Now that it is "old content", could we get a nerf on Titan EX? (lag woes)

For the record, a few days just before Patch 2.2 hits we were rushing one of our raid members though some of the side contents such as Primal EX that he was procrastinating to clear (despite being done with T5 and nothing else to do he's still lazy).

Titan EX was one of them. He knew nuts about the fight so we had to carry him. I was on vacation so I was using the free internet from the hotel, which isn't gaming quality. The lag was bad. Damage taken are updated like 1-2 seconds later. Like you see that the stomping animation from Titan was over but you saw the damage applied to you later.

But nope, I did not die, nor fall down the platform.

I know that feel, i also had a lot of problems with Titan (i´m from Chile) , those landslides who hit you even if you are a few metters away from the animation, those weight of the land that you need the reflexes of a shaolin monk to dodge em, but after all, me and three frieds (me as a bard, a BM and a scholar) managed to beat him.

Was the most satisfactory boss kill i´ve ever had.

Also Infrit-ex was just a joke compared with Titan

Lag on your end should be rectified as much as possible but never forget, Server lag for DPS is bad but for a healer it means they can ran before the cast ends and it still goes off, A LA Weight of the Land.

So Server lag isn't necessarily bad because it helps healers and I hope you get enough practice. I know it's sometimes discouraging because people will quit early and you don't get to practice! Don't fret. You will find that super nice group that will not only let you practice but break down and teach you the fight! ^^

There are good people that play FFXIV after all. ^^

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Originally Posted by PArcher

It's really hard to nerf this fight the way you want. Everything comes at set tumes;

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Easiest thing in the world to nerf. You just add 200 msec or more to the time when landslide or plumes are visible to the time when they go off.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Easiest thing in the world to nerf. You just add 200 msec or more to the time when landslide or plumes are visible to the time when they go off.

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Was about to suggest exactly that. Just display those telegraphs earier, so that people with lag actually have time to move out.

I'm suffering from this as well, and can't do Titan because of this. Strangely, I'm not noticing problems with other fights, Levi Ex is fine for me, for example. Titan seems to introduce more lag. I event have issues with normal or hard sometimes dispite having done that many many times. I'll see a landslide, move well away, fire a couple of arrows or half-cast something, and then suddenly get swiped.

Titan EX is a ping check.

I know every second of that fight by memory, can move also half second before things happen, but I still can be slided out.

I also add more to the hell that duty is. It also may happen during the fight I dodge all and everything, but the only time of all fight the ping hates me, I am just plainly screwed.

And no, know the duty by memory don't helps. I can move before, but move where? Slides aren't always on same place, you need to see the safe spot to go into it. Heck, it also happened I knew in that exact time will comes a slide, but see Titan do not move do it, it means I am rolling the screwed/notscrewed dice, because I know when I will see that on my screen, all games are already gone and done.

A basic rule of game design is that if the developer gives the player a signal, and the player reacts to said signal while signal is on screen, then the player should be rewarded. Or at the very least not punished.

Yet, in Titan, SE breaks this rule again and again. We see the plume warnings and the landslide warnings. We react by moving out of the area, yet we are punished as if we didn't move in time. We've seen this time and time again with Titan.

This is not good game design. It doesn't matter if the pattern is the same every time, it's still bad design. We players should not be accepting this, and yet, we tolerate it.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

While connection lag is one source of problems for people, there's one thing people should keep in mind if they play on TV (HD or UHD)... Input lag.
I was looking at a nice UHD TV the other day... And was considering buying it... Until I learned that the input lag on it was as high as 120ms.
Input lag in this case being the time between the TV receives a frame and the TV actually displays the frame.

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Not just that, don't forget the built-in latency in a PC as well. You can remove that entirely by editing in the registry, for me that made the difference. Oh, and I play on TV that is hooked up to my PC.
Going hardwired as opposed to wireless will make life a lot easier too. You could even get a CAT6 cable instead of a CAT5, also a little bit faster.

Not everything is just ISP or server side. Check your own hardware and setup first.

I don't get any lag and perfectly dodge everything this guy sends at me. Lag is a fairly common excuse used by NA gamers to justify the fact that they suck which is why people who have ACTUAL lag would be accused of making excuses. Have you tried WTFast? I heard it works wonders even for international players.

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Originally Posted by Snootles

Going hardwired as opposed to wireless will make life a lot easier too. You could even get a CAT6 cable instead of a CAT5, also a little bit faster.

Not everything is just ISP or server side. Check your own hardware and setup first.

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This is a good recommendation. I was having huge problems with Titan EX initially. My lag problems cleared up when I reworked my home network.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Titan EX is a ping check.

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It is, indeed. I used to get angry at fights like this because of where I'm playing from (lol china) but every since I got a vpn (local chinese company and afaik they just get me past the great firewall of china instead of taking me all the way across ocean), I've been able to pass it with 300 ping so the check isn't about the base latency. The check is about how many time outs you have.

I'm playing with 300 ping and I'm about to move countries soon (still in Asia) so naturally I'm averse to any kind of latency check of any kind (wish this kind of thing just didn't exist but that's just a utopian dream). But really, even if SE adjusted the game to be 600 ping friendly, people with intense amounts of *s will just keep finding trouble in trials. The question becomes who exactly is giving the player the time outs? Their ISP or SE's infamous level 3 node? Unless there's hard evidence that the prevalent culprit is on SE's end it's not on SE to make adjustments that will affect the experience of every player unless the issue is affecting the majority of the player base and SE risk losing a ton of sub money.

Despite the incredible volume of players that have complained about the unique and poor design of this fight when it comes to any latency those with good pings will continue to tell those with bad pings that it is all their fault. It is a fascinating internet phenomenon that whenever one person is not having an issue with something it MUST mean that no one else can be and if they claim they are they are either lying or need to git gud. This fight is not fun period. It works for a small portion of the community where is even ones like Levi with its one shot mechanics are enjoyable if challenging to the majority. Do not dismay though folks, continue to bring it up despite the resistance of those who insist that anyone that can't do what they can do has to be terribad. There is a possibility that SE might listen. I mean they increased the drop rate so that more people could explore their My Little Pony fetish.

Here's the thing.... it's not the players who have this on farm ruining it for the those with latency issues. It's the vast number of players who use the old "Titan lag" crutch to excuse poor play. Anyone's who done this fight enough times knows when it's being thrown out as a BS excuse. You just get a feel for it. For example... the same player that is struggling with bomb formations is generally the same person eating LS's and plumes. Yet it's always lag blame followed sometimes by the oft hilarious "mystery DC".

I'm truly sorry for those with latency issues. I also believe that the problem is not as far-reaching as many make it out to be. It's a convenient crutch and unfortunately, those that truly have it are being sullied by the MANY others who don't have it but insist on it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Here's the thing.... it's not the players who have this on farm ruining it for the those with latency issues. It's the vast number of players who use the old "Titan lag" crutch to excuse poor play...

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If that were true we would hear a lot more identical complaints about all the end game twitch fights. You are saying that people are magically 'good' when doing Levi X and are able to handle those mechanics despite twitch times yet suddenly turn 'bad' in Titan X? People complain constantly about this one fight and have since the beginning because it is poorly designed for a game with notoriously bad connections for a lot of people. As I stated in my post above, people who are not experiencing this will be quick to dismiss or make up reasons of their own for why it is happening but it just simply cannot be the original reason mentioned. My FC can dance circles around all the other extremes and we have members from Australia yet Titan X is notoriously a pain.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

I'm truly sorry for those with latency issues. I also believe that the problem is not as far-reaching as many make it out to be. It's a convenient crutch and unfortunately, those that truly have it are being sullied by the MANY others who don't have it but insist on it anyway.

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Yes, I've got to the point where I wanted to record a video of what was going on on my screen to prove my statements (I always make it a principle to not lie, call me Lincoln :rolleyes:), because I just couldn't take the badmouthing anymore. The only reason I haven't done it is that I know keeping ANY other program running on my PC while I do this would only make the lag worse. Which is also why I won't use skype or teamspeak during it (not like I have been running this with people I voice-chat with. While my written English is okay, my understanding on spoken English is still poor. I'm a self-taught x_X).

Also, if it can be of any indication regarding my own reflexes, I won Titan HM on 1st try, in a DF party, without deaths. I don't know what it is in Titan EX that makes it more laggy than HM (or maybe the AoEs are just slower to cast in HM?), but I dare to think I have been doing my damned best to dodge the things.

Anyways, after two extensive days of attempts I have finally managed to get through it at least once, though dead on phase 4 (due to bombs, I reckon). I still think the battle should be addressed, and I am genuinely sorry if I have hurt the feelings of those who enjoy the fight as it is. I seriously thought there were more in my situation. In the end, I think I am just puzzled as of how this game has some content that is out of reach within its own minimum requirements for hardware or connection (and before you point fingers, no, my case is better than average for both hardware and connection as far as you can get in my country). To make content that demands higher requirements is not too far-fetched from Pay to Win in the end.

Again, I apologize to those who were offended by the suggestion and I hope you'll still have a good day even knowing someone out there has ideas you disapprove. I know I will.

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Originally Posted by Shadex

If that were true we would hear a lot more identical complaints about all the end game twitch fights. You are saying that people are magically 'good' when doing Levi X and are able to handle those mechanics despite twitch times yet suddenly turn 'bad' in Titan X?

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But there really isn't a "end game twitch fight" quite as unforgiving as Titan Ex, now is there? Please don't compare Levi EX to it.... they're not even in the same ballpark. I can skirt left then right, break my ankles and still dodge a dive. LS's and plumes require you to be a bit more on your toes.

Again... I'm not railing on those that truly have latency issues. Most notably, those far away from data centers. I'm just frustrated with the many who are blaming lag when it's obvious they don't have the fight down 100 percent. Which you have to in order to clear consistently. I'll say it one more time. Anybody who has run this fight tons of times just knows when a player is playing the lag card to excuse poor play. You can see it in how they're managing the rest of the fight outside of LS's and plumes. And I've seen this correlation enough to roll my eyes whenever I see "lag" typed out in the message box.

I say no thanks to this nerf.. While I've been effected by lag occasionally because of my 3mbps connection I found it fairly easy to learn the fight and dodge in anticipation even pre-echo. Now with echo you can completely skip the super bomb phase entirely. Yes, it can be difficult to get a good party for this but it's not impossible. To me the game needs a few challenges like this that make you feel really good when you finally beat it.

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Originally Posted by Shadex

Despite the incredible volume of players that have complained about the unique and poor design of this fight when it comes to any latency those with good pings will continue to tell those with bad pings that it is all their fault. It is a fascinating internet phenomenon that whenever one person is not having an issue with something it MUST mean that no one else can be and if they claim they are they are either lying or need to git gud.

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There are plenty of people who have said they can do it even with massive lag in the 300ms range. You're one size fits all generalizations fail. Is it easy to do that? No, but it's not impossible to learn the fight and still win consistently.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Now with echo you can completely skip the super bomb phase entirely.

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Funny you should mention that. Beat it the other day and was thinking something was missing. Ah yes... super bomb. Must've skipped it. And even when it did appear in the next fight, it virtually melted. Someone was actually screaming to LB it. Kinda thought that was funny with DPS as geared up as they are nowadays.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

I say no thanks to this nerf.. While I've been effected by lag occasionally because of my 3mbps connection I found it fairly easy to learn the fight and dodge in anticipation even pre-echo. Now with echo you can completely skip the super bomb phase entirely. Yes, it can be difficult to get a good party for this but it's not impossible. To me the game needs a few challenges like this that make you feel really good when you finally beat it.

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The game takes very little bandwidth; a 56k modem would be more than enough to handle the game if the ping time was low enough.

The issue is having 1 second to move a distance that takes half a second of movement time, and not knowing where you need to move to until you only have half a second left.

@OP Agreed.
There are 2-3 individuals in my FC with the same issues as you. One of them with across-the-board lvl 50's and Nexus stuffs to-boot. In other words, not "a casual".

Add 0.05 seconds to the time between when all the AOEs show and when they hit and watch Titan EX completion rates soar. Reduce reward drop rates accordingly to account for the "ease" of the altered instance.

I think that Titan EX has the tightest timing of any encounter in the game. While SE's testing no doubt attempts to balance the timing within the technical bounds of the game, I think they need to review the parameters. They're not designing for the latency that many people experience. If SE does not have a way to adjust their test environment to the extremes of their latency design window, that needs to be added.

The challenge is to accommodate high latency players without affecting the challenge for those with low ping. While more difficult, this could also be done by pinging each client at the start of the encounter and adjusting individual timing accordingly. That would put everyone on exactly the same footing.

The very fact that fight so fixed and requires guesswork and knowledge beforhand before even attempitng to finish it imho is the worst possible situation in mmorpg's in general. My personal gripe is those heavily scripted moments. There are many times where i see wheight of land plumes half second long( especialy at heart phase and right after it), its just one pulse of it and bam im hit, i cant even begin to outrun or even if im moving beforehand im hit. Its just plain ridiculously stupid, and guessing is with luck too, i asure you that window of knowing when its gona be cast can vary +/- 1sec. Landslides are at the point where i must be on move before at time of casting, othervise my relyance on luck of not knowing whether ill be hit or not even when im long out of landslide is not acceptable.

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

The very fact that fight so fixed and requires guesswork and knowledge beforhand before even attempitng to finish it imho is the worst possible situation in mmorpg's in general.

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Nothing about this fight is guesswork. If you think it's guesswork then it could explain any problems you have. It's a specific pattern that always repeats the same way unless you push a phase.

I personally prefer React vs memories.

This is a memories fight. Without enough time to react.
My FC active members are mostly doing Shiva EX. However only 1 has titan EX done because the content isn't important any longer and lag issue with prevent players from finishing it.

Just... please... leave Titan EX alone. The DPS check that is Ramuh EX is soon to go the way of Ifrit. Shiva is the new Levi in terms of coasting to victory after victory. Mog just isn't fun.

Titan is the only primal that remains somewhat fresh and challenging.

you should be able to easily beat the fight even if you fall off unless your DPS are a bunch of wet noodles.

Playing from germany and i can dodge everything just fine.

Learn how to play and stop crying.

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Originally Posted by radioactive_lego

@OP Agreed.
There are 2-3 individuals in my FC with the same issues as you. One of them with across-the-board lvl 50's and Nexus stuffs to-boot. In other words, not "a casual".

Add 0.05 seconds to the time between when all the AOEs show and when they hit and watch Titan EX completion rates soar. Reduce reward drop rates accordingly to account for the "ease" of the altered instance.

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yes lets punish the players who can easily clear this fight in 4 minutes by reducing the pony drop rate

Okay, I think the point of everyone's opinions has been pretty much made. I appreciate those who showed sympathy, as much as those who gave helpful advice. I feel happy for those who have no latency issue and can have this fight proceed smoothly even from Europe. However, I do not enjoy insults and non-constructive criticize as much as I do not enjoy receiving them in Duty, so I think I will stop looking at this thread as I fear it's going to turn into a nest of venomous comebacks that I'd rather be not a part of. If people have been hurt by my suggest again I apologize as much as I did a page ago.

I hope everyone has a good day, and I hope that I will not make so many players upset at me in future content.

I travel for work. Russia, China, SEAsia.

The FFXIV network is based on "server-Live" which is something that is trade practice for FPS shooters.

Essentially, if you are broadcasting beyond the superb fiber and bleeding edge ISP networks between EU West/Korea/Japan/Taiwan and North America, It's like playing an FPS on a server with 300 ping+, it sucks.

There are things that are going to happen and the only way to adapt aside from moving closer to the servers is to 100% know the fight and start moving .25 second ahead of time.

They should have went with a "client-live" system for an MMORPG. They've alienated countless players from abroad, and that's costing Square-enix potential revenue.

Changing the servers from server-live to client-live while preventing game breaking exploitation probably cost a million or 2 and they will probably have to bring the servers down for several months for testing and development. A worthwhile investment, to have the entire world access the 2 so-called international datacenters in Japan and Montreal respectively.

The ship has already sailed on this one though. SE's loss thoough. As more new stuff comes out the dev's are becoming less considerate of the "distant" player base (Keeper of the Lake last boss for example) and its just a manner of time before they too quit because of technical issues made from flawed decisions.

The most famous game that operates on Client-Live is WoW, Phantasy Star Oniline 2. Games less famous games that operate on server-live. FFXI, Lineage 2.

The difference? the server-live games have minimal dodge mechanics, the developers know the limitations of their chosen networking system, so they design the game around that.

The Client-live games listed have some intense dodge mechanics, especially PSO2, the developers of these games know the advantages of their chosen networking system, and they design the game knowing full well they can come up with some intense situations.

FFXIV: They've chosen Server-Live, they do not take into account the disadvantages of chosen networking system, Players are alienated based on region, much like how in FPS games you will NEVER EVER choose a server with 300+ ping thats most likely located on another continent

The farthest ive been from montreal while playing has been nearly 15,000km(point to point, actual fiber laying is probably twice that distance), im up against, dodge mechanics that appear late on my screen and go off extra early. The cast bars dont even finish before the effects go off. This fine tunes me into being a superior player. I memorize encounters and mechanics based on boss hp, and order of mechanics. I have to move earlier, i have to push buttons based on "my own gcd" I'm constantly calculating every moment during an encounter. At this rate i will unlock the secrets to time-travel.

When im home im 3064km from montreal and it feels weird.

KaedrianLiang, you can edit the first post and break past the posting size limit. Just write the post out in notepad, make a post with the 10 character limit, then edit the post and paste your entire post in it. Saves your daily post limit.

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Originally Posted by sackm

yes lets punish the players who can easily clear this fight in 4 minutes by reducing the pony drop rate

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Agreed. Thanks for your cooperation and support.

At this point, I would like to see this. I don't even care that most of these people are just making excuses, I'm sick of seeing DPS flying off the edge over and over again. I've spent 8-10 hours on this fight and I'm no closer to finishing it. In fact, my last run was one of the worst. I can carry mediocre players through all but the most cutting edge of content, but I can't carry them in this fight. Despite it's name, Raise just doesn't work that way.

All good reasonings here, too bad this fight, even if you know it by memory, does not save you from any lag-dependent instagimp.

I know evil slide coming is 2s, yeeees I know it! I'm pro at this game!!! ... wait... where is the safe spot? WHERE IS THE SAFE SPOOOT? SHOW ME PLEEEASE!!! Then game finally shows it to you, but too late, man.