[dev1026] Changes to Claiming and Engaging Enemies

SE pushing our buttons to quit game. Then they can focus on some else.

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Originally Posted by Shikaree

I'll bring up something I mentioned from the challenging content topic that I made, about world bosses and server benefits if killed. A claim system like that I would like to see if SE even decided to do something like this.

If you can imagine something Yiazmat level (so you can't kill it that fast!), and present the server a challenge to defeat it, well we'd need more than one group at a time to be able to work down on something with such a massive health pool. In cases like this it helps to bring the community together.

For anything otherwise, I'll leave my comments off the table. Too early to say what this will ultimately do.

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This could be done in a special instanced, like Guildwars 2 does. Theres no need to ruin everything else.

They could not make it like FFXI? if i attack 50mobs i can get EXP for all but if someone attack any of my mob it would become there if they build enough hate? I like that better then someone can attack a NM then build enough hate and run with it then i lose the NM thanks to this battle system.

I want someone to help me attack a mob because i'm dying and what not? make it so i can do "Call for help"

oh and i love this "If a claimed enemy returns to its territory."

Oh look someone killing a HNM get the HNM build enough hate run with it "HNM return to it's territory" Friend stay behind attack HNM now it's our muahahahahhaha f*ck you noobs it's ours now.

Great Job SE just make it like FFXI that better then this junk

I think this could work well if it comes with a /blockaid type command. Not being able to toggle this mechanic on/off would really kinda suck..

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Originally Posted by Exni

I think this could work well if it comes with a /blockaid type command. Not being able to toggle this mechanic on/off would really kinda suck..

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it seem like there no /blockaid but then again for NM/HNM there is a /blockaid no one can cure from outside the party. So maybe it only works for mobs outside in the open.

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Concerned how this will effect EXP more than anything

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guys it says that WHO ever clams it 1st gets the exp and drops

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Players will be able to attack any enemy*. However, only the player (or party that the player is in) that initiates the first attack on the enemy will earn the rewards.

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oh yeh not to mention pulling NMs from territory so they go unclaimed XD

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Originally Posted by viion

oh yeh not to mention pulling NMs from territory so they go unclaimed XD

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What if the mob stays under claimed conditions until it reaches it's spawn area, then goes unclaimed? That would mean if someone on the outside pulls hate away from the initial party and tries to run it off, the mob stays claimed until it returns, in the mean time the initial party can either stay put and continue attacking once the mob paths back, or send a few people after it to reestablish hate.

As far as Exp goes, If you get first hit it's yours, regardless of hitting 1 mob or 20.

I fully support this change!

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Players will be able to attack any enemy*. However, only the player (or party that the player is in) that initiates the first attack on the enemy will earn the rewards.

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Are we sure the attacker even generates hate to pull the mob? If so, then I expect to see the NM griefing parties like you guys describe.

Do you get exp based on the dmg you do though? If I attack and Random Dude attacks after and one shots it, do I get the full exp? If I do, then that is straight up powerleveling. I don't see any middle ground.

I think the biggest advange will be that you can help others or get help (but yeah how does that impact SP/ PL considerations). Also what if you don't want help? Anyone can roll up and hit your mob? Also what if their intention is to get emnity and then pull it away from you?

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

What if the mob stays under claimed conditions until it reaches it's spawn area, then goes unclaimed? That would mean if someone on the outside pulls hate away from the initial party and tries to run it off, the mob stays claimed until it returns, in the mean time the initial party can either stay put and continue attacking once the mob paths back, or send a few people after it to reestablish hate.

As far as Exp goes, If you get first hit it's yours, regardless of hitting 1 mob or 20.

I fully support this change!

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Dont get you... I am a tank, with 7 other guys, I out-hate your PT and am now tanking the NM. Me and 1 Healer run the mob out of territory range (which is not big) while a Healer keeps me a live (probably wont need to be cured), the other 6 of my PT Wait and spam.

When a mob resets even if you attack it during its way back it will ignore complete until returned.

Why are they wasting time with this?
- NMs pop repop every few min, so there's no need to fight over them.
- Ranking up isn't a chore / huge grind
- This in no way fixes the issues people fear from xi where mobs spawned already claimed by jp botters

How about you (devs) spend your time adding improvements to the game and filling in the holes rather than making up issues to solve... or at the very least you could do something about the bots already infesting the game

I don't understand why claim has to be tied to party?

Let's say we're going a leve or behest ok? 4 man party.

Player 1 engages a group of Yarzons, causing their names to turn red. Player 3 assists him by sleeping the adds.

Player 2 engages a group of Aldgoats, causing their names to turn red. Player 4 assists him.

So basically, every member of a party has their own claim, which is shared by the party. Thus, the party can claim multiple monsters/groups of monsters, but each member of that party is limited to claim of 1 mob or group of mobs. It worked similarly to this in FFXI except it was really convoluted, because they made different claiming systems for party and for alliance, and the way claim was held was really inconsistent.

For initial claim, SE had implemented a system where a party had to perform 2 actions on NMs for their party to receive claim of it. Which did little to deter botters, because the botting programs they used coordinated all members of the LS to target a specific window based on the time of death of the NM, and each member's automated claiming action was staggered by milliseconds to avoid conflicting with the "lockout" period in which a mob was unclaimable within the first seconds of it spawning, causing players attempting to claim it to have their action interrupted. Or at least, that was my understanding of how the latest wave of bots in FFXI had operated over the last couple years.

I'm no genius programmer, but allowing a frenzied free for all system seems like the WORST solution. All strategy for avoiding TP feed to a mob, positioning of mages and ranged attacks, directional/conal attacks being absorbed by tanks is OUT THE FRIGGIN window. This is MPK city.

And it's MPK that is completely within the ToS. If any mob is attackable, then people can send in small groups of players to disrupt enmity, feed large amounts of TP to a mob with damaging AoE abilities, or change its direction to encourage it to use conal attacks on mages and people recovering from weakness. This is a complete disaster.

I'm not sure I like this at all:

If exp is based only on claiming, then this claiming system will be nothing more than an easily exploitable powerleveling tool.
However, if exp is based on damage to the mob, then the claiming system can be used to grief other players by high levels who go around killing mobs that others are engaged in fighting.

a /blockaid addition might fix this issue though.... Personally, I would rather they made this new claiming system an opt-in feature by creating a FFXI-like /HELP option, except the original claiming PT/Player can still get exp and items.

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Originally Posted by Blue79

Why are they wasting time with this?
- NMs pop repop every few min, so there's no need to fight over them.

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People will, and not all NM#s respawn every few mins, only the low rank, should we be subjected to everyfew min just to match a system that probably wont even stop people from griefing?

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

I don't understand why claim has to be tied to party?

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You can make a pt/player claim multiple mobs without having it open for all. Open for all is just the cheap solution, come on this is SE they are not very good programmers so they picked the easy solution. XI also let you claim multiple mobs but did have a limit, not sure what the limit was though, like 5 maybe? But typically people claimed 2-3, mainly 2 in pts when you kill one and then you get another pulled / slept all ready that was also claimed. But sometimes it linked so you slept link and all those were claimed. It only went unclaimed if everyone died or enmity dropped.

Oh hey look, those crowd-control abilities I learned are actually useful, and the game world is all of a sudden more interesting and perilous.

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Originally Posted by viion

People will, and not all NM#s respawn every few mins, only the low rank, should we be subjected to everyfew min just to match a system that probably wont even stop people from griefing?



You can make a pt/player claim multiple mobs without having it open for all. Open for all is just the cheap solution, come on this is SE they are not very good programmers so they picked the easy solution. XI also let you claim multiple mobs but did have a limit, not sure what the limit was though, like 5 maybe? But typically people claimed 2-3, mainly 2 in pts when you kill one and then you get another pulled / slept all ready that was also claimed. But sometimes it linked so you slept link and all those were claimed. It only went unclaimed if everyone died or enmity dropped.

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FFXI had no limit how you think people did SMN burn and got 11-30 less then 10min. FFXI had a better you can attack multiple mobs but you only get claimed for 1 and if you kill them all you get all the EXP. i think that better then allowing other to attack the same mob you got claimed.

So ya SE is lazy i don't understand why there doing this there pissing us all.

poor excuse for an alliance battle system is poor

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

FFXI had no limit how you think people did SMN burn and got 11-30 less then 10min. FFXI had a better you can attack multiple mobs but you only get claimed for 1 and if you kill them all you get all the EXP. i think that better then allowing other to attack the same mob you got claimed.

So ya SE is lazy i don't understand why there doing this there pissing us all.

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Ah yeh forgot about them, guess it seemed like a limit cuse eventually you lose enmity and thats when it goes unclaimed agian. Dont know why SE is doing this, i just feel its so bad, its too exploitable and makes everything too easy and redundant.

Oh and inb4 death by mob TP spam MPK ness

FFXI let you claim 1 mob per person in your party. However, mobs did not have to die while claimed for you to get the exp from them, you were only required to land the killing blow.

This change is the dumbest decision SE has made since they decided to release FFXIV prematurely. Don't get me wrong, many of their recent decisions sound great (materia, hq revamps, link and chain bonuses, removal of physical level, I can go on and on) but this... Why? Like Viion said, this is the cheap solution to us not being able to claim more than 1 mob at a time. Sure it solves that problem, but with it comes many other problems, arguably worse than the ones they are trying to solve.

Edit: They actually never even mentioned how this change will let us claim more than just 1 mob. They gave us no information at all in regards to how many enemies we can have engaged at one time. The act of making all mobs attackable by all players likely has absolutely nothing to do with holding claim on multiple mobs. With this system we still hold "claim" on mobs, but supposedly we can now claim more than 1? That's proof that this was possible with the current system if you ask me.

The CONs:

• Challenging non-instanced content is now a thing of the past. I seriously doubt SE can create content with dynamic scaling. They're having a hard time just giving us basic linkshell administration functions for example..

• This opens the door to extreme power leveling exploits, similar to WoW's "1-70 in under 48 hours" nonsense.

• Player griefing is much easier to accomplish with this system. I mean let's be real here, not everyone plays nice. There will be player griefing in every MMO, this just compounds the problem. SE's solution to this, of course, is making all worthwhile content instanced (see first bullet point).

The PROs:

• Players can now help each other out when needed.

• Linkshells are not limited to bringing only 8 people for open world content. (Keep in mind that this completely destroys balancing for this content)

Why couldn't they have just given us a claim system similar to FFXI's where each additional person in our party lets us hold claim on one additional mob? Why couldn't they just give us a "Call for help" button, instead of revamping the entire system and still having people ask for a /blockaid function? Their reasons for this change, the ones that they have mentioned, could have been solved by other means.

I hope you know what you are doing SE.

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Originally Posted by Kaida

Oh and inb4 death by mob TP spam MPK ness

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You're too late, it's already been gone over. :)

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

You're too late, it's already been gone over. :)

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Damn it! Not got time to read the whole thing!

Wait power leveling bet no one has covered this problem yet!

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

FFXI let you claim 1 mob per person in your party. However, mobs did not have to die while claimed for you to get the exp from them, you were only required to land the killing blow.

This change is the dumbest decision SE has made since they decided to release FFXIV prematurely. Don't get me wrong, many of their recent decisions sound great (materia, hq revamps, link and chain bonuses, removal of physical level, I can go on and on) but this... Why? Like Viion said, this is the cheap solution to us not being able to claim more than 1 mob at a time. Sure it solves that problem, but with it comes many other problems, arguably worse than the ones they are trying to solve.

The CONs:

• Challenging non-instanced content is now a thing of the past. I seriously doubt SE can create content with dynamic scaling. They're having a hard time just giving us basic linkshell administration functions for example..

• This opens the door to extreme power leveling exploits, similar to WoW's "1-70 in under 48 hours" nonsense.

• Player griefing is much easier to accomplish with this system. I mean let's be real here, not everyone plays nice. There will be player griefing in every MMO, this just compounds the problem. SE's solution to this, of course, is making all worthwhile content instanced (see first bullet point).

The PROs:

• Players can now help each other out when needed.

• Linkshells are not limited to bringing only 8 people for open world content. (Keep in mind that this completely destroys balancing for this content)

Why couldn't they have just given us a claim system similar to FFXI's where each additional person in our party lets us hold claim on one additional mob? Why couldn't they just give us a "Call for help" button, instead of revamping the entire system and still having people ask for a /blockaid function? Their reasons for this change, the ones that they have mentioned, could have been solved by other means.

I hope you know what you are doing SE.

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Fast leveling is the direction SE has been moving for awhile. Let's use XI examples:


ToA era:
Caedarva Mire - 15-25k/hr~ for running circles in the Mire.
Addition of Nyzul Isle warp - 20-35k/hr~ for running around in an area the size of your kitchen killing birds

Level sync era:
SMNburn - 4-6 idiots waiting around for a high level player to drag in 90-120 monsters, then spamming AoE, hateless abilities on them for 7-10 minutes for exp gains of 40k+ exp.
West Ronfaure[S] - 6 DD piercing damage players with a PL getting 30-45k/hr

And then more than doubling base XP of all mobs, Abyssea, Grounds of Valor.

Assuming a brand spanking new level 1 character with question mark over their head had high level/duo box help farming all Genkai items, unlocking several outposts/teleport crystals and obtaining Abyssea entrance with a few choice confluxes, it's entirely possible for a dedicated player to go 1-90 in 24 hours.

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Originally Posted by Kaida

Damn it! Not got time to read the whole thing!

Wait power leveling bet no one has covered this problem yet!

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Come on Kaida, you can come up with more original QQ than that! :D

Ok how about this: inb4 everyone realizes this opens up a Pandora's box of item duping similar to FFXI's salvage glitch. And no one will care because all items suck anyway! :D

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Originally Posted by Captaindownsyndrome

guys it says that WHO ever clams it 1st gets the exp and drops

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I mean how will they keep it from being exploited. Can a R50 just come and oneshot something I claim and I get EXP for no effort?

Looks too soon to judge whether its bad or not.
I'll wait for more info before the QQ starts lol.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

Looks too soon to judge whether its bad or not.
I'll wait for more info before the QQ starts lol.

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I agree but based on the details they have provided it sure seems like more of a downgrade than a positive. As mentioned earlier, fixing the ls functions would have been a better focus of time (but maybe they have that in 1.19 as well :))

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

You know the game doesn't allow you to heal outside of the PT when they are fighting roaming NMs, right?

Claiming multiple mobs = good
Allowing outsides to join in = Why? Your claim your fight. Maybe we don't want help. If we wipe then that's our problem.

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Exactly this

Quitting the game after this until they decide to take the stick out their *** and get rid of it, the current system is better then this crap.

/blockaid Please!!!!!! I Like the system, but for NMs and such you should be able to turn on blockaid!!

Personally i'm not a fan of this system. It won't be an issue for basic content and enemies, but for high level monsters, farming, and NM's I can imagine this being abused unless it's somehow balanced in a way that's not described.

That or a lot of content will be instanced for NM's

Not sure this will effect me personaly that much at all however i feel wrong jumping into a fight to aid someone then probley get shouted/told off for try to help out.
Even though i tend to try heal some people at times, but i know i taking a risk the monster agro kills me if doing that.

I think this system will not work out great or be misused in some way , i hope im wrong though.

As there is potential for abuse, it would be nice to get some clarification from SE on what will be in place to mitigate it.

Since you can't cure people fighting an NM from outside the party, for example, it may also be impossible to "assist" a party fighting an NM as well.

As far as powerleveling, there ought to be sp/xp penalties in place when someone much higher in level than you attacks the same mob you're fighting, so I don't think you'll be able to just have some rank 50 archer murder everything for a low level char for huge gains. But if that's the case, it would be nice to have some type of /blockaid lock-out if you don't want outside interference from someone trying to impede your grinding.

stuff like this is something they should take video of and post what its like before/after instead of the useless AA video they posted before lol.

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Originally Posted by Shikaree

I'll bring up something I mentioned from the challenging content topic that I made, about world bosses and server benefits if killed. A claim system like that I would like to see if SE even decided to do something like this.

If you can imagine something Yiazmat level (so you can't kill it that fast!), and present the server a challenge to defeat it, well we'd need more than one group at a time to be able to work down on something with such a massive health pool. In cases like this it helps to bring the community together.

For anything otherwise, I'll leave my comments off the table. Too early to say what this will ultimately do.

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I like your point but as is the server couldn't handle the load if we were given server wide events. It's unfortunate too because server wide events are a lot of fun.

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Originally Posted by Nanaho

Quitting the game after this until they decide to take the stick out their *** and get rid of it, the current system is better then this crap.

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I liked your post not because I agree with you, think of it more like a vote for you to quit.

I have a serious question, now that anything and everything can be zerged down by 100 people. Will SE finally be removing the restriction of not allowing us to invite players when we're engaged in a battle? I mean, I don't understand why we would still remain restricted since we can always have the people outside of the main party bashing on the target anyways. What would the point be of blocking us after this change?

Thats actually a pretty darn good question keft.