Why Speed Pulls?

I just avoid doing dngs with my War/Pld. Problem solved!

I speed pull and chain pull. On experts I don't feel comfortable speed pulling so instead I chain pull. My number one focus is to maintain threat. As a VIT PLD (I learned my lesson just recently) I can't handle the threat of larger pulls when you have cracked out DPS. Or maybe it is my own paranoia but regardless there is no wasted moment in the run. Once the last mob is at 10-20% I am grabbing the next pull. I want to be as fast as possible but depending on the group make up it is much faster to single target than AoE and vice versa.

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you want to place blame OP?

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I suppose that it is a really far fetched way of putting it.

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The truth of why people speed is this game doesn't have any crowd control mechanics.

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That's all there is in WoW, CCs, just go pvp and try to tell me you haven't ever gotten CCed. Yet people still rush through dungeons.

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I'm guessing some people just hate having to run outdated content for Alex maps and the Zodiak piece. That's the only reason I que as a tank, hoping for two non sucking aoe classes.

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Fun is overrated. I will say like what the "hardcore" people say to the "casual" people. Getting everything isn't required, you don't need that relic, just go run coil, why are you in a rush to get everything? Especially the relic when you could just run coil and get a better weapon?

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As a VIT PLD (I learned my lesson just recently) I can't handle the threat of larger pulls when you have cracked out DPS.

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I can, unless the DPS doesn't feel like leaving me 1 global cooldown ahead. It's just 1.5 sec, hell even 1 sec would be enough, at that point it isn't impatience it's a real problem IMO, 1 sec isn't that long.

Do what you want. No one cares.

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I just avoid doing dngs with my War/Pld. Problem solved!

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I encounter the same problem as healer and DPS, not sure what problem that would solve.

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Do what you want. No one cares.

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They Obviously do. Lol.

to op,

why not speed run, it will test your ability to tank more so than a single pack at a time.

yes I saw that you said you can do it but mostly prefer not too, that's fine but one pull at a time isn't very fun to me.


I don't ask if anyone wants to speed-run anymore, I just do it, however im not a moron, I will check my healers gear level, see what dps I have in group and judge how they handle the first pull, if its smooth then I continue as normal, if its sloppy or poor or dps is slow I adjust and pull less.

also if I see new person to duty message i'll go slower, no need to scare them off,

but all in all I will pull as much as I know is in general safe for the average group to handle and that is in my own capability. in a game with such heavy grinding most people want to get things done quickly so they can progress, not be spending an hour in a dungeon that could of taken 15mins.

I meant that speeding is a thing since there isn't any real threat not to. If you think about it, the game is practically handing out gear at this point and well people are just at that point that they know the mobs aren't a threat.

So yes they will speed.

Right now, the gear given out weighs the dungeon.

Just wait till the expansion, I bet people will drop speeding until well they catch up on gear again.

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not be spending an hour in a dungeon that could of taken 15mins.

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But just how much time are we saving here? Take Brayflox for example, do you remember when people used to ask "Half pulls or full pulls?" I don't personally consider half pulls to be speed runs, just normal, cause it's a given that any most tanks can hold 6~ mobs at a time. However, full pulls? It's so over-stretched in my opinion. How much time are we really saving? I doubt we are losing 45 mins by doing half pulls over full pulls and it's that much more enjoyable (at least for me)

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Just wait till the expansion, I bet people will drop speeding until well they catch up on gear again.

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Until it starts all over again. However, I don't really consider the game handing out gear to justify people not really asking the pug groups' opinions on how they want to take it.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

Don't, if you don't want to speed run, as a tank you don't have to. You are the one that sets the pace of the duty, if rest of party doesn't like it, they can leave. If anyone tries to pull extra packs into your pull, let them tank it. This is a game, play it the way YOU enjoy it, and don't let others dictate how you play.

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This whole "the tank decides anything" is complete bs! He's a party member like everyone else, period. If everyone in the party agrees on a speedrun and the tank refuses just 'because he can', he's a fuckin' douche. It's an mmo, it's not about doing what you like, it's being able to adapt to what the general agreement of the party is or gtfo.

Sorry for the harsh words but I'm so tired of all this 'the tank dictates' stuff. He already has the easiest job in endgame, no reason to be a diva about dungeons just because holding hate on 10+ mobs is lolhard.

Running dungeons is boring as fuck, we do it because we have to for poetics/zodiac items/whatever, not because they're fun, challenging content (well, at least after we've seen them for the first couple times). There's no reason to not get out of them asap.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

This whole "the tank decides anything" is complete bs! He's a party member like everyone else, period. If everyone in the party agrees on a speedrun and the tank refuses just 'because he can'

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Every time I enter an instance I always ask what the party wants to do. If any one is leveling, pull one or more mobs, full clear etc.. Very few does anyone say full clear. Alot just don't say anything. But out of people who do respond, the majority of answers is "you're the tank its up to you". Maybe people just don't like to make decisions, thus why they don't tank. The majority of the people though seem to want to leave it up to me.

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we do it because we have to for poetics/zodiac items/whatever, not because they're fun

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I do it for poetics, zodiac and items, but especially because I find them fun, otherwise I wouldn't even bother doing them...you know why? SE pumps out content so fast that everything you worked for will be useless next content tier patch anyway.

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There's no reason to not get out of them asap.

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There is, but you probably simply refuse to see those reasons because of reasons.

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Running dungeons is boring as fuck

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Why do you play? Showing off?

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Originally Posted by Sareal

But just how much time are we saving here?

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So little you can barely notice. Hell, I had a tank pull every single group separately in Braflox HM, and I never felt it was taking that much longer than room-wide pulls.
At the end of the day I play to have fun. If those 40 minutes I spent in a dungeon were enjoyable, who cares if I could have done it in 10, game served its purpose anyway.

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So little you can barely notice. Hell, I had a tank pull every single group separately in Braflox HM, and I never felt it was taking that much longer than room-wide pulls.

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My take on it is that it probably takes even longer because there is so many mobs taking so much space and so many AoEs you spend more time dancing than DPSing, then the healer has to pump out more heals and has no time to even DPS at all...decreasing the overall DPS. Nevertheless, no matter what is more efficient, the difference in time gained or time loss is barely noticeable. Were speaking seconds here, not dozens of minutes. I completely agree with you on every front.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Were speaking seconds here, not dozens of minutes. I completely agree with you on every front.

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I thought I saw somewhere that somebody said they could do Brayflox HM in less than 10 minutes. Have to wonder what the difference actually is. Someone should do a test. Full level synched players pull the whole first room vs one by one mob and see what the time difference actually is. I'm just starting to get into the big pulls and doing them with full ilvl110 synched parties those huge groups go down in maybe a minute give or take, which is faster than a pull by pull.

I learned the hard way as tank that just because your party is in dreadwrym, doesn't mean they can handle giant pulls despite demanding it ._.

Coil gear =/= being able to effectively speed run.

After that incident a couple of times, I from then on just ask whether or not the party wants a medium or small pulls.

Giant pulls are for friends/fc only :x.

So just ask them what the pace will be and from that place a level of performance expected from yourself and the party.

I too play dungeons for the sake of enjoying them. As a healer, I'm indifferent to the tank's pace. If they pull big, I heal, small pulls I dps. I always allocate time appropriately when it comes to dungeons, you never know when you'll get a fresh tank or lacking dps. Finishing fast is just a bonus to me.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

I do it for poetics, zodiac and items, but especially because I find them fun, otherwise I wouldn't even bother doing them...you know why? SE pumps out content so fast that everything you worked for will be useless next content tier patch anyway.

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These content tier patches come out every 6 months and even then the former tier is still relevant for at least another month or two, don't act like it will be useless shortly after release. If running dungeons is fun for you, that's cool and your personal opinion and i respect that. But let me remind you what your original complaint was: people want to speedrun to get the stuff done quickly. Might this be the case because, you know, there are lots of other people like me that don't enjoy running the same, unchallenging 'tank and spank content' that doesn't drop useful (outside of desynth) stuff all over again, just to i.e. cap poetics? Hmm yeah, if you encounter a ton of ppl insisting on speedruns, this might be the reason...

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Why do you play? Showing off?

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To play content that isn't just killing 100 trash mobs. It's cool the first few times because it is well designed, i love how much love SE puts into the details and I like the atmosphere and music of some of the instances. But gameplay wise it's just faceroll through it without thinking (which it has to be in order to be DFable without frustrating wipefests) and thus, i do not find it fun. That's just it.

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Might this be the case because, you know, there are lots of other people like me that don't enjoy running the same, unchallenging 'tank and spank content' that doesn't drop useful (outside of desynth) stuff all over again, just to i.e. cap poetics?

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I'm sorry that you feel like you have to do things you don't enjoy in a videogame.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I'm sorry that you feel like you have to do things you don't enjoy in a videogame.

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You don't have to feel sorry about anything, that's what I expect when I decide to play an rpg or an mmo more specifically. Grinding the same stuff repeatedly over and over in order to achieve something is just in the nature of the genre. Of course I also expect
other ppl that have to do the same boring grinds to do it as fast and effecient as possible, and that's exactly the point of this thread: alot of ppl (includung you it seems, correct me if I'm wrong) apperently don't expect that...

When I get in a dungeon I expect to be paired with people who like that dungeon, just like I did, or I wouldn't have queued for it. It didn't seem such an odd thought until I came to the forums and read that people keep doing stuff they don't enjoy over and over.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

When I get in a dungeon I expect to be paired with people who like that dungeon, just like I did, or I wouldn't have queued for it. It didn't seem such an odd thought until I came to the forums and read that people keep doing stuff they don't enjoy over and over.

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There are several dungeons I would never run for enjoyment purposes but do so out of necessity for Relic requirements, Roulette bonus, etc... These dungeons are not fun for me but the reward for completion is.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

When I get in a dungeon I expect to be paired with people who like that dungeon, just like I did, or I wouldn't have queued for it. It didn't seem such an odd thought until I came to the forums and read that people keep doing stuff they don't enjoy over and over.

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Come on man, you know better. Players don't queue for specific dungeons 90% of the time (unless they need to because of atma books/zodiac drops/whatever), they just get thrown into stuff by duty roulette. I'm not pretending there aren't more players like you that queue for specific dungeons just becuase they enjoy them, I'm just saying their number is so small that you cannot expect to have ppl queuing for that reason in your duty.

Even on the first day of new content, people will base their decisions on the composition of the group whether to pull everything and their moms in 1 big ball. If you do a mass pull with 2 melees + a SCH, good luck to you; even a WHM's holy spam isn't going to save you, especially in the newer instances with mobs that have a much higher HP pool. However, if you have 2 BLM's, well... I think you get the point.

More to the point of why people speed run in general: People have other things to do either in game or IRL. They don't want to spend more than 30mins of their time spamming the same button sets in a dungeon. It gets repetitive and boring, especailly in dungeons that don't really require that much thinking; they aren't coil. Not to mention people who need to spam them for Poet cap/ current relic quests. I don't want to see someone be in the news for gouging their eye out over FF.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

I'm not pretending there aren't more players like you that queue for specific dungeons just becuase they enjoy them

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Oh, I have ulterior motives for running a dungeon too, but I always make sure to end up in an instance that I will enjoy. I am currently leveling my desynth and need the loot from 2.2 and 2.3 dungeons, but I never queue for Halatali and Stone Vigil because I am sick of them. And if I need to get in a dungeon that I do not like for Relic purposes (that's pretty much the only time where you have no other options), I make sure to go with at least 1-2 people I know so I can spare randoms my sucky attitude because I am not enjoying myself. I wouldn't rush others just because I don't wanna be there.

I like to enjoy dungeons to their fullest (like the new Wanderer's Palace <3) but that doesn't mean that we should slow down or speed up. Depending on party composition in the DF it can go really slow e.g two melee or extremely fast with Black mages. And finally it's up to the tank to pull a lot or pull little.

So I don't really mind how people get their kicks in game (I don't even judge what certain people do on certain rp servers >.>), but I just want to point out one specific idea that keeps recurring in this thread and others like it: the "I like slow pulls because I enjoy the dungeon" mentality. There's nothing really wrong with it, except that you're assuming I'm not having fun with large pulls. Large pulls are more efficient, but that doesn't mean efficiency is 100% of why people do them. I find them much more fun and engaging, personally.

To reiterate, it's perfectly fine if you don't enjoy the game the same way I do, but please don't assume that just because I like big pulls I must be some sort of brain-dead tome-bot.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Large pulls are more efficient

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This is only true if the group can handle the pull size. Yesterday, during duty expert, playing as my WHM i103, tank WAR i120ish, DPS were a BRD i115ish and NIN about i110ish. The tank was doing large pulls.
AoE burn is not sufficient in this group for large pulls. My healer just isn't strong enough to keep up with pulls that size and the NIN did not seem to understand how to dodge attacks.
We suffered two complete wipes on trash, and I had raise the NIN at least 3 other times during the run. This constant attention needing to be paid to a DPS, meant the tank was getting far too low on health on a repeated basis. Did the tank slow down? Nope, just kept pulling and pulling.

It was a very inefficient run as a result. The saving grace was no one was bickering in the chat. We all just endured and moved on with life.

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but please don't assume that just because I like big pulls I must be some sort of brain-dead tome-bot.

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Just like people assume that it means slowing down the group if you won't pull an entire set of trash (12 mobs) instead of 6 mobs. The difference is so slim in time gained that it doesn't even justify efficiency. If you like dancing? Sure. But please don't assume that just because I don't like to pull 12 mobs at a time that I'm some kind of casual brain-dead slow puller bot.

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don't act like it will be useless shortly after release.

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No your right, it is not useless shortly after release, it is useless before it is even released, it's a game, what is so useful and productive about playing it other than having fun?

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To play content that isn't just killing 100 trash mobs.

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Too bad that's pretty much all you do in MMOs, grinding stuff and killing trash mobs and bosses. That's what you do even in coil. Why do you run dungeons to get poetics? To get geared and then do what? Run coil? If not, then explain.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

But hey, I get the point, I am a selfish **** who is literally "forcing" others into a slow run (clearly). For any future readers, know that the topic has fleshed out, and while I may not be the best at expressing what I want to express, insulting me won't stop me from crying about the real problem. If you think I am selfish because I am tired of seeing people try to impose their "Speed Running" pulls onto me I don't see why they wouldn't be any worse than me...except that I never actually went "WELP I WONT SPEED PULL CAUSE YOU ARE A ****" If it ever goes to the point of needing to deal with it like needing to deal with highschool drama I will simply leave and let them find a better tank who will speed pull better than me.

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Are we in agreement about what The Real Problem is?

We've been speedrunning dungeons since 1.0 because of the slot machine reward system. [large quantities of people who want reward] + [intermittent reward payout] = play that tends towards efficiency: we want to squeeze in as many rolls as we can in our limited playtime. It's a perfectly reasonable attitude. And let's not forget the unluckiest of us, who probably want to spend as little time as possible in the same dungeon we've run dozens of times already.

We all remember WP abuse and Mythflox, but Zodiac turned the whole thing up to 11. Tens of thousands of players are running each of the lv.50 dungeons an indefinite number of times. As someone who is also doing Zodiac, surely you can sympathize with the soul-crushing horror of RNG.

What I'm getting at is: if the party is willing and able to bullet through the dungeon and you're stonewalling them because "I dun wanna" then it is selfish of you under the circumstances. The Real Problem is not you or them, but if you're not earnestly trying to mitigate the effects of The Real Problem then you're exacerbating them--and that's gonna rile people up.

You don't have to give a shit because it's unenforceable, but I like to think there's a social contract when playing with others online. A little bit of I-don't-waste-your-time-you-don't-waste-mine kinda thing.

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Are we in agreement about what The Real Problem is?

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Not sure if we are, because you did not even mention it in your whole post.

Because I want to finish dungeons as fast as possible for my 10% chance at a reward. If people are pulling one mob at a time, I'll politely ask for them to speed pull. If they don't want to, I'll just eat the 30 minute penalty and do other in game stuff in that game until I can try again. No time lost for me since I can do other in game stuff I normally do (maps, marketboard stuff, etc) or do irl stuff in the meantime. No point in arguing and name calling. If we have different play styles I just choose to leave.

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No time lost for me

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Not only are we not speaking about individual pulls, but the dungeon itself would take less than 30 mins. You would save at most 5 mins on a 20-25 mins run assuming the DPS is equal in both instances. It would still give you a chance at the item in question, and if you had gotten it you wouldn't have needed to wait that extra 30 mins. I understand what your saying but like I said a bit earlier I can reverse it all as well and just take a 30 mins cooldown and let the group find a tank who will speed pull better for them. If you "politely" asked them to speed up, then your out of the question and you aren't one of those people.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Not sure if we are, because you did not even mention it in your whole post.

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Maybe you speedread my post and missed it.

But seriously.

The Real Problem is the reward system itself, which conditions us to speedrun. One dungeon = one roll. More dungeons = more rolls. We are at the mercy of an indifferent, RNG system and we have been for years.

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The Real Problem is the reward system itself, which conditions us to speedrun. One dungeon = one roll. More dungeons = more rolls. We are at the mercy of an indifferent, RNG system and we have been for years.

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That's like saying we are all victim of an higher power that forces us to get these things. I don't agree with that the real problem is the reward system itself. To me, the real problem is people who assume I will pull the entire sets of trash without asking, and then imposing it onto me. Most people will then say I impose my "slow runs" on others, fair enough, however I don't do it the same way that others do it to me. If I start pulling at my pace and nobody complains, whats the deal? If they complain, then I will either speed up or leave, how did I impose it the same way they did to me?

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Not only are we not speaking about individual pulls, but the dungeon itself would take less than 30 mins. You would save at most 5 mins on a 20-25 mins run assuming the DPS is equal in both instances.

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It depends on the dungeon. Doing pulls one at a time in Wanderer's palace, for example, can make the run take 15-20 minutes. Doing a full pull until the first boss, full pull until the 2nd boss, full pull until the third boss can finish the dungeon in roughly 5-6 minutes with decent dps. Same story with Haukke HM or any number of other dungeons. The only dungeons that might only have a five minute difference are the newest ones since they put forced stoppage points in them.

Warrior is my main for PVE content, personally after I run a dungeon once, it loses it's thrill. If I'm just poetry farming, I'd rather do it as fast as possible to get it out of the way for the day. I approve of speed runs! maybe I'm bias because a warrior best tanks when he has more mobs than he can handle. POP cds, Infuriate>Internal Release>Berserk>BloodBath> keep your stacks for extra crit and just Overpower your tp awa. Steel cyclone before Beserk is up. self heal that madness

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Doing a full pull until the first boss, full pull until the 2nd boss, full pull until the third boss can finish the dungeon in roughly 5-6 minutes with decent dps. Same story with Haukke HM or any number of other dungeons.

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Even through full pulls, I have never personally experienced such a huge time gain. In most instances I experienced we have actually been wasting more time than saving it by pulling 12+ mobs. But my main point isn't really about efficiency itself but rather annoyance. I don't personally particularly care if the dungeon that should take 6 mins ends up taking 15 mins, but assuming you will queue in DF with pugs and get a 6 mins run is rather...strange...just like I think queueing for titan EX and expecting a 1-shot kill is strange.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Even through full pulls, I have never personally experienced such a huge time gain. In most instances I experienced we have actually been wasting more time than saving it by pulling 12+ mobs. But my main point isn't really about efficiency itself but rather annoyance. I don't personally particularly care if the dungeon that should take 6 mins ends up taking 15 mins, but assuming you will queue in DF with pugs and get a 6 mins run is rather...strange...just like I think queueing for titan EX and expecting a 1-shot kill is strange.

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Runs that fast require the healers to DPS. A WHM doing holy spam in WP for example, should get you 6 minute runs even with shoddy dps. Considering I mainly go into the dungeons as a WHM, that's probably why my runs are so fast. It's not really a speed run if your healers aren't dpsing 90% of the time doing stance dancing. And while it's fine that you don't care if your 6 minute run takes 15, it does for me since I'll have to spam that same dungeon 10+ times to likely see the rng drop I need.

If I'm tanking the dungeon, DPS don't pull initial aggro on mobs. You are just going to get my healer killed and you are just being an ass. Usually not a problem, but I meet the occasional special snowflake.