Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

I think they just don't want to have to rewrite any of the stuff that's in the game already.

Paladins are holy warriors that wouldn't be caught dead at a coliseum. Monks are spiritual ones that are more the "eschew earthly possessions" types than the kind that would run a gambling hall. Elemental magic (Fire, Burn, Flare) belongs to black mages, but you can't take it away from conjurers because they worship the elementals in the Twelveswood.

Basically, to replace them they'd have to redesign sections of every city, rework every reference any NPC has to those guilds and classes, and alter the storylines related to the ones that don't fit at all. It's a lot easier to just throw some NPCs in each that starts a quest to unlock a job. They're also scared they'll hurt our feelings or something by changing things too much when they're so set on keeping the servers running and our progress in-tact.

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Cecil ruthlessly murdered Mysidians in the first 10 minutes of Final Fantasy IV.
Amarant Coral was a vagabond and hired assassin in Final Fantasy IX.

Does anyone else want to give their shot at correlating jobs with character traits and completely negate the possibility that there are individuals behind each playable character?

While not always an appropriate variable...

-the best selling Final Fantasy games were ones with an open ended character progression system.
-the draw of MMO's is getting to play with others in a persistent online world and overcoming obstacles by coordinating with others in order to compliment your strengths and diminish or completely negate your weaknesses.

The proposed system, with what little information we have, effectively satisfies both a casual and hardcore audience. Unfortunately there are people that want to have their cake and eat it too. Which I'm fine with, but it's not your birthday, it's the company potluck. If you don't like cheesecake then maybe you should have brought something else to the potluck or had a nice hostess cupcake at home, by yourself, watching DVR'd reruns of Late Night with Conan O'Brien.

I will address your points separately.

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Originally Posted by AJ_Anyia

So what you're saying, is that there is more variety and useability in being limited to one job and half of another job versus having access to multiple job's abilities all at once? I don't see much of an illusion there. The job system mandates that certain people have to come as certain jobs to make things run smooth, where as in the current armory system people can swap out as need dictates. Again I state that being able to put what you want on a class and not be mandated to a certain set of abilities is still better. If you SAM/THF all you have are that SAM's abilities and half the level's of THF. I fail to see the flexibility, the only job from XI that really has player's choice is Blue Mage since you can choose what spells, and in turn traits, you have. Other than that, you're stuck to your main and sub's stuff. Being a BST/WHM for soloing isn't what I'd consider versatile. The only variety you have are your pets

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Again, you make it painfully obvious that you have little no no understanding of how the subjob system impacted job roles in FFXI. Your vast over-simplification that the subjob system is merely "half the levels of another class" is a gross misrepresentation of what you gained through your choice of subjob.

Since I have increasing doubts that you have any significant experience with FFXI, I'd prefer if you don't bring it up in your arguments. There is tremendous flexibility in the subjob system merely because of how valuable certain traits/abilities were in FFXI. A Sam/War would do considerably more damage than a Sam/Nin, but be far more fragile. A Sam/Thf would have great aggro control and great burst damage, but weaker sustained DPS and slower TP gain. In ANY example, the subjob significantly augments the performance of the base job. This leads to many meaningful choices. Do I want to do more raw DPS? Can my tank handle me going war sub? Should I play it safe and help my tank with threat with Thf sub? Should I go Nin sub to lessen the burden on the healers and keep myself alive? When soloing, Dnc sub or Nin sub?

I challenge you to find any class abilities in FFXIV which so fundamentally alter your gameplay experience the way subjobs did. Yes, despite having access to all abilities from every class, there are no meaningful choices to be made. No, equipping Raise or Cure II on your Archer does not even come close to the depth of the subjob system.

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And while those few cherry picked things may look minor, they are in fact what makes things catered to the solo/small groups. You don't need dedicated healers for leves or exp burning, it makes thing run a heck of a lot smoother having them I'll admit, but they aren't mandatory. Now that's not an every instance situation, in some they are absolutely necessary. Not only that, but here we are able to change on the fly where as in XI we had to go all the way back, change, etc. In XI is a healer d/c's and doesn't come back you're screwed. In XIV if a CON d/c's, and granted if someone else has it leveled, progress continues. Or if there's a total wipe save one DD, chances are there's a higher probability that DD from XIV has CON leveled to a point that he/she has raise versus XI where its subbed whm/rdm soley for raise. I haven't seen too many RNG/WHM or RNG/RDM out there and the ones I did see were subbed RDM for wildfire/trueflight only and that was all they were there for. But I know plenty of ARC, GLA and PUG that have enough levels in CON for a clutch raise should the situation warrant it. Again I'll say that I'll take being able to pick and choose what I want versus being told, "This is what you have, deal with it."

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Uhm, the grind from 1-50 is quite casual at the moment. A dedicated player can do it in a week fairly easily. The cherry picked things look minor because they ARE minor. Changing the class system to a job only system will barely impact the levelling process as long as every class is given some baseline way to heal/drain/mitigate a little while solo. Your entire argument basically centers around equipping Raise/Healing spells on classes that cannot normally equip them. That's not meaningful and it's certainly not a hard choice to make when each spell only costs 2-3 action points out of what, 50-70 you have? Again, you only have the illusion of choice here. In FFXI, there were some real decisions to be made when a RDM subbed BLM over WHM. Here, it's pretty damned straightforward which abilities you want to be using at any given moment.

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Granted subjobs gives versatility to the main jobs, but that comes at a price. I can change things on the fly in XIV, but in XI I have to go all the way back to my MH/Nomad Moogle to change subjobs which interrupts the flow of whatever it is that's going on. And now if a job implementation is put into the game, the elitism will come back where if people don't have things set to a way that's comfortable they'll get booted out of groups or whatever. And all of these "cherry picked" things are just that only because of the limited classes that are out right now, more will be released and more things will become available to us to choose from. Am I in favor of a job system to augment or specifically style a job for a set amount of time? Sure, why not since it would make things easier to set yourself to a job and have your abilities automatically change to that job's style. Am I in favor or abolishing the class and armory system in favor of job classes? No. NO. Hell. No.

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I never said we need to implement a mog house. Job swaps can be handled on the fly by the same way the class system is - changing your weapon. Also, optimization is not the same thing as elitism. If you're running around as an Archer with 30 DD spells from Conjurer, you deserve to get booted from whatever party you're in. There is a such thing as playing your class well and playing it poorly, and if you think this reality is somehow tied to the premise of a job system, you'd be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Cecil ruthlessly murdered Mysidians in the first 10 minutes of Final Fantasy IV.
Amarant Coral was a vagabond and hired assassin in Final Fantasy IX.

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Cecil was a Dark Knight when he did that, but I see the point you're trying to make.

However, I do agree that changing everything to fit the old job names at this point would be way too much work. They should just add the new jobs with the traditional FF names as extensions of the original classes, like they're doing presently.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Cecil ruthlessly murdered Mysidians in the first 10 minutes of Final Fantasy IV.
Amarant Coral was a vagabond and hired assassin in Final Fantasy IX.

Does anyone else want to give their shot at correlating jobs with character traits and completely negate the possibility that there are individuals behind each playable character?

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Cecil was a dark knight at that point and had to atone for it, becoming a paladin. It's beside the point anyway.

The point wasn't that people can't do their own thing, but that a congregation of those jobs would be focused on something different. A single monk may become a gambler, but as an order they would be focused on spirituality, not running a gambling hall. See the difference?

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Originally Posted by Firon

They are going to move abilities and spells around classes so CON> to WHM will make sense. I Really like the 1 Class = 1 job cause i think its lame you can lvl 1 class and have multiple lvl 50's jobs basically, I rather them make more base classes

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They are thinking about cross class = 1 job for later, too
Class A + Class B = Job Y

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Originally Posted by Felis

They are thinking about cross class = 1 job for later, too
Class A + Class B = Job Y

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This would be pretty damned neat.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Cecil was a dark knight at that point and had to atone for it, becoming a paladin. It's beside the point anyway.

The point wasn't that people can't do their own thing, but that a congregation of those jobs would be focused on something different. A single monk may become a gambler, but as an order they would be focused on spirituality, not running a gambling hall. See the difference?

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.. and Amarant? By the logic proposed, Amarant as a character shouldn't/can't exist. Final Fantasy V introduced the job system and any character could be anything. The point still stands.

There's also nothing keeping them from separating them in that sense from a lore perspective. Pugilists wanting to atone. Gladiators putting aside their coliseum training. If I remember correctly you'll still need to unlock the jobs, you'll just be of the same level as your class when you do. Nothing needs to be rewritten.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

There's also nothing keeping them from separating them in that sense from a lore perspective. Pugilists wanting to atone. Gladiators putting aside their coliseum training. If I remember correctly you'll still need to unlock the jobs, you'll just be of the same level as your class when you do. Nothing needs to be rewritten.

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/facepalm

Re-read my original post, which is about exactly what you're saying. They can't replace the classes with jobs like the OP is suggesting because they'd also need to replace some of the guilds with ones that match jobs. They can add jobs to the existing system (and are) just fine because they don't require that.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

.. and Amarant? By the logic proposed, Amarant as a character shouldn't/can't exist. Final Fantasy V introduced the job system and any character could be anything. The point still stands.

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He's included in the rest of the explanation. There is no large group of people working as assassins-for-hire but calling themselves "monks" in the world of FFIX. He's a single guy, and you're right, he can do whatever he wants with his monk training.

Your "point" is both correct and utterly irrelevant to what I said, which is about the OP's suggestion to replace classes with jobs and how the guilds (not individuals in those guilds) would not fit.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Cecil was a Dark Knight when he did that, but I see the point you're trying to make.

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Yes but he was still the same character. Even as a Dark Knight he had his regrets for doing so. The point I was making was that the character is not defined by the role or the job. I am a human being, not a delivery guy. Delivering things is what I do, not who I am. Some people relish their jobs as their only form of identity when it's not the case. People and worthwhile characters are much more diverse and complicated than that.

This isn't a bash on XI or its system

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Originally Posted by Ronik

Since I have increasing doubts that you have any significant experience with FFXI, I'd prefer if you don't bring it up in your arguments. There is tremendous flexibility in the subjob system merely because of how valuable certain traits/abilities were in FFXI. A Sam/War would do considerably more damage than a Sam/Nin, but be far more fragile. A Sam/Thf would have great aggro control and great burst damage, but weaker sustained DPS and slower TP gain. In ANY example, the subjob significantly augments the performance of the base job. This leads to many meaningful choices. Do I want to do more raw DPS? Can my tank handle me going war sub? Should I play it safe and help my tank with threat with Thf sub? Should I go Nin sub to lessen the burden on the healers and keep myself alive? When soloing, Dnc sub or Nin sub?

I challenge you to find any class abilities in FFXIV which so fundamentally alter your gameplay experience the way subjobs did.

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That is a lop-sided challenge considering the content comparison between the two games is astronomical 22 Jobs versus 7 classes, of course the one with the higher number has more to work with. I still think that you're missing what I'm saying so I'll word it like this and use your examples. If XI's system played like XIV's then you wouldn't have to choose between DPS SAM, Utsusemi SAM, or Hate Control/Burst Damage SAM and you'd have the ability to have all of the above. You'd be able to do high burst damage with hate control and have high damage output and have shadows being able to be cast. And, again, that is a lop sided challenge considering the time that XI has been out and how long it's been developed and worked on and how much it has to offer. In other words, it has worlds more because it's been out longer. More jobs, more options, etc. All I'm saying, simply and to the point, is that I prefer this system because you have access to everything. All this illusion is just a lack of comparable content. If we were to copy and past all of the jobs from XI to XIV then we'd have SAM's that could SATA/Boost/Souleater weapon skills and Beserk/Focus/Last Resort for DPS all at once and have Utsusemi on. PLDs would be able to use Sentinel/Defender/Provoke/Perfect Counter/Chakra/Utsusemi all at once.

I'm not bashing the subjob system because it did revolutionize how the game was played and did indeed allow people more customizing options and flexibility in how they played their main jobs. But if I was on my SAM and someone told me, "You have two choices. You can either have just the skills from this other job here along with your own. Or, have all of the combat skills from all of your jobs plus your own." I think I know what I'd pick. But again, we can't do that with XIV yet because the jobs aren't there yet and it's still being worked on/fixed/tweaked.

Again, this isn't a bash on XI or its system because I am fully aware of how it impacted the game. And again I'll say this, I am fully in favor of a job system to go along-side the armory system; but not to replace. I am willing to admit and take a look at the job system for XI and am ready and willing to admit for that game it's fantastic. But this isn't XI and I don't think that XI's system should come to XIV and replace the system already in place.

I wanna see main/sub the ish just works lets you have a specialization with some resrticted versitility IDK why they wont use the main/sub method =/
Crap that method was perfect it let you have a specific role while giving some but not too much secondary ability options.
Plain and simple main/sub is much better then the damn mix and match crap that makes everyone able to use any skill

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Originally Posted by Shikyo

I wanna see main/sub the ish just works lets you have a specialization with some resrticted versitility IDK why they wont use the main/sub method =/
Crap that method was perfect it let you have a specific role while giving some but not too much secondary ability options.
Plain and simple main/sub is much better then the damn mix and match crap that makes everyone able to use any skill

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Because it's restricting... and old. I'd rather pick and choose my abilities from everything I've learned rather than be forced to play SAM/WAR. This is just how life works, you cannot and will not satisfy everybody. To each his own.

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I wanna see main/sub the ish just works lets you have a specialization with some resrticted versitility IDK why they wont use the main/sub method =/

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What they are doing will give just as much, if not more specialization. It's not as if there wasn't any restrictions in the main/sub method. Fact is, there is no need to go to a XI system. I will never get this inability to adapt to a new system for XIV when almost half of the FF titles has had a unique system that allowed pretty much any character to learn any abilities. this isn't that vastly different. Seriously. Mountain out of a molehill.

What if a Glad wants to do damage or back up tank? Then he can't be a paladin with offensive abilities.. the system is fine as it is right now. It allows for diversity among the classes, and jobs will allow for specialization and class uniqueness. What you are proposing requires a whole mess of convoluted changes that just aren't necessary, or even worth the effort to change.

Also it seems like we are gonna have less AP in the future when all skills are set to the bar auto, which has got me to think that we might have something like 25 ap @ max rank to cross class skills

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

you really think that archers still getting bard? lol it be funny and dumb if they do.

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Lol I would rage quit so fast you wouldnt believe.

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Originally Posted by KalaKenshu

What if a Glad wants to do damage or back up tank? Then he can't be a paladin with offensive abilities.. the system is fine as it is right now. It allows for diversity among the classes, and jobs will allow for specialization and class uniqueness. What you are proposing requires a whole mess of convoluted changes that just aren't necessary, or even worth the effort to change.

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Lemme know a GLA that does damage in any group situation in this game.

Don't worry, I'll wait.

- Kurokikaze

Or just stop the job system completely, re-do the classes and go from there. ATM the job system really doesn't sound so great, we with only like 6 classes that can become 6 jobs, there really isn't much customizability at all... Ever gladiator will become a paladin, they will all wear the same armor and use the same skills. It just kind of sounds dull. =/

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Originally Posted by Sovereign

Or just stop the job system completely, re-do the classes and go from there. ATM the job system really doesn't sound so great, we with only like 6 classes that can become 6 jobs, there really isn't much customizability at all... Ever gladiator will become a paladin, they will all wear the same armor and use the same skills. It just kind of sounds dull. =/

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In the end, after all the min-maxing is done... This outcome will always occur. Doesn't matter what system they use.

- Kurokikaze

Slightly off topic, but does anyone else think that THM > WHM and CON > BLM. Pre-1.18 when curaga and other raises were added this is where i thought they were going. THM deals with life and death vs CON deals with the elementals. Maybe its just me but the story lines seem to point it this way but now they have changed that idea with the addition of curaga and raise 2/3.

On Topic: I hope they change the job system to be somewhat like tactics, keeping the class system to level so you can unlike all the endgame jobs separately. LNC levels to 50 for DRG but to 75 and GLA to 50 to unlock Dragon Knight. The options could be enormous while keeping the basic solo/ small group playability of the class system.

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Originally Posted by Pnight

Slightly off topic, but does anyone else think that THM > WHM and CON > BLM. Pre-1.18 when curaga and other raises were added this is where i thought they were going. THM deals with life and death vs CON deals with the elementals. Maybe its just me but the story lines seem to point it this way but now they have changed that idea with the addition of curaga and raise 2/3.

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I also think that's the way it's going to work out. They will ask for community input and after it's all said and done; they will make THM the new dedicated healer and CON the nuker. It only makes sense if you go based of the lore.

Shuffling around abilities is a lot easier and faster than changing/rewriting lore to have it make sense.

- Kurokikaze

I had a idea a while ago of how I think SE can keep the armoury system, but remake it with the classical jobs. here the link.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Armoury-system

PROPOSAL

I think the job system needs a COMPLETE overhaul. Many people quit FFXI thinking FFXIV would bring something new to the table, other than mind-numbing animation spam, button-smashing, and the abomination that is the job system. The decision to re-examine job names was a first step in the right direction towards a newer and better FFXIV, and would have helped bring the game that much closer to what it should have been from the beginning. However, while feelings of nostalgia may have been a wonderful gift to the many Final Fantasy fans out there, it will never compensate for the horrific system that is in place now.

EXAMPLE

FFXI only allowed players to combine 2 jobs’ abilities, traits, and attributes; and only about half of the secondary job’s benefits were awarded by the combination. This meant players had to thoroughly evaluate each potential sub job for their main job, and decide what aspects of those choices were beneficial to them. This helped promote character and job uniqueness. For example, a DRG/DNC or DRG/WHM was an excellent choice for soloing, but less suitable for damage dealing. While on the other hand, a DRG/WAR or DRG/THF would be a prime combination for party play where healers are readily available, and damage is the only focus. In FFXIV, whether you’re a Conjurer, a Thaumertauge, an Archer, a Pugilist, or whatever else, you almost always have cure spells assigned, abilities/actions/traits from other classes, and perhaps even some “TP-moves” equipped: like "Second Wind," "Comrade in Arms," or "Trammel" for an easy 500tp weapon skill. This means everyone is spamming the same basic attacks, weapon skills, cures, and abilities as any other job, leaving only the "weapon in hand," and "job title" to distinguish what "class" someone is actually using. Because of the mass combination of class abilities, actions, and traits, no class is very unique -at all. Everyone capitalizes on various aspects of each job, and turns every class into a carbon-copy of the other.



In fact, most players will be hard-pressed to find themselves able to solo *without doing it. The game practically forces you to level every job, throwing uniqueness completely out the window. In FFXI, there were clear, distinct roles designated to each job. Red mage had magic, and great spells, so it debuffed mobs, and cured and buffed pt members (although, useful attk magic would have been nice, which, luckily THM brings to the table); Thief had high evasion and good hate-control abilities (Trick Attack, Collaborate, etc.), so it pulled monsters, and assisted tanks with maintaining hate, and so on. Players COULD make odd combinations of jobs if they wished, but most the time it rendered the jobs "gimp" and then they had trouble finding parties. XIV tried to remedy this issue, but took it to the extreme, and ended up causing even more problems. Now, any job can be effective in any way: as a tank, as a healer, as a damage dealer, as a puller, or anything they want to be. However, now they're forced to level, virtually, EVERY job to be good, instead of just the "right" job. Because of the current system, every job can play any role in any party. Nothing is unique about them but the "weapon they carry" and the "title they possess."

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Originally Posted by Ronik

I've been putting a lot of thought into this lately. We already know from developer letters and posts that a Job system is coming which will feature specialized combat roles. Once this system is implemented, there will be little to no reason to ever use a class role. Why would I play Gladiator when Paladin is better equipped to tank? Why even have the option to be a Marauder if I am fully expected to use Warrior in any and every combat situation? In short, the class system will go unused once we have access to jobs. Why should we bother keeping the class system in-game if it unnecessarily complicates things?

What I propose is the following:

A) All current classes are renamed as follows:

Gladiator → Paladin
Marauder → Warrior
Pugilist → Monk
Lancer → Dragoon
Thaumaturge → Black Mage
Conjurer → White Mage
Archer → Ranger

B) Class abilities are re-assigned as necessary. E.g. Black Mage would receive the nukes/debuffs from Conjurer, but the buff/heal spells would go to White Mage.

C) All references in-game to the previous classes are simply edited and updated. Guild names are updated, NPC references to classes are edited, etc.

I firmly believe that having a job-only system would be an improvement in every which way over the current plan of classes co-existing alongside jobs. For one, traditional job names are part of long-established "Final Fantasy" lore. This will make the game feel more familiar to all the FF fans out there. Secondly, I cannot fathom a single situation where we would want to be entering combat as a class rather than as a job.

The way I see it, the class system is a relic from the old-development direction of this game, and we no longer need it. I cannot see any cons to removing the class system. Cross-job abilities would need to be examined, but surely the cost of doing so is greatly compensated by the benefit of an elegant and simple system which, due to experience with FFXI, we KNOW will work.

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I think this myself, and the reason is this (Most likely):

EVERYONE THATS CAPPED @R50 ON ANY/EVERY CLASS WILL Q_Q AND RAGEMOAR/RAGEQUIT.

I pray every day for XI-2 to be announced. FFXI job/subjob system, with XIV's on-the-fly changability. Just keep abyssea the hell away from it.

They would have to throw away all the class quests if they renamed the classes. A PLD would never run around and cheer for the crowd. If they just leave the classes alone and add jobs, they have the option of adding multiple jobs per class later with expansions. In the world of FF, there have been classes that use the same weapons after all. Gladiator is a master of blades right? Why not give them pld AND sam. I really think con should get whm AND blm. Perhaps thm could have something like rdm and blu? (even though they use swords. idk.) Of course.. you'd have to switch between jobs... I haven't read most of this thread honestly. Surely someone has already said this.

I actually like the idea of having both jobs and classes. jobs are role specializations, and classes are weapon specializations. XIV has something truly unique here, and making it so we only have jobs is kind of a dumb down in my opinion.

Depending on the type of Gladiator you are, it might not be necessary to be a Paladin even in party situations. If I was a Gladiator and was invited to party that already has a Paladin why should I be a Paladin too? In this case I would remain a Gladiator and focus on DD and back up tanking. Same goes for Conjurer, if I'm a White Mage and we invited a conjurer, why should the player be a white mage too? The player should remain a Conjurer and focus on nuking or enfeebling(equiping Thm abilities) and Back up heal..

The marriage of Jobs, and the class system are Genius, it offers flexibility unlike any game especially when more jobs are unlocked per class. Your idea is not good and offers no flexibility.

Another example... a party has two archers, one changes to Bard and focuses on sub DD and Support, while the other stays as Archer and uses cross class abilities that Boosts his attack to focus on DD.

With your idea, there will be no point to have 2 bards, 2 paladins, or 2 white mages in a party so puting together parties would be difficult and would have people waiting. No thanks..

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Originally Posted by Pnight

Slightly off topic, but does anyone else think that THM > WHM and CON > BLM

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It might be more of a case of THM > BLM or WHM and CON > WHM or BLM. With a THM/WHM having different abilities than a CON/WHM and a THM/BLM again having access to different abilities to CON/BLM. And whats with everyone here thinking a job is linked to one class? Wasnt it said on here at one point its linked to one >weapon< not class. If i'm not mistaken you can carry around and swap between mutliple weapons of the same class, so a CON can carry around a staff linked to the BLM job and a wand linked to WHM job if they so chose.

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Originally Posted by Ronik

Conjurer → Sage

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Fixed.

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Originally Posted by Engineer

I actually like the idea of having both jobs and classes. jobs are role specializations, and classes are weapon specializations. XIV has something truly unique here, and making it so we only have jobs is kind of a dumb down in my opinion.

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I'm not sure if this idea was subtly "embedded" in your statement, but if this is what you meant, then this is an incredible idea: When players have access to jobs, they should not be restricted to certain weapons. The jobs should go back to the way they worked on XI: no interchangeable traits, abilities, or any other such nonsense (because it pretty much takes the fun out of every job) -can you imagine a SAM on XI that had TH2? or a WHM with Convert? (a.k.a. XI the way it is *now, which everyone pretty much agrees is awful); no mp on melee jobs; no ridiculous spamming of worthless low-dmg weapon skills; and for the love of god, no low level fools wearing armor 49 levels above their current one. There is nothing exciting about leveling now because of it. The whole point to leveling is to get stronger and higher, so that you *can equip awesome gear, and perform better. Some stupid a@@ penalty is not going to stop ppl from wearing stuff they can't use well. GET RID OF IT SE, NOW.....PLEASE

Damnit For the millionth time Use ffxi's mechanics as a BASE TO BUILD OFF! Everyone keeps bichin "We dont want FF11-2" but that what u hypocrites want.

I don't want to revisit FFXI, the armoury system allows me to pick the best skills from multiple classes, damn the game's elitist masses. :/
Jobs are not here to replace the armoury system, they're here to give you an alternate way to play. Right now Gladiators are the best choice in some casses for tanks, but a PLD job set, will make PLD better than Glad, offering Gladiators a chance to DD hopefully.

By also offering up skills that are class only (Like Curaga has become) that also gives classes individuality. We already have that with some skills like Speed Surge and Life Surge on Lancer.

Certainly we can mix and match skills, but a Cure from a Pugilist will never be the same as a cure from a Conjurer. Further more, with stats set per class that we're getting, that will be even more true. D:

Trying to restrict the game even more...You're nuts. It's the kind of lazy response I'd expect from someone without an ounce of imagination.

Also, the armoury system is currently tied to weapons. What they could do instead is offer up special kinds of that weapon to make builds more unique.
Enhanced (NOT glowing) swords, with INT traits to make better use of special MP based elemental TP skills. Making the Gladiator a fierce DD. We have some weapons like this in the game as it is, wands are better suited for Nuking it seems with the +% on certain elements.

I'd rather have unique, class based weapons over the complete destruction of the armoury system. D:

*Warning! The following post contains much Speculation and Assumption:

I think it is important to understand why they are implementing the Job System to better understand how it's (possibly) going to work.

A lot of peeps wanted more defining roles in a party and Class Specific Abilities (restricted) are the only way to achieve this.
They could have just made several of the existing abilities Class Specific Restricted but that would have hurt the solo/casual player tremendously so the only logical choice is to add abilities that are class specific restricted and also make these new abilities party-centric (these abilities are only useful in a party).

For example, Paladin uses abilities that enhance defense and hate control at the cost of damage dealing. Unless you like long drawn out fights (low sp per hr) you would not want to solo as a Paladin. Gladiator is a much better choice.

If the new Jobs come with Party-centric abilities at the cost of Damage Dealing abilities, few people would opt to use them for soloing. The "vanilla" jobs will always be superior for open-world content like timed leves, behest and solo-grinding.

As for Parties, we all seem to be forgetting that Full PT's have 8 players, yet there are only 7 classes/jobs so every pt will have repeat classes in them however, you normally only require 1 tank (paladin), 1 healer (Whm), 1 nuker (Blm), 1 enfeebler (Rdm), 1 buffer (Brd) and 1 DD (Mnk/DRk/Drg). That leaves 2 slots for either repeat jobs or for 2 additional DD Classes or 2 additional Vanilla Classes.

How it's all implemented we will soon find out but my gut feelings and observations are that the Dev Team is trying very hard to expand our choices rather than limit them. Always remember though, It is not SE's responsibility to create classes/jobs that fit our playstyle, it is our choice to play a class/job that fits our playstyle and/or the needs of a PT.

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Originally posted by Carzilla

Damnit For the millionth time Use ffxi's mechanics as a BASE TO BUILD OFF! Everyone keeps bichin "We dont want FF11-2" but that what u hypocrites want.

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I'm certainly no hypocrite. I DO want XI-2. And, actually, regardless of how much you all deny it....that's what this was designed to be. They have the same damn races; they use the same composer for a lot of the music; they have many of the same jobs -just with different names and horrible mechanics; and they HAD the same fan-base 'til they released it prematurely. Thank God they got Yoshi. Maybe it WILL turn into XI-2. Just because it's a "sequel," doesn't mean it has to be a carbon-copy of it's predecessor. Look at FFX-2. Aside from the shitty party line-up, it was a great example of how to make a "sequel." It was very different from FFX, but it was still great. FFXIV is very different from XI, but in all the wrong ways. Get the picture, dude?

Dang, i just wrote up a thread stating pretty much the same thing just a few mins ago haha.

I agree completely with OP. I just hate the idea of keeping classes and think it's completely redundant and really is just a relic of the past they are holding onto.

Bring back the Traditional jobs as they always have been in all FF's and add subjobs onto it to address cross class issue.
It works, its fun.

Im very troubled with this plan, i think it's a wrong decision. It just doesn't feel or sound right and will only cause further complications when it could very simplified and fun.

I hope they take this thread seriously!

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Originally posted by Gennosuke

Bring back the Traditional jobs as they always have been in all FF's and add subjobs onto it to address cross class issue.

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I felt the exact same way as you 'til I read this post:

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Originally posted by Engineer

Depending on the type of Gladiator you are, it might not be necessary to be a Paladin even in party situations. If I was a Gladiator and was invited to party that already has a Paladin why should I be a Paladin too? In this case I would remain a Gladiator and focus on DD and back up tanking. Same goes for Conjurer, if I'm a White Mage and we invited a conjurer, why should the player be a white mage too? The player should remain a Conjurer and focus on nuking or enfeebling(equiping Thm abilities) and Back up heal..

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In that sense, it would be great, but ONLY under these conditions: Jobs, absolutely, MUST go back to having no weapon restrictions and the sub-job style for class-trait/ability crossovers. The jobs should, also, drastically outperform their class counterparts. That way, if, for example, you have a friend who lvl'd THM turned RDM , but you already have a party with enough healers/debuffers, you don't have to turn them away. They can join the pt as THM, and still be "relatively" effective....a.k.a. contribute significantly, but not so much that they overpower any other jobs -do good dmg, but not as good as the melee/nuker *jobs; cure/enfeeb/buff well, but not as well as the mage *jobs, etc.

I'm not going to pass judgment on the proposed addition of jobs until there is more information, but I do like the armory system as it is. The current classes just need some more specific abilities to help set them apart from each other.

As to the comments regarding the FFXI job/subjob being really flexible, it really wasn't. There is a reason all the melee were /war, /thf, /nin, /sam, and why all the mages were /whm or /blm, and rarely /smn. Outside of soloing, or needing of things like chainspell+stun, very few other setups worked. If the system was truly flexible you would of seen things like blm/war in parties later on. There were very few abilities that transferred over to other jobs well.

If I wanted to play XI I would play..oh wait I do still play it and I love the job system it has and would not want it anyone other way. I feel for XIV the class/job system should keep going the way it is intended, theres no reason for a main/sub system in XIV its its own game, heck we dont even know how the new system will be and thats what makes me laugh when I see everyone complaining about it..ITS NOT EVEN OUT YET nor do we have any SOLID INFO about it.

why would i want to pay for essentially 2 games that are suppose to be different but would end up being basically the same(yea i know there will be a discount if you play both games but still)

everyone is entitled to there own opinion and I respect that 100% I just dont understand why people want the same exact game with better graphics IMO

Hey Bass9020, I know it's pretty dumb to quote yourself, but I'm sure you don't wanna scroll through the entire thread, so let me just show you a little....

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Just because it's a "sequel," doesn't mean it has to be a carbon-copy of it's predecessor. Look at FFX-2. Aside from the shitty party line-up, it was a great example of how to make a "sequel." It was very different from FFX, but it was still great. FFXIV is very different from XI, but in all the wrong ways.

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FFXIV has way too much in common with XI to not be considered "XI-2." That's what it is, technically; it's just not a well-made "sequel" is all. People don't want the same game with better graphics. They want a "new game" with the same *mechanics. The leveling system in FFX was the absolute best one I've ever seen in rpgs. The sphere-grid was absolutely perfect, but for some reason it was never re-introduced. Why? Because people, like you (no offense), think that ANYTHING linking 2 games together, no matter how trivial, makes it "dull" and "unoriginal." That is far from the truth. FFXIV brought a lot of good to the table, but it failed MISERABLY with the current class system. There needs to be some kind of format similar to XI. FFXI's job system was the "sphere grid" of it's genre, imo.

Oh they released Jobs already? I didn't even see any notes yet on them besides they are coming and a few tidbits of not much information. An opinion of the idea of jobs is fine. When people are bashing it before they even try it and saying how it can do this and can't do that and is only for situation A or B is kinda jumping the gun a bit. Don't ya think?

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Hey Bass9020, I know it's pretty dumb to quote yourself, but I'm sure you don't wanna scroll through the entire thread, so let me just show you a little....



FFXIV has way too much in common with XI to not be considered "XI-2." That's what it is, technically; it's just not a well-made "sequel" is all. People don't want the same game with better graphics. They want a "new game" with the same *mechanics. The leveling system in FFX was the absolute best one I've ever seen in rpgs. The sphere-grid was absolutely perfect, but for some reason it was never re-introduced. Why? Because people, like you (no offense), think that ANYTHING linking 2 games together, no matter how trivial, makes it "dull" and "unoriginal." That is far from the truth. FFXIV brought a lot of good to the table, but it failed MISERABLY with the current class system. There needs to be some kind of format similar to XI. FFXI's job system was the "sphere grid" of it's genre, imo.

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Well said!

I find it more ironic that people don't criticize the fact that we have identical races of FFXI but then complain about core features which would hold much more value when "copied" across from predecessors. I mean honestly speaking, i was hoping for new races, new looks, even new job system. They ended up replicating the races with different names which is rather sad and unoriginal since it's not XI-2 but then came with a fail class system instead of bringing the goodness of job system from XI.

I'm all up for change, but so long as it's successful and fun.
I think they are finally heading in the right direction with introducing jobs back into the game, but i just really feel they need to abolish the class system as pointed out by OP. It's just redundant, i see no serious justification for it. If anything, it will only serve to hinder the new job system or vice versa.