Speed Running Is Getting Out of Hand

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Siding with seaf here. Q'ing as Heals in Ex Dfs with speed runners sucks, If you have just came home from Work/school and wanna just run a nice relaxing DF.

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I see what you are saying, but if you want a relaxing run, do High level or Low lvl. EX currently is for quick tomes due to everyone wanting to get done asap for them to NOT see their item drop, lol. I don't like it either, but I do it. On tank, on heals on DPS. I get my daily bonus quicker so I can move on to other stuff.

What was said earlier though about heals controlling the pace as well is spot on. I do my best to keep up, but if I can't, first to notice is the tank and adjustments are made.

Haha reminds me when tanks go gung ho with a monk and a nin.
Tht awkward moment when tank dies and you as a healer go,
Uh oh.. Peaceeee itttttt!
Then everyone runs around like headless chicken till everyone dies.
Its worse when ppl run back to base spawn and make the mobs aggro non stop to freshly spawned players. Think brayflox hm failed speed runs XD.

For my case, I actually could hardly stand doing slow pace for dungeon runs. Kinda stresses me doing things too slow. Having to redo AV & Dzemael for zodiac farm alone are tiresome process for me. ^^;

And don't really under-estimate DD jobs, they can SR too as long as they knew what to do. I had a dual nin (with me being one), and we can pull it off just fine. ^^

Still, I do respect ppl who actually wanted to do normal runs. Doesn't mean I enjoyed it though. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

I believe this was me lol... This is vaguely familiar and I had a blast with whatever team I was on. Your name looks familiar too!

Not that I am a "fresh" 50 healer, I but my ilvl was 100 WHM.
If this was not you, then I ran it with another tank that I believe was in Allagan gear, but I swear it was your name. I too was there for Zodiac weapon.

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Nah, the guy I was speaking of was definitely a fresh 50. AF geared and less than 3K HP. However, you probably did run with me another time. Ive spammed Copper a bunch lately ^^

Personally, I think its more a problem of player courtesy more than anything else. When I tank, I always ask if the group is more comfortable with large or normal pulls. And if they say they dont want to run fast, then I take it one group at a time.

So I'm surprised that so many people dont listen to their group. Especially their healer, if they tell you they need you to slow down youd best listen...

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Originally Posted by Synestr

I see what you are saying, but if you want a relaxing run, do High level or Low lvl. EX currently is for quick tomes due to everyone wanting to get done asap for them to NOT see their item drop, lol. I don't like it either, but I do it. On tank, on heals on DPS. I get my daily bonus quicker so I can move on to other stuff.

What was said earlier though about heals controlling the pace as well is spot on. I do my best to keep up, but if I can't, first to notice is the tank and adjustments are made.

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Doesn't matter the roulette to be honest this is really common amongst even the lowest of dungeons, mostly roulettes. There's already a thread similar to this to this one already "Do tanks always rush"

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Originally Posted by Black91CRX

Nah, the guy I was speaking of was definitely a fresh 50. AF geared and less than 3K HP. However, you probably did run with me another time. Ive spammed Copper a bunch lately ^^

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Oh ok. I still believe that day I ran with you as tank.

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Originally Posted by Darske

Personally, I think its more a problem of player courtesy more than anything else. When I tank, I always ask if the group is more comfortable with large or normal pulls. And if they say they dont want to run fast, then I take it one group at a time.

So I'm surprised that so many people dont listen to their group. Especially their healer, if they tell you they need you to slow down youd best listen...

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I 150% agree and preached this in the thread I quoted above.

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Originally Posted by Darske

Personally, I think its more a problem of player courtesy more than anything else. When I tank, I always ask if the group is more comfortable with large or normal pulls. And if they say they dont want to run fast, then I take it one group at a time.

So I'm surprised that so many people dont listen to their group. Especially their healer, if they tell you they need you to slow down youd best listen...

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Thank you for saying this. From a healers point of view. I always ask my groups to go mid speed. I feel this is a nice middle of the road speed and I can heal,the tank lives and the dps can dps. Wiping 5 times is a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Darske

Personally, I think its more a problem of player courtesy more than anything else. When I tank, I always ask if the group is more comfortable with large or normal pulls. And if they say they dont want to run fast, then I take it one group at a time.

So I'm surprised that so many people dont listen to their group. Especially their healer, if they tell you they need you to slow down youd best listen...

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thank you from another healer.
I can heal anything I have unlocked in this game, coil, extreme primals, I even prefer to heal most coil turns and most primals, but sadly I no longer heal dungeons with random players, cos while I can heal a speed run, I hate it. it's just too damn stressful to have it all put on me.

"dungeons are easy" tanks/dps often say, well no, they're only easy cos a healer is working their arse of keeping you alive after you pull 2 dozen mobs at once.

As a PLD who does like to speedrun and pull as much as possible I try not to get ahead of myself, I knew which cooldowns are up and I know how much healing our WHM/SCH can do.

Obviously I'll slow down if the healer has difficulties keeping up, sooo..OP probably just met a bunch of really bad Tanks.

I can't even remember when the last time was that I whiped on any dungeon roulette.

Being a tank myself, i didn't know it was an issue. I always start low, with small pulls and go bigger. First thing i watch is my members HP, that gives an hint of their current i-level. Also, it depends of the set up. What is the point of going SR when you got a nin + BRD as DPS. I don't see BRD being that good on AoEs. As for Nin AoEs... well, we all know they suckaga IV at it. I'd suggest making a macro that would say "ok Tank, please, don't overpull, my current i-level is too low to support big heals in here". So even if your gear-level is fine, you just step on your pride. IT's DF anyway, right ? so.. i mean, who cares ?

As a tank, I've always enjoyed speed pulling, mostly because it is the only way to make otherwise boring dungeon encounters challenging. I also think its fun to push fellow players to the limits of their job and player capabilities. Sometimes we make it, sometimes we don't, no big deal. If we don't, I just hold back on the pulls.

Honestly if people are tired of speed running, maybe something needs to be done to make enemy encounters more interesting. Gating off the dungeon does not really seems like an answer. I always thought that replacing the large amounts of trash mobs with fewer, more power mobs similar to mini-bosses could be an interesting way to mix things up.

Some might not like this idea, but how about taking a cue from some of the Coil mechanics? Like the slug/slimes in T6 - have mobs that would prey on each other if you let them and they'd get stronger? Not party-wipe stronger, but enough to really pose a greater challenge if you let it happen. Or ones like the sons/daughters in T10 that need to be kept at a distance from their same kind or they get buffed? It might not be fair to party compositions, but there could be enemies that are more resistant to physical or magic damage, and I liked what Hullbreaker did with the bear traps. First time I saw them, I thought "I wonder if I can trap something in it?" Sure enough, I could.

I think no matter what they do with mechanics we're going to get used to it and want to speed through it eventually. Now what could freshen things up is if they randomized the mobs you fight, put them in different places, different mobs from a set pool, different groups of mobs.

And they can all cast {Banish} III which can not be stunned (but can be silenced). {Banish} IV or V if two or more mobs are standing next to each other (pull wisely).

The absolute WORST is quick queue tanks that have crap for gear and still try to do these pulls... and they can't even hold hate off of the healer.

I don't mind them as much, but in my opinion, they need to increase the difficulty of the dungeons so that not just boss mobs are "dangerous".

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Ah, but what if you include trash mobs that all have AoE's with DoTs (and unavoidable vulnerability down) and a 'Banish III'?

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Tank and stunners are responsible to mark these targets to kill first, and interrupt the casting of threatening moves. It is simple to do alone as a PLD, with enough practice.

And dancing around aoes is super easy to do, system permitting. If im playing on my console or laptop ill do smaller pulls for reaction safety. That said, I will never pull just one pack unless a barrier denies me more adds.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

And they can all cast {Banish} III which can not be stunned (but can be silenced). {Banish} IV or V if two or more mobs are standing next to each other (pull wisely).

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Um, I stun it just fine in Pharos against corrupted sprites, so it isn't the spell that cannot be stunned, maybe the mob type?

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Originally Posted by Synestr

I see what you are saying, but if you want a relaxing run, do High level or Low lvl.

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High Level relaxing? The same one with Pharos, ten thousand zombies, two with vulnerability up, two with Banish III? I just mentioned two really dangerous enemies because that's what tanks do now - two pulls. One per boss. Haukke? Same deal: three pulls. Brayflox? The name is enough. Amdapor? Can be, but I usually find PLD with 4k HP so it's not happening a lot -not that some don't actually try...- and I could go on with the list. Low level is the only relaxing one - that is, unless you find a derp tank in Aurum who feels like speedrunning and proceeds to pull everything in the first room, or a tank in Dzemael who needs zodiac drops. High level, though? I'm still speedrunning. I don't even dislike speedruns, because I find dungeons too slow-paced, but it's not that hard to find lately those who expects you to make them immortal while staying in 3-4 AOEs with no cooldowns and just slightly decent gear. It's just...stupid. It's a waste of time if you don't know how to use the class.

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Originally Posted by Gorvi

Let me start by saying I don't mind a speed run, especially speedrunning old content that everyone is overgeared for. When I que up for High Level roulette I pretty much expect a speedrun these days. But for EX dungeons? It needs to stop.

Now maybe with a static group you're fine, but as a WHM, most tanks simply can't stand up to it, but that sure doesn't stop them from trying. When I can spam Cure 2 to barely keep a tank alive (ilvl 116, so I'm far from lacking in the gear department) there's a big problem. And if they get paralyzed or a couple of poisons...

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- OK, this person is EXACTLY correct. 9/10 tanks speed running the new Ex CANNOT handle the damage. They are dead inside of a cure I cast time.

I usualy run exs with my scholar because I wasn't sure (until yesterday) if I could handle pulls with my PLD. Since my healer is my main, I do appreciate when a tank uses his cooldowns, so when I play my PLD, I do the same.
Even if I SR HL roulette, and now ex, I wouldn't mind pulling less. I've run into a fair numbers of tanks who were doing small pulls. A lot more than what I was expecting when I was looking for advices on forums and was reading posts from badass tanks who were pulling 35425 dungeons at the same time. In game tanks =/= forum tanks.
It's really intimidating to play a lvl 50 tank for the first time. I wish I'd never read forums first and just enjoy doing dungeons. It took me a very long time just to start doing EX roulette with my PLD because of this mentality ( and I didn't have any trouble doing big pulls or keeping hate. I was just... scared of others reaction).
Now, with 2.5 I'll do all the new dungeons with my PLD. No pressure. It's good for once.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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It's been awhile since I played but even I know this statement isn't true. When the game launched we were speed running AK with i50ish gear. This is not a new thing and any tank with half a brain and equivilant gear should be able to handle big pulls. CD's and just not standing in stuff makes a world of difference. The fact is that most tanks are still in the 'WoW' mindset and think that cd's are only for bosses were the trash hits just as hard if not harder than most bosses.

I agree with the beginning Speed running is getting ridiculous. Low levels are no longer relaxing. I was in Halatali with a warrior, nin, and archer, me as a whm. I was the only one wearing level 50 gear. But alas the tank decided he wanted to do "Big Pulls". Which in all reality was completely ineffective. Not only could I not dps but the dps were all over the place and things were living way longer than they should have.

Retrospectively I should have let him die.

Okay, this has gotten to be stupid. First time in the new WP HM and we get a speedrunner tank. A SPEEDRUNNER TANK! The dungeon hasn't even been here for 24 hours man, you shouldn't be speedrunning in the DF.

With all those stops (Pardon me for a moment: YES! Stops! Forced stops! Let your hate and anger flow forth, O speedrunners!!), how would he even?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

With all those stops (Pardon me for a moment: YES! Stops! Forced stops! Let your hate and anger flow forth, O speedrunners!!), how would he even?

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Between two of the stops there are 3 groups of 3 adds. He ran too far ahead of the healer, and he fell to the ground. Didn't have Hallowed Ground ready or anything. Plus he kept the adds in their buffing zone.

My group wanted to SR the final leg of AK HM. I was like lolno. We're going to take our time and enjoy it!

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

tanks eating aoes

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This, by far, is the biggest cause of speed-run wipes. It doesn't matter how good the healer is, if the tank is eating easily-avoidable aoes, he's going to die. Avoidable damage is avoidable, and rocking 12k health as a warrior won't help you if you take five 3k hits at the same time, cooldowns or not.

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Originally Posted by Black91CRX

While grinding for Zodiac drops, I got into Copper HM with a fresh 50 healer. Tank pulled every mob up to first boss at once (after the initial lift gate). I was thoroughly impressed with his ability to keep up.

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A fresh 50 healer can do just fine as long as the tank does his part and uses cooldowns and dodges aoes. And at least a fresh 50 healer isn't in much danger of stealing threat through healing enmity! It's arguably much worse with a fresh tank and overgeared DD and healers, but still manageable as long as the DDs (and the healers) watch their threat carefully.

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Originally Posted by EinherjarLucian

as long as the DDs (and the healers) watch their threat carefully.

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You pinpointed one of the biggest problems.

Pt with 2 blm and super bullet jesus puller PLD just runs off didn't bother to wait AS ALWAYS, I decided to not chase him why bother to comment "wait plz let me buff before u pull". Stupid to force people to SR first day of the update what the hell tanks LOL chill out with the SR.

Did the new WP for the first time earlier today, the tank ended up pulling 2-3 packs at a time, i didn't mind, and don't usually mind(as long as tanks dodge).

But the fault for this is not on the players, this brand spanking new dungeon is FACE ROLL EASY, especially the trash mobs, yes im a good bit over i90, but with a full i90 party i honestly believe 2 packs per pull would be a cake walk(as long as you have some aoe dps)

These dungeons are just far to easy.

Though the bosses are well balanced for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Amiraa

Pt with 2 blm and super bullet jesus puller PLD just runs off didn't bother to wait AS ALWAYS, I decided to not chase him why bother to comment "wait plz let me buff before u pull". Stupid to force people to SR first day of the update what the hell tanks LOL chill out with the SR.

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They couldn't hear you coz they are already yalms ahead with a pack of mobs wondering "where da healz at?"

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Originally Posted by Synestr

They couldn't hear you coz they are already yalms ahead with a pack of mobs wondering "where da healz at?"

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Lol yeah he did yell scream "QQ no healzz waaai ?? DPSSS WTFFFF" The DPS decided not to go waited for buffs and asked me to let him die i was like okay cool with it , we got another tank who was pretty cool no trouble at all ;D.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

You pinpointed one of the biggest problems.

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You mean the one, where tanks are still pulling, when they are down to 4k HP and healer gains aggro, because he is FORCED to heal?

This is the worst type of tanks, i might keep tanks up which do refuse to use cooldowns, but no one else but the tank is supposed to get dmg at mass pulls.

yawn..... speed ran all the new dungeons hours after release with no idea about trash damage or mechanics.
stop making excuses for being bad.

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Originally Posted by Staris

yawn..... speed ran all the new dungeons hours after release with no idea about trash damage or mechanics.
stop making excuses for being bad.

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It's not called being bad >insert sarcastic name for Staris here< It's called be helpful, enjoy the new content and stop rushing through dungeons to save 5 minutes. It's players like you that make me smile ear to ear when SE introduces mechanics like they did in Qarn, where you have to stop and fight a single pack of mobs...

I swear most people that say the stuff I quoted above, think because they "can" SR content that they are somehow better than the rest that don't.

I say to you: Stop being ridiculous!

Old Content Yes! Especially as a Warrior, the more mobs pulled the better; Overpower>Featherfoot>Convalescence>Bloodbath>Internal Release>Overpower>Infuriate>Berserk>Overpower>Repeat. The more mobs, the more self Healing, the more damage overall, etc. Now any good Tank knows the day a patch hits, when you and your party have no idea damage the mobs do, mechanics, etc., take it slow, loads of time to learn a groove to speed run it later. Just my two cents

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Originally Posted by Staris

yawn..... speed ran all the new dungeons hours after release with no idea about trash damage or mechanics.
stop making excuses for being bad.

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You'd deserve the slowest tank in the galaxy with i90 DPS in your group just for your last sentence.

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Originally Posted by Staris

yawn..... speed ran all the new dungeons hours after release with no idea about trash damage or mechanics.
stop making excuses for being bad.

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I feel like this isn't actually true, but just an attempt to grab attention by being edgy and somewhat condescending. Sure, I'm well aware that I'm not helping by further quoting it, but for all the talk of speed running being more practical or what have you, nothing about this sounds even remotely practical.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I feel like this isn't actually true, but just an attempt to grab attention by being edgy and somewhat condescending. nothing about this sounds even remotely practical.

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Why would it not be true? I sped run the new dungeons the first time in them with a pre-made. None of the standard enemies have attacks that make speed running dangerous, just a ton of forced stops. Contrast my first run in the DF for Wanderer's palace HM, which took almost 15 minutes extra pulling one pack at a time since the healer wasn't geared for it than it did in my pre-made. Speed running the new dungeons is easily viable if everyone is geared/willing for it.

In fact, AK HM is actually great to speed run due to all the vines which inflict vulnerability+ on anything they hit, allowing you to melt entire packs quickly.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Why would it not be true?

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I'm 100% positive that she is referring to this part of the sentence:

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Originally Posted by Staris

stop making excuses for being bad.

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...not that the dungeons cannot be sped ran...