Observations From A Relatively New Player

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Originally Posted by ChibiChan_Hyperion

If I see the message, I'll just explain things anyway. Doesn't take but a few seconds, and they might pipe up in response as well.

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I used to but have ran into so many alt's lately that unless you pipe up and say "I don't know" I am going to assume you do. While you can say it is unfair to assume that they do, it is just as unfair to assume they do not. If you are new and say something I will gladly explain fights and mechanics to people.

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Originally Posted by DSN

I used to but have ran into so many alt's lately

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I'll admit to having a bunch of alts at all different level/dungeon ranges... *Whistles innocently and pretends not to see own sig* so I understand where you're coming from. It just feels weird to really say anything off the bat "i'm not new, this is just an alt" just feels weird.... like it's a random comment coming out of left field. But if it helps peeps out at all, I'll toss it out there :)

I think the only time I mention newness is when I tank since it's a class type I'm not 100% familiar with (healing I am, DPSing I am, but tanking? high stress to lead, aggro maintain, grab/lob to protect, etc and looking at mechanics in a new light, for me x_x). I just say I'm new to tanking the dungeon - even if I'm familiar with the dungeon itself from my main char/class

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Originally Posted by DSN

I used to but have ran into so many alt's lately that unless you pipe up and say "I don't know" I am going to assume you do. While you can say it is unfair to assume that they do, it is just as unfair to assume they do not. If you are new and say something I will gladly explain fights and mechanics to people.

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First of all, I respect that you have a different view on the subject. I wish only to understand it.

When the message shows up, is it not already telling you someone is new? Even if you think it might be someones alt, a "Anyone new?" seems like a very fair question to ask, given the message. You seem to be pushing really hard for the new person to be the one to speak up. This thread is a perfect example of why doing that can be a bad idea for the new player. I don't think it would hurt to take the initiative if you really wish to help the newer players. Show them that speaking up won't result in a situation similar to the OPs. You say that you used to - so is this new behavior not simply a result of your burnout?

Unknown players are very intimidating! Feel free to ignore though, just the way I see it.

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Originally Posted by ChibiChan_Hyperion

First of all, I respect that you have a different view on the subject. I wish only to understand it.

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While I get your point it sort of becomes a chicken or egg question. Most groups I am in I don't even get a Hello from anyone. I start each run with a "{Hello} {Nice to meet you}" inviting and opening a dialog. So I could argue my job has been done and if you are new that it is your responsibility to speak up now.

I guess I would say a better assessment is that if no one replies and I have the new player notification I am more inclined to assume you are an alt and know what you are doing and just do my run quick like to get everyone out asap. I also check people before I do my first pull and see if they are capable of speed runs and have asked in a few occasions if the healer was up for it. I also will change the speed and number of mobs I pull depending on group make up. If it is an all melee DPS group I tend to pull smaller as it takes them a little longer to kill stuff adding to the healers stress and time that I am taking heavy damage.

I also get there is a real problem with being new and people being overly rude and mean to leaving or refusing to move in some odd fear that new = instant death / waste of my time. We were all 'new' at some point even if you got the worlds first clear you can be a bad ass but you were new just like everyone else. We all have to learn it at some point and I have no problems teaching people content. While I get there are two types of people when it comes to this just remember were not all bad and some of us are happy to assist. Don't give up hope if you run into some bad people there are good ones out there.

Have to wonder to how many people are on a PS3/4 and don't respond due to the keyboard issue.

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Originally Posted by M0xie

Most experienced players don't mind giving tips; but if you don't ask for any, they probably assume you already know what to do. Sounds to me as if that's mostly likely what's happening.

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The OP has stated that he always announce that he is new. But the speed runners will run roughshod, thru and over anyone and everyone. They won't even slow down if you tell them that they need protect.

You can't generalize a population from a few examples. You can't assume that all players are jerks because a small number of players were jerks to you. On the other hand, you can't assume that all new players are morons because you ran into a small number who were. Not knowing mechanics is totally different from being unable to handle mechanics.

When I run dungeons and get the new player message, I always take note of it and behave accordingly. If there's non-boss content that needs explaining, I give very quick, short, to the point pointers for bits where pointers are needed (Sastasha: "kill the clam while it's open," Brayflox: "gotta rush to save the goblins to get loot," Stone Vigil: "watch for patrols," Amdapor Keep: "succubi attack while not aggroed," Qarn: "kill bees first or they'll start instakilling people" etc). The point is to keep it short enough and quick enough that it doesn't slow down the run and annoy the elitist vets while being informative enough to let new players know what to do.

For bosses, I always explain the gameplay-changing aspects of the bosses as completely as I can. Most of the tiny details of boss fights are not actually super important to know - they can be figured out though experiencing them. But, the big things need explaining.
Examples:

• Sastaha - 3rd boss: "When the bubbles appear, use them asap unless you're the tank. Melee DPS, get the one near the tank."
• Copperbell - 2nd boss: (assuming tank is not new) "Do NOT attack the ooze or the bombs. When there are 8 oozes, then attack," 3rd boss: "ignore adds, burn boss."
• Tam-tara - last boss: "Kill adds, imps first."
• Thousand Maws - last boss: "Wait, don't enter! Long cutscene - new player will get locked out. Oh, and kill adds."
• Haukke Manor - 3rd boss: "Use the lamps when they turn on to turn them off. Melee DPS, please get the one near the tank. Kill adds."
• Cutter's Cry - 1st boss: if the healer is new, explain kiting the adds. 2nd boss: "When he goes under, run to the edge. If you get pulled inward, run to the edge. Esuna the DoT he casts." 3rd boss: "When you see purple, run into melee range of the boss. When you see blue, run out of melee range of the boss. When the boss focuses on you, run until the orb he throws stops moving."
• Stone Vigil - 1st boss: "Run after him when he moves, stand on his tail when he uses Swinge," 2nd boss: "Tank boss right where we're standing. When the dragon appears, someone will use the cannon to shoot him. {person}, can you take care of that?" 3rd boss: "Just dodge the AoEs."
• Amdapor Keep - 1st boss: "this guy summons the real boss, kill him first. Kill the smaller golem adds when they spawn, not the huge one. LoS the huge one's AoE with a pillar." 2nd boss: "AoEs will appear on the ground, dodge them by strafing back and forth. It'll do center, sides, center, sides, then repel. For repel, stand in the center and face the boss or you may fall off." 3rd boss: "tank him at the marker. Stay on his flanks unless you're the tank - he cleaves and butt-cleaves. LoS the center of the room (NOT the boss) with this statue when Imminent Catastrophe starts casting. Catastrophe is always followed by an add - kill the add. If you get a thingie on you, run away from the party until the boss shoots an orb at you."
• Garuda Story: "When she vanishes and reappears, hide behind a pillar. Kill adds asap. Don't stand near pillars. Tank her where she stands. You can dodge Slipstream even though it doesn't have an indicator. When we don't have pillars to hide behind, if she vanishes, hide behind her if you can. If you can't, get as far away from her as you can."

For most of these, it takes seconds to say and saves so much time and stress. It doesn't generally bother experienced players since no time is lost in the explaining. Of course, as you get into endgame content, the explanations get longer. For dungeons like AK, I generally start explaining them during the last two pulls before the boss to save time. When ST launched, I wrote macros early on that explained the fights, and then I kept removing details to shorten them to be as concise as I could. The minute the trash pull before a boss was done, I'd run the macro for the upcoming boss while running to the boss room. By the time everyone was there, the explanation was done.

So, in short, if you have new people, explaining things is very good. It makes them feel welcome and saves everyone's time by increasing DPS and reducing wipes. However, over-explaining leads to the opposite - annoyed vet players and new players missing the important details in the sea of info you give them. Be nice, be patient, be helpful, be brief.


As far as people who aren't very good at the role they're expected to perform (tanks who can't hold aggro, DPS who use sub-optimal rotations, healers who overheal, etc), condescending explanations that assume they're idiots serve no purpose. Making fun of them or yelling at them because of those things also serves absolutely no purpose. It doesn't get them to change their behavior and it makes you look like an ass. If you want to explain to them how to perform better at their role, be patient, be kind, be helpful, be brief. Instead of "you suck at holding hate, do better" or "wtf, don't you know what to do? Sigh, fine I'll explain it to you since you clearly can't pick it up on your own. First, put flash on your bar, then click it to use it (etc)," how about something that's more like: "If you're having trouble keep aggro from the whole group, try using the Flash skill between combos. Also, if you have solid hate on one, throw a combo at a different one."


Personally, I love speed runs, but I hate non-consensual speed runs. When I tank, I always ask the healer if it's okay before doing big pulls. When I heal, I always get irritated at tanks who do big pulls without warning or asking first (unless it's expected, like ST). The only time I don't ask first when tanking is if I know we can handle it and my wife is healing. In that case, I call out to her something like "Honey, more incoming" and she responds with something like ".......... fine, you heal, I'm too busy spamming holy because someone is impatient." <_<

I always feel bad for people who are abused for being new -- in my view, they should be encouraged as they are already giving the vets extra tomes. When I tank dungeons for non-FC members in roulette and get new players, I always go slowly and explain all the mechanics (so the next time they know, in case they get put in with people who just won't wait). However, I do worry that until 2.5, this will only get worse since the ilvl cap is off again. I've noticed while running some new people through the HMs, that overgeared people i110+ can often push phases and so the new player may not even see how the dungeon is ran when not with light farming, 1/2 poetics equipped players.

If I'm grinding content over and over again, I'm not going to slow down every time there's a newbie in my team. THEN AGAIN I rarely ever tank so the pace normally isn't up to me. I also do not feel like it's my job to hold-hands and guide every newbie through a dungeon either. I feel it's their job to make their experience the best as possible by either doing research or making a premade to ensure the speed they want.

I know someone's going to say "Well you should ensure you get the run you want blah blah....". I do. Most of the time I'm in a half or full premade. But when my friends are busy I PUG it, and I've accepted that sometimes PUGs are fast and sometimes they're slow. That I wont have any control over the pace unless I tank. I may not like slow but... /shrug

This is why I tend to look up guides first (though the videos just bore me to tears, so I find them hard to watch)...it doesn't mean I'll remember everything, but it gives me something to look at really quick.

Thankfully on the Main story quests, all the teams (so far) have been "watch the scenes or fight, doesn't matter" of course, I fought, because I just felt bad when they fought and I was just watching the cutscenes :(

You don't have to slow down everytime there is a newbie on your team, nor do you have to hold their hand, but on the other side of the equation, show compassion and understanding. You have a new person on your team,TEAM. Most of the time if said new person struggles, whole party struggles. It is to your benefit to help new player understand so party can have a smooth run. Especially if you are "grinding" old content because guess what? You are more likely to bump into a new player grinding "old' content that is "new" to them. its not hard people. Stop acting like dicks and just treat people with respect.