Pure RNG is the worst thing ever.

The rates and outcomes where stated from the get go. "Not eveyone will complete the Relic Quest." I think this statement is FAIR. The results known, everyone is on the same playing feild with the SAME rates and percentages (no one could cheat RNG). The only thing you can do is "NOT PLAY" the game, If you dont like RNG. I've been the victem of RNG, I'm 0 out 30 on Shiva Ex for the SMN Book and I'm 0 out 6 for the BLM coat in WOD (this with rolling need). I may not like this but it FAIR.

If you've ever played any of SMT games, you'd know you what pure RNG hell was. You never had more then a 50% chance of being Instantly killed by a light or dark spell. All this without being able to save for hours of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

I take stats class if you take programming class, deal?

We can discuss with formulas if you like, but then most of the others will quit discussion...

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There is no discussion. Rolling a dice by yourself is no different than taking turns rolling dice with a group. I am just as likely to roll 1 twice in a row regardless if I roll back to back, or once and then let 5 others roll then I roll again. As for the programming version where there's a pattern (usually pretty darn long anyway) there is no way to make sure X people went between your rolls to somehow trap you in the permanent cycle of the same number. The odds of you landing in the same spot repeatedly is astronomically low. Ultimately your place in the pattern (if they use that type of programming which we can't even verify. Speculation is bad mmkay) would be random. 2 leveled of rng still apply to the same.rule of averages as 1 level of rng.

Hiding behind 'there is no TRUE rng with programming' doesn't change the fact that from a players perspective it is functionally random as we can't control the variables to determine the outcome and will ultimately fall under a bell curve of results with more attempts. The no 'true' rng algorithm junk is semantics. The results for players mirror randomness, even If technically they are not. Functionally random.

Tldr: no matter how they are doing the rng on the back end, it is "functionally" rng to the user because we cannot control the variables as there are to many moving parts for 1 player to have an impact. More attempts will always move you closer to the intended avg.

As iterated... it's fair from a top down, distribution perspective, yes. From an individual's perspective... no, no it is not.

And, no. Not playing is NOT the only option. We can give feedback. We can suggest alternatives. We can ask for outliers to be normalized. Which many in this thread and previous ones have been doing.

Imagine if this was a thing in real life.
"Oh sorry buddy, you didn't get your raise this year, rng determined the guy who did 1/4 of the work you did actually deserved it. Good luck, try again. Or don't, just quit life if you don't like it."
Super fair.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

And, no. Not playing is NOT the only option. We can give feedback. We can suggest alternatives. We can ask for outliers to be normalized. Which many in this thread and previous ones have been doing.

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Incoming White knights and self proclaim hardworkers.

You need to run before the impale you due to their principles.

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Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles

But I get confused when people talk about it in relation to party loot. Is the game supposed to keep track of how many times you've run each instance and how long it's been since you last saw a drop for you class in that instance and how many times you've rolled on it and lost? And then also weighing that against your party members in 4 person 8 person and 24 person instances.

That's a LOT of information for the game to keep track of and SE has already said on multiple occasions that they are taxing their servers heavily already with the amount of personal data they send back and forth.

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i've got two words for you "Rowena's Token".

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Its FAIR because how else do you TEACH or TELL a computer to hand out items in a fair and even maner.

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and i've got another two words for you "Diamond Dust".

it's not like they don't know how to do it right, they just decide not to.

What would you prefer: 10% chance of an item dropping at the end of a dungeon or completing that dungeon 100 times to get the item? I personally would prefer the 10% chance because that's possibly up to 99 dungeon runs I wouldn't have to do. You could argue "But what if it takes you more than 100 runs and still not get that item?" and I'll tell you "The odds of that are extremely low and only the lowest percentile of people would even come close to having such bad luck".

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Imagine if this was a thing in real life.
"Oh sorry buddy, you didn't get your raise this year, rng determined the guy who did 1/4 of the work you did actually deserved it. Good luck, try again. Or don't, just quit life if you don't like it."
Super fair.

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Well that's just silly, and not even remotely analogus. how about...
"You but a $1 lottery ticket every week for ten years, another person buys one for the first time only this week, you have both completed the same task this week. Draw comes up and their number hits and yet again, yours doesn't"
That seems more analogus to running content and hoping for a drop, wouldn't you say.
Did they not deserve it because you've been buying tickets for longer? I mean you've been doing more "work" in this case as well.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Imagine if this was a thing in real life.
"Oh sorry buddy, you didn't get your raise this year, rng determined the guy who did 1/4 of the work you did actually deserved it. Good luck, try again. Or don't, just quit life if you don't like it."
Super fair.

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Life is RNG. From the day you are born RNG is with you. Be born ugly, fat, stupid or Ill . All out of your control (nature's form of RNG is DNA). If you never wanted to be the victim of RNG you'd never be able to leave the house. Randomness is Everwhere. This idea of work should = award is very nice indeed. But, Who determines how much work is needed to get the reward? " I feel ALL my work should earn me awards" Kinda one sided statement there....

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Originally Posted by Heskett

What would you prefer: 10% chance of an item dropping at the end of a dungeon or completing that dungeon 100 times to get the item? I personally would prefer the 10% chance because that's possibly up to 99 dungeon runs I wouldn't have to do. You could argue "But what if it takes you more than 100 runs and still not get that item?" and I'll tell you "The odds of that are extremely low and only the lowest percentile of people would even come close to having such bad luck".

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So here's what you do. You have that 10% drop rate (though in XIV in some cases it's more like 2%). You also have a token drop. After collecting a certain number of tokens (in your example 100, but that's a bit much IMO), you can trade it for the item if RNG hates you.

See, XIV has over 4 million accounts, probably around 500k active subscribers. Even if there's only a 0.1% chance of having that really terrible luck, that's still hundreds of people you're writing off.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Well that's just silly, and not even remotely analogus. how about...
"You but a $1 lottery ticket every week for ten years, another person buys one for the first time only this week, you have both completed the same task this week. Draw comes up and their number hits and yet again, yours doesn't"
That seems more analogus to running content and hoping for a drop, wouldn't you say.
Did they not deserve it because you've been buying tickets for longer? I mean you've been doing more "work" in this case as well.

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And that is why lottery is often referred to as a "math tax". Lotteries and casinos are designed to take advantage of cognitive biases in people. Our online, fantasy virtual worlds do not have to be this way.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

So here's what you do. You have that 10% drop rate (though in XIV in some cases it's more like 2%). You also have a token drop. After collecting a certain number of tokens (in your example 100, but that's a bit much IMO), you can trade it for the item if RNG hates you.

See, XIV has over 4 million accounts, probably around 500k active subscribers. Even if there's only a 0.1% of having that really terrible luck, that's still hundreds of people you're writing off.

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I think it's anti-climatic and makes the reward less well... rewarding. I'm all for RNG just for that moment where you go "omg finally" or "yaaaas".

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

.... RNG is the computer's form of FAIRNESS. ....

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Sorry, but just like a computer/program/software/alogrithm can not "tell or deem who is worthy", the RNG is not a substitute for fairness. Fairness is a human set policy that is beyond the realm of a Turing complete machine. RNG doesn't even begin to be fair or define fair.

The fairness that exist with a system that uses some RNG is that SE has let player chose to play by those same rules knowing that RNG dictate their odds to win loot.

The thing is, bottom line, there will always be two camps on this. One side likes to have unbounded RNG, often because they have been lucky and the other side which wants to have RNG bounded, so that RNG can only be early and never late. SE has both in play, but for some items it is unbounded RNG that frustrates those that want the drop to happen after X amount of tries/times.

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Originally Posted by Heskett

What would you prefer: 10% chance of an item dropping at the end of a dungeon or completing that dungeon 100 times to get the item? I personally would prefer the 10% chance because that's possibly up to 99 dungeon runs I wouldn't have to do. You could argue "But what if it takes you more than 100 runs and still not get that item?" and I'll tell you "The odds of that are extremely low and only the lowest percentile of people would even come close to having such bad luck".

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Uh... That has a name...gambler's fallacy

The odds of that happening are actually statistically LIKELY

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Uh... That has a name...gambler's fallacy

The odds of that happening are actually statistically LIKELY

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I'd say certain, which such a huge sample size. But yeah, Heskett, this is exactly the sort of cognitive effect casinos and their ilk exploit.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I'd say certain, which such a huge sample size. But yeah, Heskett, this is exactly the sort of cognitive effect casinos and their ilk exploit.

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Exactly. The unbounded RNG with odds set to favor the house will over time make the Casinos lots of money and they need people to gladly contribute voting with both feet.

I lost 55 chances to get dark cloud minion so far. >_>
I did the whole run from the start. Didnt died once and roll a friggin' 1! While the other teammember was afking around - died ALOT and rolled a 98 and won!!
Or people DARE to roll on an item when they just enterd CT3 during finalboss fight? Those people should get a lockout on rolls as well!

How is this fair or even "funny"? <-<

RNG in this game is the worst "enemy/option" I have ever seen.

@Izsha: The Problem is not the player determine what is coming next, the problem lies within the system to have TOTAL calculation LIMITS. You will have repeateble paterns and as long as you repeat it as individual (as in sologames) you are changeing the odds by hitting other "spots". So now we have MASSIVELY MANY players and each dot/spot in a grafical shown RNG position is "ONE" player! So you have ONE system but many players (dots) and not one player repeating the chances!

To have statistical results you need to look into each "dot" individually and not the system by saying the dots are fine because the problem as said are in fact the system limits! It is true, that most of the time you will get average or lets say "near average" results depending how much tollerance you give it but in fact the deeper you dive in you will see its not correct and too generic!

So, the problem is you can NOT go and argue with basic statistics about the system, because it is not as simple, instead you need to make statistics about how possible it is the "same" dot beeing in the same "good" or "bad" Situation. If you say "astronomical low" and "pretty darn long" it shows me you have not calculated it or you have no idea what you are saying. Will we start doing some statistic wars now? When saying you will likeley get double loot ingame than beeing hit from the lighning in real life! Or what about having accident on a plane... The more you increase the tries on the "system". It does indeed make no difference if you alone roll the dice 100.000 times or if you and your friends hit 100.000 rolls together! The Problem you will get is to have other influences like: Is each of your friend roll the dice with same speed to same direcrtion and so on... just dive deeper! We are not talking about the "player" because then you are right, we are talking about the SYSTEM...

Please watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tN2ev3hO14

https://www.random.org/analysis/dilbert.jpg

Edit: If you like to go a bit deeper, you may like this little text...
http://www.cmi.univ-mrs.fr/~golubev/srcpdf/rng_test.pdf

All he said was 'I'd take 10% drop over 100 dungeon quota because the odds of ME being the guy doing 100+ runs is low". That's not gamblers falacy at all. That's just going with odds in your favor. The vast majority of players would get their drops in way under 100 runs. Complete misapplication of gamblers falacy. That would be the same as "I'm planning on going to the casino and loosing money because that's the more likely outcome". That's just a statement of statistical fact.

RNG should never be used to take from a player and completely negate time/effort/money. It should only be used for boosts of some kind. Take the light grinds; they'd operate as normal, but by a low % you'd have a chance to get a double-potency light gain. Or for the dungeon drops, each completion should go towards a token of some sort that can be used to acquire the thing after 10 runs or what have you, but there's also the small chance you get the end result and it discards the tokens.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

All he said was 'I'd take 10% drop over 100 dungeon quota because the odds of ME being the guy doing 100+ runs is low". That's not gamblers falacy at all. That's just going with odds in your favor. The vast majority of players would get their drops in way under 100 runs. Complete misapplication of gamblers falacy. That would be the same as "I'm planning on going to the casino and loosing money because that's the more likely outcome". That's just a statement of statistical fact.

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It's not one or the other, though. Take a look at hunts. After 3000 seals, you'll get your carbontwine even if drop RNG hates you. But if you have a lucky streak, maybe you won't need to buy even 1 log! There's actually several systems like this in game, it's just rare and inconsistent.

So, again. You can have the 10% chance. Just... normalize the outliers. That's what I (and I think many others) are asking from SE. Normalize the damn outliers ;）

tbh I prefer rng more than how light farming works. I loved the atma part, and I loved the dungeon drop part. The light, alexandrite, books and zeta werent fun for me.
Maybe because everything else in this game is like "do one ex roulette a day to get almost best items in game" and I don't really like that. I prefer drops from dungeons, or maybe gathering rare materiels for crafted items a lot more. Just because I want to do a dungeon hoping my item will drop, but right now it's "complete dungeon, get free best items".

I actually made an alt where I'm doing all the ilvl 55 dungeons over and over to get enough gear to be able to do ilvl 70 dungeons. And I will do the same until the latest dungeons. Unfortunately that's where it stops for me unless I do some 2nd coil raids which will get me some ilvl 110 gear. The raids can't usually be done in duty finder though so that is gonna suck

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Or people DARE to roll on an item when they just enterd CT3 during finalboss fight? Those people should get a lockout on rolls as well!

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Who are you to say what people can or cannot roll on? If someone joins in progress they're filling a need the party had. If people got locked out from loot/drops from joining in progress, nobody would ever join WoD in progress. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Who are you to say what people can or cannot roll on? If someone joins in progress they're filling a need the party had. If people got locked out from loot/drops from joining in progress, nobody would ever join WoD in progress. Ever.

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http://puu.sh/gsG2C/8449f2011a.jpg

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Originally Posted by Set-Abominae

Or, you know, you could post this crap in the 50 other threads with identical "solutions" to a problem that doesn't need solving. The only ones crying about rng are the ones who refuse to raid for their weapons and grind 8 relics, that's a choice you made, you knew what you were in for as did i which is why non of my relics are higher than +1. Relics are a casual time sink something to keep people who dont raid continuing their sub, if relics had zero rng they wouldn't be doing that job anymore. If you think the relic here is bad go sub ffxi and repost again in 8 months when you get the first stage of the relic complete.

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I cry about RNG all the time, and I've been an endgame raider since 2.3. In all my time and clears in FCoB, I have 2 pieces of loot. 1 of which I don't even use on any of my gear sets I use.

Yukiko, the entire basis of your argument is the same person will somehow perpetually land in the same place in an algorithm or their 'dot' will continually land in the same place becoming 'trapped' in some rng nightmare pattern. That is a faulty assumption. The odds of you landing in the same place wen their are 100s of thousands of players completing content at unpredictable intervals makes where your 'dot' lands a random factor in and of itself. Thus over time still resulting in random results. That basic assumption is where you are running off the rails.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Use of the bolded word is wrong. You don't need any specific drop from content to complete content. The minimum necessary gear to complete content can be purchased or crafted elsewhere. BiS is a goal not a requirement.

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I'm a competitive person, and strive to be the best I can be. I can see these limits based on what others do. When I push as hard as I can with my inferior gear, and it's simply impossible to be close to them (ie: 370 dps in T10 as Warrior vs 400-450), yea I'm gonna be upset that I am not getting the gear they've gotten doing the same thing each week. I'm cool with some RNG of course, but not this much.

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Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver

I cry about RNG all the time, and I've been an endgame raider since 2.3. In all my time and clears in FCoB, I have 2 pieces of loot. 1 of which I don't even use on any of my gear sets I use.

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RNG has treated you nice. My static is working on T12 and to date I got exactly 0 drop and 0 need rolls either, it was always for some other class or some other members secondary.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

RNG has treated you nice. My static is working on T12 and to date I got exactly 0 drop and 0 need rolls either, it was always for some other class or some other members secondary.

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I've seen nothing but melee in coil, can gear up a drg and our nin is almost fully geared from coil. Everyone else has gotten 6+ items from coil. While me and the poor blm have 2 items from coil.

If machinist has separate gear the loot tables will be terrible

I'm working on my second Zenith now. Started doing FATEs on Sunday to get Atmas. Still haven't gotten one. Three days and zero so far.

That and it took me 267 Boarskin maps to get the Tonberry minion. So yes, RNG sucks.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Sorry, but just like a computer/program/software/alogrithm can not "tell or deem who is worthy", the RNG is not a substitute for fairness.

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The way I view it. The way the relic and other RNG elements in this game work to eliminate "Discrimination". No one stop you from solo Q'ing into any Zodiac Df. No one can stop you from getting the zodaic items. No one can stop you from light farming. The RNG in the relic quest is the great Equaizer, no one can stop other then yourself. This beats Raid groups,PF group FCs and many other things in this game. Most player controlled things in this game practice some form of Discrimination. The RNG in the Relic can't discrimate, so Its true fairness. In other words its Consistent. I dont know of any other way you could make this quest work. Other then a skill base quest...which would lead players to discriminate each other.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

The RNG in the relic quest is the great Equaizer, no one can stop other then yourself. This beats Raid groups,PF group FCs and many other things in this game. Most player controlled things in this game practice some form of Discrimination. The RNG in the Relic can't discrimate, so Its true fairness. In other words its Consistent. I dont know of any other way you could make this quest work. Other then a skill base quest...which would lead players to discriminate each other.

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RNG is not an equalizer. Someone can either do it 20+ times and someone else does it once. Sometime has to work hard for all of it and then there's someone who doesn't. The difficulty of the relic is the great equalizer. It being of such low level content means that everyone can do it no matter the skill level.

The other things you mentioned? Raid groups, PF group, FCs, they are all player controlled things that have base standards. You yourself as a player are the only one who can decide if you don't qualify for it. If they want someone with experience for a farm run...if you don't have the experience, that's your fault. Raid groups? They ask for clears or certain percentages...don't have it? Not their fault. They did their work and time for it. You don't need to assemble 8 other people before you decide to have a learning party for relevant content. Look up a PF and join in. That's you and only you preventing yourself from doing that.

And FCs? Rarely do Free companies ever discriminate and if they do, it's because they want a friends only sort of deal. At that point, that's RNG of not meeting someone at the right time.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

The RNG in the relic quest is the great Equaizer, no one can stop other then yourself. This beats Raid groups,PF group FCs and many other things in this game. Most player controlled things in this game practice some form of Discrimination. The RNG in the Relic can't discrimate, so Its true fairness. In other words its Consistent. I dont know of any other way you could make this quest work. Other then a skill base quest...which would lead players to discriminate each other.

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"Diamond Dust" is true fairness - contribute to 5 wins you get rewarded. how does that discriminate? how is that less consistent?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

"Diamond Dust" is true fairness - contribute to 5 wins you get rewarded. how does that discriminate? how is that less consistent?

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Because according to Fran Seara, even joining a winning Shiva EX group is a privilege and involving some discrimination. Though to her, seeing "Farm group - Please have cleared" is a discrimination that someone can't necessarily overcome.

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Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver

I'm a competitive person, and strive to be the best I can be. I can see these limits based on what others do. When I push as hard as I can with my inferior gear, and it's simply impossible to be close to them (ie: 370 dps in T10 as Warrior vs 400-450), yea I'm gonna be upset that I am not getting the gear they've gotten doing the same thing each week. I'm cool with some RNG of course, but not this much.

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So you are crying about a number that you should not be able to see or know about even though you are still completing objectives.

Your equipment needs for FCoB are supplied by Soldiery, Poetics and Crafted gear.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

"Diamond Dust" is true fairness - contribute to 5 wins you get rewarded. how does that discriminate? how is that less consistent?

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And I got 30 of them and still no weapon. PRICELESS
But,its Fair. me no cry.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

And I got 30 of them and still no weapon. PRICELESS
But,its Fair. me no cry.

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that's not a problem with the Diamond Dust system is it? that's your RNG being inconsistent and discriminating, how is that MORE fair?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

that's not a problem with the Diamond Dust system is it? that's your RNG being inconsistent and discriminating, how is that MORE fair?

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We kinda addressed this argument in previous pages, but Fran keeps going in circles. I wouldn't waste your breath (words/typing/whatever) at this point.

Its fair,consistent and non-discrimating because the Odds are always the same. Just like the old atams 2% was consisent because everyone had the same odds. Unlike most raid PF or FCs that set their own rules and openly discrimates "Just like normal human beings. Nothing new here" This is why I feel, the relic quest was taken out of players hands. If you remeber the old days of Titan Hm. No would join your group or help you clear it. Why? they didn't care if you ever fisnish your relic and it was in their best interest to see you fail (run sellers). This how must of the player base acts and I'm glad the relic quest has RNG. Without it players "like" Me wouldnt have stand or have a chance to earn anything good or have anything nice happen to them. IMO

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Speak for yourself. I played ffxi for 9 years. I've been on the crap luck side plenty of times. I've also been on the 1/1 train too. It's almost like of you do enough rng activities....it will balance out over time...almost like a statistical bell curve.

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Couldn't agree more, and I'm one of those people who took nearly 100 runs to get a drop (heck, I've run Brayflox HM and Lost City dozens of times and I STILL don't have the full Hussar's set). I'm fine with that because I've gotten other drops on my very first try or after just a few runs. Like you said, it all balances out. It took me probably 40 runs of Shiva to get the bow; I got the card after about four runs.

If you're getting frustrated with something, just stop and take a break for a while. Go do something else instead. Just running one thing over and over and over again in a row is a guaranteed way to make yourself angry and frustrated.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Its fair,consistent and non-discrimating because the Odds are always the same. Just like the old atams 2% was consisent because everyone had the same odds. Unlike most raid PF or FCs that set their own rules and openly discrimates "Just like normal human beings.

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if every FATE dropped an Atma shard that's a 12th of an Atma for everyone with a Zenith weapon equipped.
if every dungeon dropped a shard that's a quarter of the dungeon drop for Zodiac for everyone with the quests open.

how would those be worse and less fair?

how do you make a PF/FC that would take those out of people's hands?