 1 depends, we have passed with one charge, then some times we get two charges but the bosses hp falls to 80% during the second charge/add summon phase.

Before the second adds we get two charges

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If that’s the case, then you’re still on track. So, i really think that it’s just a matter of getting comfortable with the last phase (which will be tricky at first). Just keep practicing. You can do it! (^_~ )-b

Just keep this in mind:

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Originally Posted by Death And Taxes Guide to Turn 10

Phase 5 – “The final countdown”

Abilities:
Electric Surge - Roomwide AOE that comes periodically and reduces lightning resistance.
Heat Lightning - Same as before
Cyclonic Chaos - A random party member is tethered to the boss, two players must stack with him within a few seconds to spread the damage. Players receive a vulnerability debuff after the explosion.
Prey - Same as P1 and P3.
Critical Rip - Same as P1 and P3.

Notes:
The key to this phase is managing vulnerability debuffs and positioning. During the final phase of the fight, the room shrinks down to only the inner circle. There are several ability combinations/sequences to look out for. The rotation does not appear to be fixed.

[1] Heat Lightning -> Cyclonic Chaos (Tether). Raid must be spread and those who aren't debuffed by Heat Lightning need to stack in for Cyclonic Chaos.

[2] Heat Lightning -> Wild Charge. Same as in Phase 3.

[3] Cyclonic Chaos (Tether) -> Wild Charge.

These combinations will alternate between [1] > [2 or 3] > [1] > [2 or 3] - There will not be two charge rotations in a row.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

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to add a little bit to their work

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Originally Posted by Death And Taxes Guide to Turn 10

Phase 5 – “The final countdown”

Abilities:
Electric Surge - Roomwide AOE that comes periodically and reduces lightning resistance.
Heat Lightning - Same as before
Cyclonic Chaos - A random party member is tethered to the boss, two players must stack with him within a few seconds to spread the damage. Players receive a vulnerability debuff after the explosion.
Prey - Same as P1 and P3.
Critical Rip - Same as P1 and P3.

Notes:
The key to this phase is managing vulnerability debuffs and positioning. During the final phase of the fight, the room shrinks down to only the inner circle. There are several ability combinations/sequences to look out for. The rotation does not appear to be fixed.

[1] Heat Lightning -> Cyclonic Chaos (Tether). Raid must be spread and those who aren't debuffed by Heat Lightning need to stack in for Cyclonic Chaos.

[2] Heat Lightning -> Wild Charge. Same as in Phase 3.

[3] Cyclonic Chaos (Tether) -> Wild Charge.

These combinations will alternate between [1] > [2 or 3] > [1] > [2 or 3] - There will not be two charge rotations in a row.

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After [1], Imdugud will perform in order :
critical rip
prey
then crackle hiss iirc
then it'll do either [2] or [3]

I'm sure you're aware that during phase 3, the boss does a room wide AoE which buffs him and adds a "lightning vulnerability" debuff on everyone. It will also do it if you fail at the prey mechanic (if someone eats the paralyzing bomb). You can prevent that by pre-shielding the tank before the critical rip so you only have to worry about who will get the prey.

The moment we realized that (the boss doesn't hit really had after the critical rip so the SCH can focus on the prey), it was way easier for us to handle mechanics.

We announced [1], did it, shields, CDs, prey managing while bursting, then [2] or [3], rinse and repeat. It's easier to have the OT do the announces as they do not have many things to do after that. Just dish out as much dps as they can while surviving the charges.

even if your damage are a bit low during mechanics because you're afraid to fail, if you know what's coming and when it's coming, it becomes way easier to do high damages during down time.

After [1], you have a fair amount of time to burst like crazy until [2] or [3] comes. Only the healers have to worry about anything during that down time. After the second mechanic combo, you also have a fair amount of time to burst before [1] comes again.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

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Thank you! I think with this group i will suggest a change that, unless a blm is marked for charge, that the two blm dont go in for wild charge and keep dps'ing, that might be the problem as we all gather in. Same thing with the heat lighting + tether soak.

i think a better question to ask OP is what % of health is the boss at when you hit enrage?

I'm going to echo the likelihood that the cause is having two blm. But it's not necessarily the fact that you have two blm, but that either or both blm are...not that skilled. Note: I am assuming the entire group is similarly geared, 125-130 with zodiac or zeta (however, 125-129 should be where everyone is at this point), so gear isn't the issue.

You should parse or get a video of the fight and try to find the weak link, and figure out how to strengthen it (dummy fighting, more practicing while moving....worst comes to worst, replace)

My personal measure for DPS in T10 was always matching each ring to a HP % threshold. When the last outer ring turns blue the boss has to be at LEAST below 20% HP. If it's not below that you probably won't make it.

I'd agree with the other posters in thinking the two BLMs may be the issue. I would suggest switching one of them for a SMN or a melee if possible. With that said it should still be entirely possible to clear the fight with your current party composition. I know a lot of players tend to get distracted by mechanics to the point that they stop casting whilst handling something (I'm guilty of this on SMN when first learning fights) so I would suggest that as a focus for improvement first of all.

Some blms fall to pieces when they have to move. You often see blm cited as the easiest dps to play due to their short and simple rotation, but the "always be casting" has to be learned through experience. BLM is definitely the hardest class to play in movement heavy fights. The striking dummy is least useful for BLM, out of all the dps classes. And t10 is stupid easy for melee dps. ( in fact all of final coil is pretty easy for them? xD ). Just to note also, t11 and 13 are the harder phases for BLM than t10, a lot of movement which can interrupt blms.

Your sure one of your BLMs wouldn't fancy playing a melee?

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

i think a better question to ask OP is what % of health is the boss at when you hit enrage?

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28% the last time he hit enrage. we had lvl 3 limit break but did not use it. think melee might have just died

Honestly... it's a DPS problem. I can't really say much more than that because of SE's hardline stance against measuring DPS.

Get some experienced raiders to check your group out in game, though. They'll be equipped and able to identify problems.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

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Your sure one of your BLMs wouldn't fancy playing a melee?

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I have a fully upgraded/augemented BLM with zeta, ilvl 130. I am in the process of running WOD and buying ironworks gear to gear up my ninja. Probably gonna run shiva to get true ice daggers and shiva ring while i get zodiac (currently on atma >.>) Like i said, this group im willing to go a different class, however, when i go with my FC, im usually the black mage.


On a side note, someone noted that my dps was 260 in T9, i have read that is about average for a blm in t9 since we move around alot and dps drops during golem phase. Is that true?

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

28% the last time he hit enrage. we had lvl 3 limit break but did not use it. think melee might have just died

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that sounds awfully high. Are people constantly dieing on P3 ? slacking ? Waiting for mechanics to happen before doing anything ? With your assumed dps (6 & 8 stacks for adds), you should hit enrage, if ever, at 10% top, even without using LB3 in P3.

28% sounds like a dangerous 9 & 13 stacks like my group did on our first time ever reaching enrage (26% after using heal LB @10:25), before we started optimizing dps (until then, we were surviving to master mechanics and hit enrage)

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

On a side note, someone noted that my dps was 260 in T9, i have read that is about average for a blm in t9 since we move around alot and dps drops during golem phase. Is that true?

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the BLM on the parse I posted averaged 330 dps on T9 when we passed it. Full lengh duration so the numbers drop by quite a bit during downtime (meteors and when nael goes for dives).

I can't say for sure, but assuming the number you told was with echo, I'd say you're averaging 280-290 on T10 (if the T9 is without echo, more around 320-330), which is kinda low for a zeta BLM. You'd like to work on your rotations maybe :/

Please don't take this the wrong way but... that's very low for BLM, especially with echo, even with the movement and pauses in t9.

As others have mentioned, a huge part of BLM is learning to manage movement and really make the most out of every moment... Learning to stutter step, use aetherial manipulation, etc. I don't main BLM or even play it really so a guide could give you much better tips and techniques. Check your FC, etc to see if there are any raiding BLMs that can give you tips as well.

see my FC has never complained about my dps. So i assumed my rotation is fine.

I followed a guide for ninja and seems i got that rotation down pat. Is there a good guide for blm?

I basically start with thunder 3, Fire 3, Raging strikes, fire 1 until low mp then go either dual flare or transpose, bliz, thunder 3, fire 3, fire 1 ect

Yeah, if you're soft enraging at 28%, there's definitely something amiss with your DPS, especially if all your DPS are as geared as you are.

As many have suggested, learning the nuances of BLM will help immensely. Alternatively, you may wish to have one of the BLMs try SMN as SMN tends to have an easier time with more movement intensive fights. SMN is in a poor spot at the moment, admittedly, but the breath of fresh air may help out immensely - only you'll know if you try that route.

If you are hitting enrage without deaths then it's absolutely a DPS issue. That's what hitting an enrage timer generally means. I'd have to guess people are freaking out in the last phase doing mechanics and are severely slacking on dps. Your buff stacks on the boss during add phase are certainly doable so that's my thoughts.

Also, 2 BLM isn't the problem. I frequently am in 2nd' or 3rd place in my group with a Nin and Monk. Me and the Nin swap places and we are only ever 20 or so behind the monk. BLM can do this fight perfectly fine. It's a matter of experience with the mechanics and having BLM that understand how to move well. T11 is when BLM gets really rough and I'd agree 2 BLM are bad.

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

I have a fully upgraded/augemented BLM with zeta, ilvl 130. I am in the process of running WOD and buying ironworks gear to gear up my ninja. Probably gonna run shiva to get true ice daggers and shiva ring while i get zodiac (currently on atma >.>) Like i said, this group im willing to go a different class, however, when i go with my FC, im usually the black mage.


On a side note, someone noted that my dps was 260 in T9, i have read that is about average for a blm in t9 since we move around alot and dps drops during golem phase. Is that true?

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As the above user has said, that is incredibly low for T9 especially at this point in the game. For an ilvl 130 BLM with Zeta I would expect somewhere in the 400s (I forget the last I was at in there exactly). You should be to able to get minimal interruption in your rotation.

If you are doing comparable dps in T10 and the other BLM is too, then that would be your issue most likely.

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

see my FC has never complained about my dps. So i assumed my rotation is fine.

I followed a guide for ninja and seems i got that rotation down pat. Is there a good guide for blm?

I basically start with thunder 3, Fire 3, Raging strikes, fire 1 until low mp then go either dual flare or transpose, bliz, thunder 3, fire 3, fire 1 ect

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Rotation isn't the issue with blms, it's usually the dps lost due to not casting, be it from focusing too much on mechanics or moving too much to avoid aoes. Takes a lot of practice and it's one of the harder classes to play at a high level I would think.

T9 is a kinda poor indication of ur dps in t10 though. I'd look for a t10 parse asap if I were you.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Yeah, if you're soft enraging at 28%, there's definitely something amiss with your DPS, especially if all your DPS are as geared as you are.

As many have suggested, learning the nuances of BLM will help immensely. Alternatively, you may wish to have one of the BLMs try SMN as SMN tends to have an easier time with more movement intensive fights. SMN is in a poor spot at the moment, admittedly, but the breath of fresh air may help out immensely - only you'll know if you try that route.

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funny you should mention that, i started and finished 1.0 as a pug, and started 2.0 as a smn... i still have a lvl 50 smn, i just never started the relic upgrade because i switched to blm lol

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

I basically start with thunder 3, Fire 3, Raging strikes, fire 1 until low mp then go either dual flare or transpose, bliz, thunder 3, fire 3, fire 1 ect

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Do you mean u cast 2 flares? hard cast flare is terrible 1v1 dps.


Thu II/III--->Fire III --->(raging strikes) fire I until low--->swiftcast flare-->convert-->fire I-->Bliz III

The above is how to flare and use RS effectively in 1v1.

Edit: I also notice the presence of transpose in a 1v1 rotation? never do this man xD. I advise check out a BLM guide. If I'm understanding you correctly it appears you'r cutting yourself short on a lot of easy damage mate.

For your BLM Rotation:

Thunder III on the approach -> Fire III -> Raging Strikes -> Fire I -> Quelling strikes (ONLY IF NECESSARY) -> Fire I Spam to low-ish MP -> Swift Cast Flare -> Convert -> Fire I -> Blizzard III -> Blizzard I -> Thunder II -> Fire III -> Fire I spam -> Blizzard III

That should be what your cycle looks like.

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If you want, I can come out to you sometime on Hyperion and roll an alt there to watch your rotation at Summerford Farms. We can discuss things like the most important aspect - which is 'skiing' your casts, basically taking advantage of the fact that you can move in the last couple %'s of a BLM cast without interruption to get minor movement done.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Rotation isn't the issue with blms, it's usually the dps lost due to not casting, be it from focusing too much on mechanics or moving too much to avoid aoes. Takes a lot of practice and it's one of the harder classes to play at a high level I would think.

T9 is a kinda poor indication of ur dps in t10 though. I'd look for a t10 parse asap if I were you.

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Thanks, i think maybe rather than doing dual flares, i should reduce the amount of down time i have by doing thunder 3, fire 3, raging strikes, fire 1, swift cast flare, convert + transpose ice, thunder 3 ect. i sometimes find myself sitting for 5 seconds or so waiting for transpose to give me my starter mp.

not to mention im 100% positive i did not have food popped when they told me my dps on that run

edit--just noticed the other replies not to use transpose, how does that work, i have always understood transpose as a way of regenerating your MP quickly

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

see my FC has never complained about my dps. So i assumed my rotation is fine.

I followed a guide for ninja and seems i got that rotation down pat. Is there a good guide for blm?

I basically start with thunder 3, Fire 3, Raging strikes, fire 1 until low mp then go either dual flare or transpose, bliz, thunder 3, fire 3, fire 1 ect

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This comes back to SE's formal policy on not allowing parsers (but really it's more like fight club rules). People in dungeons WOULD get harassed, because people will be blunt to strangers. But in an FC or similarly close group, people won't actually call you out a lot of the time. And to be fair, that DPS is enough (not ideal, but enough) in a lot of non-raid content.

I'm at work but a quick google brought up some "endgame tips and tricks" youtube videos for BLM. Unless someone personally recommends a guide, I would start there. Just remember, it might be more about movement than your rotation. BLM really is about making the most of every possible moment. Also, getting an experienced BLM to come along for a night and give feedback could help a lot.

Good luck! And, thanks for being a player willing to improve. Too many on these forums will just complain.

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

thunder 3, fire 3, raging strikes, fire 1, swift cast flare, convert + transpose ice, thunder 3 ect. i sometimes find myself sitting for 5 seconds or so waiting for transpose to give me my starter mp.

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Dude....xD

Going to be frank now, you're doing it SERIOUSLY wrong. That's ok . You'r here to seek advice.

After u convert, u cast another fire I and then u cast Bliz III.NO TRANSPOSE xc IN 1V1. EVER!

Here is a simple starter BLM rotation.

Thu ii/iii, fire III, fire I until low, Bliz III, thun II, Fire III ( repeat cycle )

If you want to use flare and raging strikes, see my previous post.

If you want to aoe:

Fire III, fire II ( repeat till low ) flare transpose

Double flare:

Fire III, fire II ( till low.. ), flare, convert flare, transpose.

Tripple flare

Fire III, fire II ( till low ), flare, convert, flare, mega ether, flare, transpose.

Swiftcasting any of the flares is advised too for even better dps.

Better yet, as the guy above said, make a blm friend in game!

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

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I am not a good BLM so don't take me for granted, but I achieve 330 dps on T9 as an i110 BLM (diamond rod) with my "rotation" :

thunder 3 pre-cast, else thunder 2 if I don't precast (because it's quicker), fire 3, RS, fire 1 and using every proc I get (thunder 3 for thundercloud, and always use thundercloud before the fire 3 proc), then follow the scenarios :

=> swiftcast and conversion are up : swift flare, conversion, fire 1 in hope for a proc, blizz3, thunder 2, fire 3.
=> only swiftcast up : swift flare, transpo and hope for a quick MP tick, blizz, thunder 2, fire 3
=> none up : blizz3, thunder 2, fire 3


I chose thunder 2 over thunder 3 because it's quicker, you can use your procs for thunder 3. And unless you're in an AoE situation, I don't find the use for a double/triple flare. it costs too much in time to justify it (though specifically on T9 when the dragon pops, I do use the double/triple flare to speed up the P4)


edit : so reading posts above mine, I now know I still have a lot to learn. All the way up :p

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Swiftcasting any of the flares is advised too for even better dps.

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people either advise to swiftcast the first (saves time for convert) or the last flare you do (saves time for transpose). In AoE situations, you'll want to swiftcast the last one though, because it's the less likely one to hit before the target dies.

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

edit--just noticed the other replies not to use transpose, how does that work, i have always understood transpose as a way of regenerating your MP quickly

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Transpose is only to be used if you can not Blizzard III. Transpose basically takes your full stacks of Astral Fire, and turns them into a single stack of Umbral Ice. While it will start giving you MP back, it won't do it nearly as fast as a full stack of Umbral Ice will.

Transpose is ONLY to be used when you know your stacks will wear off (Think Nael jumping for double dives, and you're in astral Fire.) or when you dont' have the MP to Blizzard III (Which should never happen but CAN happen if you mismanage your MP) Edit-in: Or if you're triple flare rotation for an AoE pull.

This is why, as we said, ending with swift cast + Flare -> Convert -> Fire I -> Blizzard III will substantially help your DPS. NEVER Transpose if you dont' have to. That is a HUGE dps loss.

wow thanks for everyone helping fix my blm >.< i have gone this whole time not really knowing i was doing wrong. someone in my FC (previous, not current) gave me that rotation and i ran with it

I should have looked up blm rotation while i was looking at the nin rot

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

wow thanks for everyone helping fix my blm >.< i have gone this whole time not really knowing i was doing wrong. someone in my FC (previous, not current) gave me that rotation and i ran with it

I should have looked up blm rotation while i was looking at the nin rot

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would you like to meet up on Hyperion sometime and take a look at it? I won't be able to show you a rotation unless you want to come to balmung and watch, but we could try and see how your other aspects go together if you like. Sometimes one on one time on a dummy can be helpful.

Actually there is a time to transpose in 1v1. When you went into umbral ice and you have fire proc, transpose to astral fire I before using the firestarter proc. Better to use that proc in AF1 rather than UI III.

Make sure you have full MP before you finish casting fire III. If you wont have full mp, You can use this time to throw a bliz I while you wait for full MP. VERY important to cast fire III with full MP. U don't wanna lose a fire 1 cast.

Do you always have the MP to cast thunder II after casting bliz III? it may be worth adding a point or 2 to piety to reach that ideal level.

Think I emptied my limited supply of blm tips in these posts, I only played it for mythflox mule lmao. Good luck with learning more and T10.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Actually there is a time to transpose in 1v1. When you went into umbral ice and you have fire proc, transpose to astral fire I before using the firestarter proc.

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Mm. True, that happens if you manage to get a firestarter proc off your last Fire I cast before Blizzard III :) Thanks for the reminder.

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Do you always have the MP to cast thunder II after casting bliz III? it may be worth adding a point or 2 to piety to reach that ideal level.

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This is why it's Blizzard III -> Blizzard I -> Thunder II. If you get lucky with your trick and get it in time to get it for Thunder II, you risk casting Fire III and having lower MP. Padding a Blizzard I there is almost-always garunteed and gives you gap to get MP back for Thunder II.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

would you like to meet up on Hyperion sometime and take a look at it? I won't be able to show you a rotation unless you want to come to balmung and watch, but we could try and see how your other aspects go together if you like. Sometimes one on one time on a dummy can be helpful.

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That would be helpful >.< Im gonna try it when i get home on the test dummy at my FC house

I know that some BLM have a hard time switching things up and getting used to it. As a SCH in Keeper of the Lake I helped with a BLM who was using Fire III spam until OoMP and then Blizz III spam to full and then Fire III again. Another recommendation outside of working on this rotation is making sure you move the least amount of time as possible. As BLM in FCOB working on T13 (6% why), the only times I move in T10 are when A) Wild Charge, B) I have no heat lightning debuff and need to soak, and c) moving into the middle to deal with Adds.

Typically if I can't switch to Umbra III and I can't swift or proc any casts while moving, I will scathe or transpose into Umbra I. This way when I can cast I will be ready with mostly full MP in Astral phase.

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

28% the last time he hit enrage. we had lvl 3 limit break but did not use it. think melee might have just died

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and problem found. it was mentioned before but ST dps need to be much higher. from the looks of it, its either slow thru out the fight, or slow after adds.

It's good you've found your DPS issue, op, but don't forget to look at everyone else as well. 28% at enrage with almost no deaths isn't caused by 1 person at your gear level, it's caused by multiple people doing poorly. (I'm actually shocked you could hit enrage at that % with so few deaths at this point...)

Get your group together and work on rotations and learning how to deal with mechanics

Wait nope, I just can't read.