yet sooo entertaining when im bored at workQuote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
A request for some tough content.
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08-23-2011, 03:58 AMThanos
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08-23-2011, 04:06 AMPlague
That's why I generally stay away!
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08-23-2011, 04:07 AMDoctorMogBut the Logic Club needs help!Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague
Without your support, illogical threads get posted each day. Killing thousands of coherent ideas.
The forum community really needs to step it up and call these trolls out.
It's been going on far too long. -
08-23-2011, 04:11 AMRentahamsterInteresting concept for a boss fight. Good example.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
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08-23-2011, 04:13 AMDoctorMogQuote:
Originally Posted by Rentahamster
Thank you.
I actually went to college for game design.
Still looking for a job in the field =(
I have a billion ideas and nobody to give them to
/tear -
08-23-2011, 04:31 AMRentahamsterI shall hire you to make my new hamster-renting video game. It's an FPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
Please accept my tasty bushels of alfalfa as payment. -
08-23-2011, 04:33 AMDoctorMogYou must work for EA!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentahamster
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08-23-2011, 04:39 AMBaelari
Wow, actual good ideas on the forums. Mind is blown. Most people are very good at identifying things they dislike, but terrible at finding solutions to the problem, so I cringe at most the suggestions on these forums. I really would like to fight your bird, though.
Can we petition to get you hired by SE? -
08-23-2011, 05:10 AMDoctorMogLol, what a dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baelari
Petition away, but I don't think thats how people are hired XD.
Also, if anyone wants any more ideas for fights, I'll gladly post a few. -
08-23-2011, 05:14 AMPlagueI'll try to chime in once in a while, but me scurred!Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
But seriously though, good idea for the boss fight. You and keftenk would get along, hes another one with very good ideas. Don't worry, if I hit the lotto one day, I'll hire both of you!
DISCLAIMER: Do not stop applying for jobs. Because waiting for me to hit the lottery is a bad bad thing. -
08-23-2011, 05:28 AMDefmetal
I'll sign on board with this.
FFXI showed SE really knows how to code some challenging fights. It also showed they know how to balance them.
I kind of miss the days of Level-Capped fights - because those made it impossible to just keep leveling up until the fights became trivial. Of course this was a major problem until Level-Sync came around because you had to keep level-capped gear which was a MAJOR pain.
Everyone remember how hard Chains of Promathia was? That was an amazing expansion with incredible challenge and difficulty. Although it was the most anti-casual friendly expansion since Everquest adding Gates of Discord. (And it's retarded names like Tacvi and Qvic)
Remember how hard Alexander was? or Ultima/Omega? Absolute Virtue? Pandemonium Warden? Jormungand? Promyvion-Mea? Nidhogg?
FFXI, at level 75, had the most challenging boss fights in any modern MMO, and appropriate non-game breaking rewards. Unlike WoW where Raid Gear is easy to come by, and infinitely more powerful than Crafted/Group gear, FFXIs raid gear was only slightly more powerful than casual gear, but you had that prestiege of having it.
Example - in WoW with raid gear you'd have 20,000+ more HP than the next best casual player, yet in FFXI you'd have about the same HP, you'd have a few more strength attack or haste, but overall your damage output was similar, you're survivability was in the same ballpark, except you got to walk around showing off you beat the impossible.
That's what FFXIV needs. Even right now the current Raid Gear is not better than the crafted gear, A +3 Crafted beats most raid gear (exception being +3 Crafted NM gear), and that's ok. I'm walking around with my Canopus Bill just because it's proof I've beat Batraal and got the drop, but he's not a hard fight.
I'm against Timed Dungeons like that because it's anti-casual. I want casual content, and hard boss fights, that are hard on their own merit not because you had to do a speed run to get to it. I've found Connection Lost to be more difficult than the boss fights out now, but they are a great start.
What I think will help is Anti-Zerging methods: Such as mobs building resistance to a type of damage (bosses only).
The more it's hit by Arrows the less damage they deal, same with Slashing, Piercing, Elemental and Umbral damage. I think that's the best way to balance it for all classes to enjoy, because I certainly hated feeling like you "needed" SMN burns or BLM burns. It's not a matter of the truthfulness of it in games, it's player perception, which results in 100 page bitch threads. -
08-23-2011, 06:14 AMKiote
I just wish they would have level capped Toto-Rak so it would be, y'know, worth doing..
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08-23-2011, 06:16 AMDelmontyb
As both a casual and hardcore player (depends on the day/week/month - heck even year sometimes) I'm all for this and I do believe that both can co-exist.
So I'm all in support of this and this thread.
There is a lot they can do, so I for one am excited to see what comes down the pipe for both style of play. :) -
08-23-2011, 06:16 AMKiote
I would love to see something Level Capped with No timer to.. That'd be nice..
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08-23-2011, 06:43 AMDefmetal
Level-Capped Boss Fights keep the content fresh for all time. Means people can't outlevel the content to make it easy.
Of course for that to happen they'd have to implement a level-sync kind of feature (which the game needs anyways).
Yeah we need tough boss fights, as I said in previous post I miss the kind of rush you got from beating Alexander on the 7th or so attempt. I was a thief for years in FFXI so I had to earn my wins, unlike them lousy BLMs or SMNs who burned their way through fights.
As I said before again though, bosses should build resistance to damage types to prevent zerging of the same type. I hate seeing people think your need all archers or all con, and that would force players to mix/match parties.
You've got Blunt (Pug) Slash (Mar) Piercing (Lnc) Range (Arc) Slash/Pierce (Gla) and different kinds of magic dmg. (and of course, some of those classes have alternates, like marauders blunt dmg).
Ever beat the A Crystalline Prophecy boss using only a Corsair for damage? That's a fun fight. -
08-23-2011, 07:10 AMTezz_Xivectro
Take the predictability away from fights, but not 100% random either.
Somewhere in-between that lies the most challenging/fun fight. -
08-23-2011, 07:21 AMDeceptistar
Maybe SE can make a dungeon where pple cant change classes inside and a limit of 2 pairs (4pple) of identical jobs allowed in one PT. Add level caps, add time restraints like dynamis, hell maybe even solo dungeon etc etc. ^_^
Although the content that SE gives us is only as hard and easy as we ourselves are making it to be, by choosing the method and the amounts we do it.
One of the things our own LS did to not ruin the fun all too quickly was from the start, keep a steady pace the time and days of new implemented raid. We know that SE isnt going to be able to put in newer ones oh so soon, and nothing really comes out of numerous hours of squeezed in runs except fatigue and boredom. -
08-23-2011, 07:23 AMDoctorMog
Some more ideas came to mind on the drive home today:
I figured since my 1st quickie was well received, I would post another.
"Shape Shifter" - Changes his form to be resistant to damage. (normal NM)
This monster has a few quirks that you just have to work around.
He can only be damaged by 1 damage type at a time.
Of the 4 major damage types:
Blunt
Piercing
Slashing
Projectile
He can change at any time to be resistant to all but 1 type. All other damage types will do half damage.
On TOP of this "form" he is in, he also is represented by changing colors.
The color shows the magic type he is weak to. (All other types of magic will do half damage)
Recognizing which type he is weak to is important (again, this promotes a diverse party) This will also promote regimens leaving the person with the correct weapon vs weakness to be last in a well formed regimen.
He will do Damage based on the form he is in. For example if he is in projectile/fire mode, he will do fire and projectile damage. (This should make tanking interesting.)
This alone should make him challenging and fun, but I wanted to add one more thing to make him unique: (and keeping with Final Fantasy lore)
He absorbs half of the damage you do to him of the opposite type his current form is:
example:
He is in blunt / water mode.
If you do piercing or fire damage to him, he absorbs half of the damage you do as HP.
This fight would end early if you do too much of the "wrong" damage to him (the kind that would heal him) , he goes beserk and "melts" dropping no loot. (making this fight a "careful" fight.)
Anyway, that was my thought driving home. Hope you all like it. -
08-23-2011, 07:49 AMDonMega
I'm sure this will happen, matsui knows how to make challenging battles but i doubt we'll see much tough content until the battle reform is complete.
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08-23-2011, 07:58 AMZdenka
Your first example is soooooooooooo close to WoW's Al'ar I cannot just like it :/
Al'ar spawned circles, fire trails, mobs popping from those fire trails (which explode... i chuckled when someone mentioned yours should), had phases where it "dashed" to new positions (when it went fireball to to top, then exploded on the ground randomly... resetting all threat).
Fire trails prevented ranged from doing dps sometimes, and also prevented meele sometimes, and its fireball phase was a non-tank phase where it shot out fire at people and you couldn't tank it. Oh and both of them are phoenix.
The only thing really different is in your idea you must be inside the circle to do damage... otherwise it just seems like Al'ar to me with stuff happening in a slightly different order :/ (Though BC was pinnacle of WoW raiding imo)
I have had an idea for a while... let me flesh it out!!!
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Maybe for a new mission or job quest they send you to nanawa mines... outside the mines you get into a cutscene about how hot it is in Uldah... and when your character looks at the sun (setting behind the mountain) you see a giant leg come up over the top! (sorta like spiders in the movies) and behold...! a Giant Coblyn appears rushing down the mountain at you!
Phase1 Abilities:
Coblyn has a frontal cone damage hit.
Randomly Petrifies someone for 20s on a 45s interval (can be tank as well so that healers must be prepared if that happens).
Goes back and forth between "Crystalline defense" mode where it takes 0 damage in that mode. It only takes 35% normal damage in its normal mode.
In Crystalline Defense it takes 0 damage (hidden counter though tallying the damage). If you do not do the quota it petrifies EVERYONE for 10 seconds, goes and meeles people randomly 2 times (can be same person) and chooses another random target to perform its frontal AE cone move on. This means ranged could screw themselves by grouping up (if your DPS is too low).
Once you hit the "hidden HP" of Crystalline defense (4 rotations if you are preventing its Petrifiy, 5-6 if you aren't) the Giant Coblyn EXPLODES! (geyser something, whatever normal cobylns do) reducing everyones HP to 10% (doesn't effect stoneskin, so that will remain on), and resetting all threat (making it so everyone must manage healing threat, especially mages so that tank can repick up).
Phase2:
After he explodes 12 small cobylns L45ish will drop down along with 3 medium size coblyns L55-60ish from the air (Big Coblyn exploded into smaller coblyns!) and they must be picked up by your DPS before they converge on your healers.
If you do not destroy them quick enough, they will simultaneously Self-Destruct (12 small ones after 2 minutes, 3 medium ones after 3m30s for example) doing large damage for whatever ones you failed to kill.
Phase2 (Giant Coblyn changes):
When P2 starts the giant coblyn will be stunned for 15 seconds allowing the MT to regain threat on him and giving everyone a chance to get healed up, pick up medium coblyns etc. Giant coblyns eyes will turn red and its normal attacks are now frontal cones.
It still will randomly do its petrify and now every 60s it will do a new ability where it stomps on the ground, dealing roughly 20% HP damage to your entire alliance and throws them all (in a random direction) 10 yards. This wouldn't be too much of a problem but the fight takes place on a pedastol with a fall off point! (much like Diabolos in FFXI spider pits) Where you may get knocked off if too close to the edge to meet doom by 10 little red cobyns that will come out and eat you.
This mechanic forces the tank to reposition quickly before Giant Cobylns normal cone hits start hitting other people, and also forces him to tank nearer to the center (so he doesn't fall off the edge) making everyone more aware of their positioning.
Since the coblyn lost its top, instead of taking 35% damage like in P1 he will now take 200% damage. Also every 1 minute 3 small coblyns will fall from the sky with 1 medium size coblyn to enforce a DPS check.
If the fight lasts too long, the Giant Coblyn will Self-Destruct and kill everyone making you fail the battle.
oh how I <3 coblyns -
08-23-2011, 08:06 AMMikita
I'm definitely in favor of having challenging content that requires teamwork to overcome.
I can really sympathize with you here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadius
It's like eagerly waiting to see a new movie -- then someone who has read all the spoilers comes along and tells you the ending before you even get to see it.
One thing we can all do for ourselves is avoid reading any "how to beat ___" types of threads online -- and agree with your friends beforehand that you want to actually play and enjoy new content for yourselves. -
08-23-2011, 08:18 AMBittereye
Make things difficult, give us 'new' gear and not pallet swaps i.e. Alpines and Solid Scale Male. Im not a fan of this r30 and r50 Ifrit battle. The R50 will do just fine. Instead of focusing your attention on 2 battle of the same mob why not focus on making the R50 battle hard as hell. Talk about 2 birds!
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08-23-2011, 08:37 AMDefmetal
Theres nothing wrong with an R30 version ... it will give loot for level 30 players and probably have different abilities.
Let's review this fact:
FFXI had a level 20 Avatar fight and a level 60 Avatar fight, IE the Ifrit and Ifrit Prime battle.
They had different objectives and different rewards and different strategies.
They need to make sure this game is enjoyable for low to mid level players for the day the PS3 hits, and I don't have a problem with a Normal and a Hard version of dungeons. -
08-23-2011, 08:43 AMVydarrTyr
Doc, I love this idea. Couple thoughts.
I might be alone here, but I love being able to run back to back. Yes, it's a bone thrown to the casuals, because they can do the dungeon 5 times in a row on a weekend. And the hardcore crowd can run the dungeon dozens of times, potentially shortening its lifespan. But I actually enjoy refining tactics on successive runs.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
Sorry for the WoW reference, but "Get out of the fire. Get out of the fire. Get out of the fire."Quote:
1st Phase:
Boss "lobs" fireballs (random locations) at places on the ground, these areas become zones that remain for the entire fight. They will prevent everyone from "tank and spank" it will also give mele an advantage because they can not be "lobbed" to within mele range. Standing in them causes fire damage over time. Players must avoid these.
I love this idea. Another possible option is to have the same circular wall around the NM that prevents ranged DPS. The floor outside the circle turns to lava, except for randomly spawning areas that remain as "stone" (actually just nodes). Ranged DPS can only avoid lava damage while standing on those nodes. This not only forces the ranged DPS to take damage while running to the new nodes, but also slows down their DPS while they run to new nodes. (Or they can stand within melee range and take damage that way.)Quote:
2nd Phase: (66%)
In addition to the fire lobs, the boss begins fleeing from its position to a random location. Once it arrives, it "charges" for 5 seconds and emits a substantial aoe. This leaves a "ring" on the ground (hollow in the middle) that can not be stepped in. The AOE is meant to bring players into the circle. You must fight the boss inside this circle (with ever growing less space due to phase 1 skill) If someone is left outside this circle, they will need to run in to dps. (the "ring" will prevent a full archer burn pt)
Another option is, instead of lava causing more fire damage, mix in a different elemental damage. Maybe ice can start falling from the ceiling and spiking up from the floor. Or maybe lore says that the Phoenix is trapped in the cave by wind elementals, and the two are locked in a never ending struggle for supremacy, so Wind Elementals will spawn around the Phoenix, causing wind damage outside the circle.
All right. I'm clearly just geeking out now. I'll shut up.
The Marauder in me takes offense, sir. Marauders can both tank and AoE those stupid little fire turds down. :)Quote:
3rd Phase 33%
The monster will do all previous skills.
This phase is not tanked.
Here he goes into a rage and begins to run around. (this will prevent a full mele burn party) As he runs around, he leaves a trail of fire behind him, (think a leaking gasoline tank lit on fire) so that mele can not "follow". Melee would need to anticipate his moves, spread out and hit him on the run by.
From the fire he "poops" out, comes smaller fire elementals. these are VERY easy monsters to kill, but there is a large quantity of them. (think mage aoe fest) The tank should gather these up and have the mages aoe them down.
Anyway, really like the idea. And really like the idea of a varied challenge. -
08-23-2011, 10:25 AMRoaranQuote:
Some more ideas came to mind on the drive home today:
I figured since my 1st quickie was well received, I would post another.
"Shape Shifter" - Changes his form to be resistant to damage. (normal NM)
This monster has a few quirks that you just have to work around.
He can only be damaged by 1 damage type at a time.
Of the 4 major damage types:
Blunt
Piercing
Slashing
Projectile
He can change at any time to be resistant to all but 1 type. All other damage types will do half damage.
On TOP of this "form" he is in, he also is represented by changing colors.
There was a NM in sea that was like that... some pot if I remember correctly. -
08-23-2011, 10:27 AMKailea_Nagisa
making a boss fight an hour long does not make it hard -.- makes it annoying
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08-23-2011, 10:28 AMDavorokGo play FFXI.It's still there if that's what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
Sorry. J/K. I couldn't resist. I hate it when peeps say that.
I am all for content that's geared towards many different playstyles. I know some would complain that "..I can't solo that so it's restricted content", but that complaint is always BS. I prefer doing my own thing most of the time but I like to Party up for challenging content too...sometimes.
With FFXI, I loved Campaign cuz it was kinda middle ground between soloing and grouping and would love to team up with others for some epic battles (Behest just doesn't cut it). -
08-23-2011, 01:31 PMNel_Celestine
personally I'd like to see another dungeon similar to Darkhold with two different 5th chests. one for speed running and one for killing everything on the way there. Speed running has to be easy if your not actually fighting more then 2 bosses and a few skellies. Trying doing the dungeon clearing the whole wall. =)
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08-23-2011, 01:41 PMPSxpert2011
At an intellectual level, most gamers can be stereo-typed as morons and too lazy to brainstorm, puzzle-solve, number-crunch, use critical thinking and micro-manage a personal budget. Lets not take this personally, most of us grow up sooner than others...., some just continue being childish.
What's hard for most can be easy to others and even for the elite and witty, some challenge can be over-rated because now the game isn't just a game but public policy for casuals to enjoy themselves rather than meet a ball-busting challenge to be rewarded equipment suitable for a champion gamer. -
08-23-2011, 03:18 PMindira
they need to mix things up like in a kill quest/leve make me have to get a key open something then kill stuff, just an abstract example.
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08-23-2011, 03:30 PMweeble
i agree with the op, all exept i can care less bout u casuals lmao, jk ..but really. lol no no just kidding kk. :)
but yeah like other said i don't think this is gonna happen it feels like it's leaning towards the opposite ...it's just gonna keep getting easier. it has too i think, people like the op will leave the game, less players that actually put party groups together are in game, everyone is running around solo chickens with head cut off, they gotta make it even more easier for them to enjoy. i don't think it can co-exist personally, a game needs to be one way or other, ....or it is just 2 games that are half and half. granted when i'm bored i can go enjoy the other half for awhile then go back to the party structures and the harder content, but all in all i think mmo's need to stop trying to be both.
but yeah i pray we get some content like this, ...it needs content like this. -
08-23-2011, 03:34 PMZygot
I remember when the grand dragons came out. It took months of testing strategies and figuring things out before Tiamat, the easiest of the three went down. Even then it took about three hours of timing and concentration on part of about 30 ppl. Yet I'd have to say it still has to be one of my favorite times in xi. The whole fighting for hours and wiping at 1% was what made it exciting. I miss the challenge and hard work that went into those fights, especially early days.
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08-23-2011, 03:40 PMZachCeroWhy would we help out a person who call rains of fire down on people who seems to making foolish request, like you are?Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
I've followed a few threads and man you and a few people take the cake on Elitism. They need to balance the game and release alot more content before catering to your demands.
BTW not searching forums to fire @ you but notice you posted this thread after helping a few people Murder Rogue cold in the middle of forum st. -
08-23-2011, 03:46 PMweeblelike what bunny costumes that everyone can get by one shotting a giant buffalo and the gear gives 9999dmg on anything u can't kill without using some brains and group activity. no no just kidding lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachCero
i'm not elitist but come on ...this is the only thing in all the mmo worlds that it needs to be a great mmo. granted the game needs to be fixed first... i'm sure the op means when it is all said and done. infact he wants to co-exist with causal gameplay, lol i'd put u all on one piece of land and unplug it. jk jk haha. -
08-23-2011, 03:48 PMDGMart
I disagree with the OP because first of all FFXI is not hard. Time has nothing to do with difficulty unless it's endurance run. 11 had HNM with a lot of hp but you did the same thing over. How is that any difference? If you want something harder just ask for something harder and not use FFXI as a form of difficulty because let's be honest WOW has more difficulty and dynamic bosses/nm's than FFXI by far.
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08-23-2011, 03:59 PMOkiuraElitism - is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite — a select group of people with intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachCero
A challenge is a general term referring to things that are imbued with a sense of difficulty and victory.
I'm not sure how asking for a Challange equals Elitism, and not sure how to take your post seriously if you're not even able to make a distinction between the two. but hey it is that kind of simple minded gamer that SE is aiming for.
Edit: Definitions were copied form Wikipedia cos i didn't feel like the challange of writhing it myself so i took the l33t approach, Ctrl+C -> Ctrl+V -
08-23-2011, 05:13 PMSnowTiger
Agreed, 100%.
We need mobs like Vrtra and items like Relic Weapons. Even if you never do that kind of content, it's nice having that upper tier layer of the game around. -
08-23-2011, 06:20 PMSeikninkuruI wouldn't perse'. The current dungeon doesn't really seem that interesting to me. If the boss fight is easy as you say, then you basically run past content to fight 2 easy mobs for loot. AKA loot pinata.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
I'd rather have more engaging adventures than simply boss encounters or the amalgamation of oddities we have now. -
08-23-2011, 08:03 PMNixius
+1 with OP, but I doubt we will see anything of the sorts until the job system is implemented and tweaked, I think adding too much content before seeing how jobs etc play out may be risky.
Saying that, we need content to keep people interested in playing until after the changes, and DH has been released so... a bit of a predicament I feel. -
08-23-2011, 08:17 PMChinchilla
+1 to the OP as well
As soon as you explained the difference between 'not knowing' and 'difficult' it brought to mind AV from FFXI.... obv i don't mean easymode xi that it is now, but the game from 2-3 years ago.
This post reminds me of how much I loved huge HNM fights in XI like Tiamat, Khim... etc. Everyone knew how to kill it, but it's not like it was cake (at first anyway). 4 years ago those fights took more than just a gaggle of people being told what to do before hand. Communication and skill was key... (again don't mistake that for post level cap increase)
Any fight where you know 1 slip up can cost you the mob and drops puts you on edge. Then the reward for killing it (especially the first handful of times) is something I've yet to experience in any game other than ffxi. It's what made it the best.
And I know I'll get some hate from this, but ground kings were awesome. The difficulty added to them just from being nervous that you'd lose it to a rival group was enough to want to try and kill it. Land kings were EPIC to say the least. If this game is going to be all instanced raids and leves then it's never going to hold the type of appeal other games can. I know xi's land kings were semi borked due to claimbots and stuff, but it was nothing you couldn't fight with an alliance full of people paying attention and trying to claim.
LOVED hnms in xi, there was no greater feeling I got from a game like I did from those.