Raiding Progression Thread (2.4 and onwards)

I guess I just see it differently, idk.

I highly recommend you give putting together a Savage party a shot. Not only will you see why we still consider it progression content, but it's TONS of fun. T8 Savage is easily my favorite fight in this game after doing it. I couldn't encourage trying it more. :)

I have before, but honestly I don't see the point...except for T9 since I like that title but eh...it's whatever

The point is it's difficult content that isn't trivialized by better gear. Echo based coils can be cheesed with i130 gear. Savage cannot be. If you're asking what the point of tackling difficult content or take challenges (like doing 4-man T9, stuff like that) then I'm sure not anything I say will make you see things differently. It appears that you may want different things out of the game, which is perfectly fine, but ultimately not the point of threads like this.

Regardless, I welxome differing opinions or discussion in general.

That's where I have to disagree with you. I'm sure that, even after fcob has echo and with people doing savage in 130 gear, savage is still harder. However, there is a significant difference between doing savage in 110, which is what it was designed for, and doing it in 130, which is overgeared. Which brings me to my point that, is clearing content months after it was released and being overgeared for it considered progression? Sure you can use 110 gear for it now, but you can also remove the echo in fcob, which you are no longer tracking.

The more I think about it, the more I find myself being swayed by Hood Rat.

Judging the validity of an accomplishment is never easy. For example, we can swear up and down that savage are still by FAR the most difficult fights in the game, and it's a noteworthy achievement for our server to have them cleared. But most people have no baseline of comparison to actually understand how insane 7-9 still is, only our word to go on.
Similarly, the argument can be made that a team who has spent MONTHS pushing for a clear should not have their hard work dismissed because they took too long. In the same vein as the 'what should we do, just leave the savage clears empty forever?' argument, I'm imagining the FC which finally beats Bahamut after blood, sweat and tears, only for THEIR clear entry to remain empty forever just because some elitist raiders said so.

Perhaps a new symbol is in order, such as a ■ - symbolizing a group has cleared content after the patch which added it the dutyfinder. After all, we don't fail to recognize brand-new companies that appear on the scene and clear T9 months after echo, and I'm not sure t13 should be any different. In these last two months before 3.0, our progression thread should be a testament for WHY raiding on Brynhildr is healthy instead of continuing the bullshit reasoning that claims you need to transfer to be successful.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's where I have to disagree with you. I'm sure that, even after fcob has echo and with people doing savage in 130 gear, savage is still harder. However, there is a significant difference between doing savage in 110, which is what it was designed for, and doing it in 130, which is overgeared. Which brings me to my point that, is clearing content months after it was released and being overgeared for it considered progression? Sure you can use 110 gear for it now, but you can also remove the echo in fcob, which you are no longer tracking.

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I understand what you're saying, and while I'm considering what you and Steel said above (including credit still for kills with echo) - there is a HUGE difference between non-echo vs echo standard Coil, vs. the difference between Savage in i110 vs. 130 gear. I don't disagree that Savage, at least parts of it, might be made a bit easier with i130 gear, but it's not like going through older content with echo on, believe me. There's many additional mechanics added in that will simply just destroy groups regardless of how much higher their HP is; having 1k to 2k extra HP will not let a group survive against many of the instant one-shots in the fights. Again, I highly encourage you to give them a solid try and see what I mean. I would consider Savage still the hardest thing to do in this game (by a HUGE margin), so yes, it's most definitely still progression. Put it this way, downing T13 with average i levels of 110 to 115 (when the fight first came out) is still nowhere near as difficult as any of the Savage fights.

In light of this discussion however, I think I will continue to track all kills (including FCoB); I've considered it more and it's healthy for this server in general to continue to encourage more raiding in general from more groups and free companies. If people do feel strongly about this (I welcome more opinions on this), I see no reason to not celebrate kills all the way to Heavensward.

T9 Savage cleared by <Onion> Tonight!

http://i.imgur.com/Z8gdPJ5.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVs6hgWKIUo

http://onionknightsfc.com/

What if the group disables and provides proof of clearing without echo? This is if a different symbol is used to track kills from now til Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's where I have to disagree with you. I'm sure that, even after fcob has echo and with people doing savage in 130 gear, savage is still harder. However, there is a significant difference between doing savage in 110, which is what it was designed for, and doing it in 130, which is overgeared. Which brings me to my point that, is clearing content months after it was released and being overgeared for it considered progression? Sure you can use 110 gear for it now, but you can also remove the echo in fcob, which you are no longer tracking.

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There's only 1 real Savage fight you can cheese through in 130, which is Savage 6. With 7, you still have to deal petrifaction/shriek/voice. With 8, you still have to deal with Allagan Field(which is 5x damage, instead of 2x) and tower shenanigans. With 9, you have to deal greatly increased HF damage, meteors during last phase, tank vulnerability up, etc...As opposed to 13, which, even before echo, in i130, was trivial at worst. Increased HP generally negates the danger of Megaflare, Rage, Giga...

Essentially, 13, especially with echo, isn't really as much to write home about any more. Savage(other than 6) is still an enormous undertaking because of the nature of the mechanics.

Edit: Also congrats to Mario and Spartan for downing 9 and 7. The coordination required for 7 especially is an absolute nightmare.

Excuse my ignorance, but it is really needed to stop tracking T13 while savage is?, even with echo, I think its an achivement for some, and if, I think, the objective of this thread it's to show the groups that are raiding and might want to expand, or just to show themselves, and as Hood Rat said, maybe i130 gear might not help that much, but you can't deny that having better gear improves dps and avoids stuff like vit stats and gear, only I can think of right now. Also, considering that there are people that cleared savage T7 before but didn't posted or said anything in this thread just because it is not of interest.
My point is, if you made this thread to track groups who clear raids and primals in the server, I think you should keep doing it for all the fights, for the actual content that is, at least if the people really want to.

Please read above - I'm going to continue tracking kills. Also, is there proof of anyone on this server actually beating Savage T7 before the kill pic posted a few days ago? Forgive me for sounding harsh, but I'd need to see proof because I severely doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Asherek

Please read above - I'm going to continue tracking kills. Also, is there proof of anyone on this server actually beating Savage T7 before the kill pic posted a few days ago? Forgive me for sounding harsh, but I'd need to see proof because I severely doubt it.

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I'd like to see this as well. The amount of preparation and coordination that fight takes is just ridiculous for this game's standards. There's no excuse for not posting a Savage kill regardless of how late into the content patch it is. These fights are the pinnacle of endgame challenge-wise, even if the loot rewards are nonexistent. Savages provide a lot of good practice for what is to come in Heavensward. Especially since I heard through the grapevine from Yoshi-P that Alexander Hard is going to be on par with SCoB savage modes. I implore anyone who hasn't attempted these fights to do so.

Seeing as how A) It's likely that less than 100 teams in the world have killed 7 Savage and B) Brynhildr was currently ranked based on FCoB completion, 59th out of 64 servers, it's extremely unlikely that there was any undocumented Savage kill, especially on Bryn, considering it's overall lack of endgame presence.

Not to insult Bryn or it's inhabitants, but the chances of some upstart random group on the server puling it together enough to kill 7 Savage then saying, "meh, no big deal", is so small that it might as well be impossible.

Edit: The aforementioned study. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-embarrassing

That should be fine, but also, I might suggest having more rules regarding which fights are going to be counted for progression, instead of because it's hard as that could be very subjective.

Regarding T7, as I said, some of us didn't really paid too much attention to this thread, so I don't think there will be anything regarding that as I just used it as an example for what I wanted to say.

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Originally Posted by x-_-ILLUSION-_-x

...some upstart random group

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First of all, I think you're taking that too seriously, just because you don't know the entire raiding scene of the server I don't think you can judge by saying, random group to people who know from long before... and if you haven't noticed, the raiding status in general of the server has increased considerably.
And even so, there are people clearing stuff without even being in the same FC, but most of them are friends from long before, who are dedicated to raiding, so I wouldn't consider them as a "upstart random group".

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Originally Posted by Songi

There's no excuse for not posting a Savage kill regardless of how late into the content patch it is.

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Just because Ido requires the constant attention of everyone around him doesn't mean everyone else does.

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Originally Posted by x-_-ILLUSION-_-x

Not to insult Bryn or it's inhabitants, but the chances of some upstart random group on the server puling it together enough to kill 7 Savage then saying, "meh, no big deal", is so small that it might as well be impossible.

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"Just cleared savage T7, nbd," is what I'd go with. Would most likely just be in /p too, can't speak for everyone else though.

I find it far-fetched to believe that a group with the drive to down T7 Savage would not be aware of the progression thread and post in it, or at the very least, make it well known on the server that they've cleared it. Savage provides no rewards aside from a title. The only reason to do it is for the challenge of beating one of the toughest fights in the game. When someone goes through the type of effort required to down a Savage turn, they probably want some kind of recognition of it. It's not necessarily wanting attention, but just recognition of the hard work and talent put into achieving that goal.

Think of like, that tightrope walker dude who does it over stupid things like the Grand Canyon or the Chicago River. Do you really think he'd do any of that if there weren't TV screens everywhere? No. He's not going to do something that difficult if no one is going to recognize that. That doesn't make him an attention whore, it makes him human. People generally want recognition for their accomplishments. So the type of person to put the effort into downing any of Savage is the type of person who understands what that accomplishment is, has a relatively good idea of progression on the server, and would most likely have posted about it or made it well known throughout the server.

I don't believe that's a very good metaphor. As you said, he didn't seek recognition but he was sought after. Equating that to this would be someone seeking out those who cleared savage and putting them in this thread instead of the people who actually cleared doing it.

I'm not trying to say savage is easy or take away anyone's accomplishment, I just don't believe that recognition should be given for clearing something after surpassing the specs it was designed for, even if it is the first clear on the server; especially with the notion of "fcob has 10% echo it's irrelevant now." If anyone here truly seeks recognition for clearing savage, they should have boarded that train before it left the station.

It's obvious people here are becoming extremely defensive about it, especially with statements that savage cannot be "cheesed" with 130 gear when that was nowhere near what I said. I doubt I will be unable to persuade all of you, whether it's because I don't make a convincing argument or you are just simply incapable of understanding. I will take my leave now. I am disappointed that a few people decided to turn a simple question into a game of childish banter.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I don't believe that's a very good metaphor. As you said, he didn't seek recognition but he was sought after. Equating that to this would be someone seeking out those who cleared savage and putting them in this thread instead of the people who actually cleared doing it.

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That is not what I said. He DID seek recognition. He would most likely not do such insane stunts were he not to get recognition for them.

But if I were to use your logic, that would mean we shouldn't recognize any clears for any of FCOB that wasn't done in i110. That's what it was designed for after all. Anything more is "surpassing the specs it was designed for." Personally, I think we should track all organized clears (I would even argue for the possibility of opening it up to recognizing individual groups that may be part of the same FC for their accomplishments as opposed to just tracking FC progression, but that's a separate argument). I think our (admittedly sparse) raiding scene should be celebrated, not held back by some saying, "you were too late." So I have to strongly disagree with your sentiment. A server first, or really any clear of difficult content, especially when that content is still the most difficult content in the game, regardless of gear, should be celebrated by our server, not dismissed due to it's timing.

Few things:

1. As I stated in my last post, I'm going to continue tracking *all* kills if people post them in this thread. If any FC's (or statics) want their accomplishments to be tracked, all the better; after further thought about this, kills are kills, regardless of echo or not.

2. Hood Rat - to be honest, this was a very civil discussion, at least until your last post. I don't see any childish banter. Your thoughts, along with Soru's, Steel's, Kezy's and a couple of ingame tells were taken into consideration when I reversed the stance on tracking kills. What's obvious though is that you don't seem to be open to, nor understand the discussion about Savage, when in reality it appears that you don't seem to have much experience in it (I'm welcome for you to prove me wrong about this). Equating echo in FCoB with i130 gear in Savage is just not even remotely a similar comparison. I say that as someone who has cleared a Savage turn in i110, and several attempts in other ones - until you've truly tried to take one down for real, you won't realize that even with i130 gear it far surpasses anything else this game has to offer in terms of raiding skill required, even Turn 13 in i110 gear (the minute it came out). Regardless, all of this is a moot discussion; I'm going to continue tracking kills, regardless if they are Savage, FCoB or even SCoB if FC's feel they want to be recognized for that in this thread, without judgement or reservation.

3. Soru/Hood - There is going to be no one that takes out a Savage turn and then just says "meh, no big deal". This isn't about attention seeking "like Ido" - there is a group of people who aren't unnecessarily attention seeking but also don't fall into the "i don't care category". Again, I welcome either of you to prove me wrong and I'll gladly eat my words and update the main post. Until that happens however, there are only 15 people on this server who have cleared Savage T6, 8 for T7, 8 for T8 and 8 for T9, that cleared it while on this server (i.e. not transferred). I encourage more people to go out and clear them and add to the list - I mean that sincerely.

Just cleared T2!!! Can I be on here? Going for T3 tonight wish me luck! <3

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I'm not trying to say savage is easy or take away anyone's accomplishment, I just don't believe that recognition should be given for clearing something after surpassing the specs it was designed for, even if it is the first clear on the server; especially with the notion of "fcob has 10% echo it's irrelevant now." If anyone here truly seeks recognition for clearing savage, they should have boarded that train before it left the station.
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You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but, to be blunt, that doesn't change the fact that something like T13, especially with echo, isn't particularly significant when compared to something like Savage 7 or 9. Sorry if that upsets you, but it's the truth.

Of course, Ash said he'd keep tracking anyways, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Glad this was all resolved before I threw in my two cents. Congratulation to all on recent kills, and good luck on future kills. I hope all get the kills they desire prior to xpac. /cheer

I'm Ido. I seek attention apparently. Here I am. Give me attention.

Just to fill you in... Did t3 last night!!!! Thanks to all my friends who carried me! So glad I'm finally progressing!

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Originally Posted by Kezy_Kaatapoh

recognition of the hard work and talent put into achieving that goal.

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Not everyone who does amazing things wants recognition, but who knows why raiders seek so much... I'm not a psychologist anyway.

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Originally Posted by Asherek

I encourage more people to go out and clear them and add to the list - I mean that sincerely.

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I agree that this server is not exactly hardcore, as I would like to get a static that could do it, and some cookies, but life is hard. sincerely.

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Originally Posted by LeiRevera

Just cleared T2!!! Can I be on here? Going for T3 tonight wish me luck! <3

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Amazing job!!! but we might need pictures to be sure, as everyone is doing.

1 week to go! Will be updating the first post on the thread to reflect Heavensward and move all of Realm Reborn content to the 2nd post in the next little while.

Updated with initial Heavenward content.

Onion Knights have successfully cleared Bismark Extreme for Server First.

World 3rd.

http://i.imgur.com/0G2ixPN.jpg

Main post updated!

Onion Knights have successfully cleared Ravana Extreme for Server First.

World 5th

http://i.imgur.com/XkMT90C.jpg

Main Post Updated!

Bismarck dead, Aeon.

Grats, updated!

Ravana dead too, Aeon. Thank you for keeping this thing updated.

Shoot i forgot to post the clear for ravana and bismark ex XD but even so if my static is not full we have cleared both ex primals. No Pony Static.

Azure has killed both Bismarck and Ravana. And now has a full FC clear of Ravana since people are done leveling + actually online. Forgot to screen cap :(

Updated, grats!

Alexander normal is very cool, easily some of the best raid bosses we've seen thusfar. However, it is decisively not progression content and will be DF farmed within the week. (Also, grats to the Filthy Casuals static on their impressive clear time!)

http://i.imgur.com/14Vpsxv.png

Actually it was the Filthy Casuals Static that cleared Alex normal this morning, not the No Pony Static. Thank you nonetheless though! I would have to agree with Papa Steel though, the bosses were definitely some of the best I've seen so far, but it's not raid content. Looking forward to savage!

#FilthyCasuals