Don't tell me what to do!

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I won't even get into how your statement is wrong because the point is pretty much completely moot.

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Let's review the conversation:

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

you have no right to tell anyone how to play.

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Originally Posted by ManweSulimo

Unfortunately you do by the first amendment.

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Hopefully that answers your question as to why it was brought up. Maybe that person isn't in the US so it might not apply to them personally but it certainly applies to a large percentage of the people that play this game and most likely an even larger percentage of the people reading this forum.

You don't need to get into how the statement is wrong because it isn't. And the point isn't moot. Anybody has every right to tell anyone how to play a game. Does that make it a good thing? No. Does that make it welcome to the other person or anyone else in the party? Not necessarily. Might it have a positive impact? Not likely but possibly. I would think it would be a huge waste of the Japanese government's money to prosecute anyone for telling someone else how to play a game.

However my friend, we are all three on the same side in the end anyways. Just because someone has a right to say whatever they want doesn't mean they should. I agree with you that nobody should tell anyone how to play. And I personally use your exact procedure in dealing with the issue :)

Helping someone out with advice is usually good but as others have said, some will always interpret it poorly no matter how positive you phrase it. With random groups I just think... Can we live with them playing like that? If yes then I don't say anything as it isn't worth the effort.

To the OP's question of someone being a jerk... Vote kick ASAP. I don't have time to deal with those types. You don't need to argue with them, explain to them that they are a jerk, start a flame war, etc. just remove them.

If someone is being a jerk to me or people in my party, I'll usually get vocal on them. There are nice ways to get your point across, use them.

If they continue to act like asshats, I try and votekick them and if that doesn't happen, I'll leave because it's not worth it being with asses like them to begin with.

I pay $15 a month for this game and I still enjoy the storyline even after running through it multiple times, I DO NOT regret it, but seeing people like them kills my enjoyment bif time.

It really all depends on the situation and by that I mean:

1) The content in question that they are doing with me
2) Attitude in which the person in question is giving

If the content is easy enough that any type of gameplay would be fine. I will not say a word ( I normally don't say much anyways lol)
If the content is hard enough that warrants a degree of skill that the class needs changing, I may speak up ( again I don't normally speak much)
If the content is really hard ( like Coil) complete focus of said Job is required. Because if one doesn't focus on their job in this content it makes the rest of the party suffer. ( Highly likely to say something at this point).

Most of the time though as long as they are "somewhat" playing their job correctly, I won't say a thing as long as we don't wipe 10 times because of it.

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Originally Posted by Donarudo

Not trying to be rude here (American as well) but there is no place for the American Constitution in an international forum. Some people myself included can view this as short sighted and rude for even mentioning. My apologies if I seem abrupt in the shortness of this post.

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NP, I wasnt saying this myself (Japansee) I was replying to another posted comment on this page. "A little Tongue in Cheek on my part"

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

NP, I wasnt saying this myself (Japansee) I was replying to another posted comment on this page. "A little Tongue in Cheek on my part"

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Thank you for the reply back, and np. Take care.

In my humble opinion, for "suboptimal play" you can offer some advices (and please be polite when doing this), but the player doesn't have to agree.

If a player is playing wrong and causing troubles to the party, I tell him (or her) the problem and I give some advice ("please attack the nail or the party will be wiped"). But constant harrassment it's not acceptable.

And there is a big difference between "playing suboptimal" and "playing wrong".

You play suboptimal when you don't use your skills in best possible way. For example: as Thaumaturge stay unnecessarily in Umbral Ice stance. A dungeon may get harder or slower, but is still doable without major hindrances.

You play wrong when you don't use your primary skills at all or very rarely or ignore a key boss mechanic . For example: a Thaumaturge that never use Fire or a DPS that never attack the Infernal Nail during Ifrit trial. A dungeon will get harder and slower, and maybe cause one or more wipes.

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Originally Posted by Coldheart

If a player is playing wrong and causing troubles to the party, I tell him (or her) the problem and I give some advice ("please attack the nail or the party will be wiped"). But constant harrassment it's not acceptable.

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Problem is there are too many cases where the player either ignores any advice and "still doesn't attack the nail" (using that as an example of ignoring mechanics that will probably wipe the party) either because they don't care or they select a language they don't understand for a first time run thus explanations fall on deaf ears.

In the game you usually cannot help other people how to play unless they are in the FC or on your friends list imo. It is just really awkward to start writing in party chat to another player who is basically a stranger to you and start giving them "advice". There are too many times where people think that they are awesome at games and will not take advice because they believe that they are awesome at games.

The best bet imo, is to give them a small, subtle hint and if they do not take it then you give up on trying to help them with a rotation on dps or tanking/healing better. People do not listen if they do not want to listen. Give it a subtle and polite try; if it works great, if it doesn't... well you tried.

The title of the OP though is a very ignorant response to constructive criticism however and I believe it should be changed to reflect the mood of the thread. Something like, "Helping strangers in DF with their role, is it okay?" or something like that. "Don't tell me what to do!" is ignorant and the worst response a person can have for constructive criticism, it suggests that you are perfect and there is nothing you can do to make yourself even more perfect.

what always enters my my mind, and one of you guys can explain, is how do you know?
sure it's pretty easy to tell if dps is generically slow by how many times a boss's mechanics loop or if you're hitting an enrage timer, but how do you know which dps is at fault and at which point in their rotation they are going wrong?

I personally don;t have a keen eye and I'm concentrating on what I'm doing rather than watching what other people are doing.

is it just watching the debuffs/buffs that appear in the party window? I generally keep my mouth shut but often just wanna bark "how about you worry about your own rotation that worrying about theirs" when i see this happening

that said, if you are going to give advice always explain why something should be done different. generally will go down a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

what always enters my my mind, and one of you guys can explain, is how do you know?

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During the dungeon, I was very much thinking the same thing Yukariko. We were doing AK (the first one, old easy one) and the Black Mage was using Flare as part of his combo. The ninja kept saying "Stop using Flare! It uses all your mp!". I was thinking "I am pretty sure the Black Mage knows what his spells do."

Also during the dungeon, I did speak up but not about specifically in defense of the Black Mage. I made small talk and general conversation to change the subject and bring humor to the dungeon. When the Ninja started nagging, I would say silly things like "Only combo I know is Holy Holy Holy o/" and stuff of that nature. I didn't want the Black Mage to feel bad and I also didn't want to bring confrontation to the dungeon by blasting the rude Ninja.

I have to admit when im on my main job ( which is WHM ), i tend to be a diva. I literally have power of life and death over others players so you better do everything you can to keep me pleased.

When im on DF and you do any "lolnub" comment about me i disapprove, i simply stop doing any action right away and go AFK.

If i need advices ( on a new instance strat for example ) don't worry i'll let you know about it.
Until i ask anything, you better keep your mouth shut especially when you don't even have a WHM at 50.

I know im not the best WHM out there but tbh i rarely get any criticism.
I occasionally get one ofc but its either by new players who started the game 2 days ago and "know the game better than me" or from ppl who never touched the WHM job in their Mogdamn life.

I do see alot of ppl raging about BLM biased rotation though and ofc Tanks.

PS: In the other hand if you say your criticism in a constructive manner i welcome it, andi will discuss it with you.

No matter how fast you are, or how well you play, or how experienced you may be, someone somewhere will find something wrong with it. If the crystal tower quest line has taught me anything, it's that people love to complain and bicker no matter what. Are you new? Too bad, should've had it done the moment the server came up. Missed a proc? You can't pay attention. Have a differing opinion? Too bad, yours is wrong and will not be held for consideration. They can be rather selfish, rude, and full of themselves. To a lot of these people, you are a mere plebeian or NPC who just happens to be along for the ride in their quest for the ultimate item level score. Which is why when I tank, I may "accidentally" lose aggro. My bad.

...... it's not all bad though. Keep your head high, and stick up for your fellow man/woman. Worse comes to worst, kick them if you can. Nobody has any right to tell someone how to play.

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Originally Posted by Ryock

To a lot of these people, you are a mere plebeian or NPC who just happens to be along for the ride in their quest for the ultimate item level score.

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I won't lie by saying that some times, this is indeed how i see people.
Especially when doing low level DR. :(

Bad people will be bad. Simply put. And they'll get on their high horse about it too.

I remember the time I asked a SCH "Hey mate, quick tip here, if you can succor the group and adlo the tank pre-pull, it'll cut down a lot on early damage :)"

This was while tanking a boss so I didn't have the most time to write out a full message. What I got in return was "Don't need to be an jerk about it. Especially when giving bad advice."

Then his friend proceeded to say " u mad" when I said it was a friendly tip.

Some people cannot be saved by their own stupidity.

Here's a rule a thumb I normally take. When dealing with strangers (*cough cough* DF), ask first.

If someone else comments on my DF play style during roulette, I just...well don't care. I'm notorious for not paying attention when I'm on my BLM, I go down to ~100 MP with my fires before going to blizzard 3, transpose early, forget second tick after a flare, scathe 2-3x trying to kill a mob, it just goes on. If I see it happen to someone else, I generally get some popcorn. I'll say something if it gets out of hand though. After all, everyone in there just wants to finish the dungeon.

Anything outside of roulette, sure I'll pay attention. The problem is that roulette is such a snoozefest that I don't want to utilize brain power for the extra DPS.

Constructive criticism is generally welcome, but it shouldn't be jammed down the other person's throat. If they don't heed your advise, leave them alone. If you really can't stand it, just leave and take a break.

B

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

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TBH I conciously dont do this during a lot of 4man runs because my fairy can keep the tank up (and I'm in cleric the whole time) and there isn't any AOE damage in the next 30 sec.

When I know the content I may opt to not do something that is technically the most efficient way due to knowing ahead of time it isn't needed. In that case it's a concious decision and probably would just respond that it isn't needed In this case. (Your annecdote may have been a time where it was helpful... Not arguing that point)

for me this is simple.. if we are moving thru the dungeon and not wiping every five seconds I don't really care how you play or what you do in terms of rotation spells pulls agro and what not. we clear it I am good. now if a player is totally keeping med from getting to the end.. I will just say I am out and leave and get or find someone who is better. I never see a need to dog anyone over anything. we are all playing a game to have fun. take away my fun I will move on. I believe in one simple rule when it comes to this kinda stuff. live and let live. easy. it is not my job to tell others how they should play. if a blm can help me get to the end by spamming bliz2 then by all mean spam away. but if it gets me killed over and over.. then sorry I am out.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

B

TBH I conciously dont do this during a lot of 4man runs because my fairy can keep the tank up (and I'm in cleric the whole time) and there isn't any AOE damage in the next 30 sec.

When I know the content I may opt to not do something that is technically the most efficient way due to knowing ahead of time it isn't needed. In that case it's a concious decision and probably would just respond that it isn't needed In this case. (Your annecdote may have been a time where it was helpful... Not arguing that point)

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Oh no doubt it's not needed. But it's not a BAD tip. Succor > Adlo pre pull is just the norm for SCH's to do. Apparently, in this guys book, it's the wrong thing to do.

I would usually just tell the person doing the hounding to not get their panties in a bunch and that the "victim" is doing an okay job. not everyone is perfect.

Thou..normally the "panties in a bunch" comment normally pisses off pplz lol

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Originally Posted by Ryock

Nobody has any right to tell someone how to play.

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I had a SMN in Amdapor Keep HM today. This summoner was by nearly any reasonable account not doing her job, they flubbed mechanics that had been repeatedly explained to them and constantly died to easily avoidable attacks. No one had the guts to speak up and tell this person how poor their performance was or even give them advice, this continued the entire dungeon to the point that by the 4th wipe on the last boss I simply could not continue wasting my mp to raise them. I had to step in and take her place as a dps as well as continue my own role as healer. This is the kind of players you create as a community when you decide nobody has the right to speak up or criticize, and I sincerely hope each and every person echoing this sentiment in this thread gets partied with them every time their duties pop.

I don't mind being informed new ideas or how to do something. Now what irks me is like, for example, during this Battle in the Big Keep fight I'm main tanking and this offtank tells me to move Greg away from the chained person so I do it. Then the next 3 times Greg chains someone, "move him away!!" "Move him away!!!" Like ok I'm doing it on my own I don't need frequent reminders after you told me the first time.

That is my personal peeve. I can only endure it for so long before I tell the person to stfu or I intentionally do the opposite of what I'm being told.

No wipes- No words from me (regardless how said person plays)
1 wipe- It happens, lets try it again ( and also observe the people around me)
2 wipes- Locate the problem that is causing said wipe, if its not the content but a person's playstyle, kindly suggest to the person your advice.
3rd-5th wipes- Letting the person adjust to said advice (or not it doesn't matter, play how you want I suppose)
6th wipe- Vote Abandon/leave since the party isn't going anywhere.

If I do say anything it's only once, if I don't see progression within the content, I will simply leave.

When I started leveling summoner I was still an arcanist in Haukke manor or it might have been the one before that.
The tank told me in a very nice way that "You can dot up all the mobs before casting ruin"
And I did and that was that, its not like I'd get mad about someone helping me out.

Something that drives me crazy is black mages that don't know their rotation.
I had this one who started his rotation with blizzard 1->blizzard 1->Blizzard 3-> transpose ->fire 1 ->fire 1-> fire1... ->transpose... and repeat
I didn't say anything because I am a nice person, but inside I wanted to scream at him to at least read the text that comes with the traits and abilities.

This guy had novus and was at least ilvl 115..

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

Something that drives me crazy is black mages that don't know their rotation.
I had this one who started his rotation with blizzard 1->blizzard 1->Blizzard 3-> transpose ->fire 1 ->fire 1-> fire1... ->transpose... and repeat

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what about the ones that start the fight with flare right of the bat? :D

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

I intentionally do the opposite of what I'm being told.

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I'll never ever understand this mindset. You're going to respond to a single person harassing you by just being outright bad and punishing the 6 people that had absolutely nothing to do with the problem. Way to act like an adult.

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Originally Posted by Silkerin

what about the ones that start the fight with flare right of the bat? :D

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Haha I had one of those in Castrum, he had just hit level 50 I assumed.

Flare-> Wait until fire stance is gone -> wait for mana -> freeze freeze freeze-> flare

Couldn't help it I laughed

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Originally Posted by Starlord

No wipes- No words from me (regardless how said person plays)
1 wipe- It happens, lets try it again ( and also observe the people around me)
2 wipes- Locate the problem that is causing said wipe, if its not the content but a person's playstyle, kindly suggest to the person your advice.
3rd-5th wipes- Letting the person adjust to said advice (or not it doesn't matter, play how you want I suppose)
6th wipe- Vote Abandon/leave since the party isn't going anywhere.

If I do say anything it's only once, if I don't see progression within the content, I will simply leave.

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If you think something like, for example, a coil learning group can clear in less than 6 wipes you are delusional at best, and an asshole at worst.

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Originally Posted by TheTower

You are much, much worse than they are.

The people telling you what to do are at least trying to win the fight. You are just sperging out and ruining the game for everyone.

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I would never do what Elusana is doing, because defending myself is something I haven't been able to do! However, Tank A already knows what to do but Tank B is Yelling at the person to do exactly what she has been doing. Yes I don't blame her to go and do the reverse. Yes it's not the Adult thing to do, but if said person keeps on doing it, outbursts do happen.

I'll just have popcorn on 1 hand and playing with the other :P.

Trolling and Shitty advice aside,

If you are not playing your job correctly or to it's fullest extent, then you should improve yourself. Take advice people give you on rotations. When I first got to 50 as BLM in 2.0, I didn't realize that you should cast Fire 3 only to get the 3 stack and on firestarter procs. Someone corrected me when we were downing Ultima and I switched to it pumping out way more damage. I don't understand this "I WANT TO PLAY MY WAY" notion when your playing a game where teamwork matters. I was greatly thankful of that person and I always take advise from other players who are probably more experienced than me on jobs I don't play much. It just shocks me players would rather play their job badly than at their best. I guess it's a "my way is the best way" thing?

An example I recall was a warrior in Stone Vigil. After wiping the group a few times due to patrols, I told him he should use tomahawk to pull the adds to him, so he can tank them safely. He didn't respond, and refused to use it, face pulling the mobs. After the 4th time me and the others started to get agitated and all of us kept repeating to him to throw tomahawk or we will keep dying. Finally he told us not to tell him how to play. Like... wtf? Why would you rather wipe over and over than progress and do better? I just don't understand.

Than again, FFXIV ARR shoves the "you don't need to care about other people" idea in your face from the get go (easy soloing, no commitment to other players thanks to DF, etc) so much I am not surprised people treat the game like a singleplayer game.

I'm gonna tell you a story:

I have a lvl 50 WHM and SMN, been playing ever since the beta and I can say safely that FFXIV is 100% my "main" game, the one I play most of the time I'm at home.

Now, I have a fiancée. She was NOT a gamer when I met her, she only played a bit of 2D games and facebook stuff like candy crush. She got really interested on FFXIV as it would be something we could do as a couple (like being on a static together), and she also liked the story and felt fascinated about the idea of living out a character in a big world. Oh, and the Eternal Bond also got her excited, heh. Anyhow, she got really into it, she loves her character and she even wants to cosplay Kan-E-Senna eventually. I started to level a PLD so we could play together while she's leveling up. She's a MNK - yeah, cuz fuck stereotypes =P She said at the occasion that she wanted a character that is strong and "slaps the shit out of stuff"(sic). heheh. Gotta love that girl =P

Anyhow, I'm deviating from the main point... we were playing together and it was all fine and dandy, I'd queue as tank with her and we'd get short queue times, and I tend to be a very easy going tank. Now, she got really excited about the game and started playing alone too (she's on vacation). Now... yesterday she was talking to me about how much bitching she had to put up with and how that got her really sad and dismotivated to continue playing the game. Now, as I was saying, she was NOT a gamer, she is NOT used to 3D games, she's still getting used to controlling the camera in a 3D environment. Also, I used to mark targets to help her know what to attack, something very few tanks do (altough I think they should, it ALWAYS helps a lot)

Now, bear in mind, she's just lvl 17 with her main class. She even has the sprout icon besides her name. Do people really need to be rude and tell her to "attack something, bitch" while she's trying to adjust her camera and appears still to other players? or votekick her because she was being left behind every pull cuz of the obnoxiously irritated tank who wants to speedrun every dungeon?

I'm on the verge of losing her (as in, she's almost giving up on the game) because of those kinds of attitudes. Way to go, community. Way. To. Go.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

I'm on the verge of losing her (as in, she's almost giving up on the game) because of those kinds of attitudes. Way to go, community. Way. To. Go.

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"You don't need to care about other people" goes both ways sadly. You can be an asshole from the get-go and get away with it too since you'll never see the DF mates anyway. Funny enough, same time level 50 when Haukke Hard Mode first came out... I had a warrior who kept verbally abusing me about DPS when he himself was the issue (could tank more than two adds for first boss). Even going "why don't you have your relic scrub" when Titan HM was the "hard" dungeon at the time.

My wife as a tank, not the best but really not the worst. she plays WAR and WHM and she can see when she plays WHM how bad some tanks can be.

So on that note. If someone points something out she is doing wrong in a rude manor or info you would only know from a parser she just stops attack.
If it's really bad Vote kick happens.

On a site note, we did a run with someone from our FC and DF the last space well that person was just a jerk near the beginning of the run and got kicked just before the final boss.

She plays to have fun not to be harassment by people she will never see again.

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Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow

My wife as a tank, not the best but really not the worst. she plays WAR and WHM and she can see when she plays WHM how bad some tanks can be.

So on that note. If someone points something out she is doing wrong in a rude manor or info you would only know from a parser she just stops attack.

She plays to have fun not to be harassment by people she will never see again.

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Isn't that a bit... childish? While the dude who was giving me shit was annoying, I'm not going to ruin the run for the other 2 people in the group.