Which classes do you think need adjustments?

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Goad targeting self? NIN already has access to Invigorate. If you're playing smart (and even if you're only playing kinda smart), there is no scenario short of spamming Death Blossom, in which Invigorate + Goad would not equal an unlimited never ending supply of tp. Invigorate alone should be able to keep your tp up through just about any fight in the game if you're using it correctly. Add Goad in there and, well, you've just inherited the melee equivalent of blm's MP pool. As far as the mudra weaving thing, I don't see it being necessary at all. It would be convenient, yeah, but what you gain for giving up that single gcd every 20 seconds (70 seconds of haste, absurdly high potency of raiton, and, well, Suiton/TA) is more than worth it.

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With TP cost increases, Goad will be less effective. It was able to stave off Paeon due to TP efficiency, being able to self Goad would continue that.

Being able to weave Mudras would stop latency issues.

That moment when you had an entire essay, and your Chrome crashes.

Only thing I'll say is, follow your own words.

"Read entire posts, not parts that would be beneficial for you or your message you're trying to carry through."

Seriously. Can't believe you're saying that a BLM has the same movement ability as a SMN. Our DPS halts, yours continues.

Hmm, perhaps I can make another thread about Mobility, SMN and BLM so this thread doesn't further derail.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

What is everybody's opinion on Monks and Bards?

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Wouldn't change a single thing about bard.

I believe Bards are more than fine but many people are asking for buffs on Bards. Was wondering if anybody else felt this way and why

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

I believe Bards are more than fine but many people are asking for buffs on Bards. Was wondering if anybody else felt this way and why

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I think it's because a lot of people want to play a DPS class with a bow. BRD has extremely high raid wide utility. They sacrifice some DPS for their utility. Some BRD's think that they're DPS should be higher.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This is also true of every physical job except a skill speed Monk. I don't see why that should keep the Ninja alone from being unable to receive its Goad. ...Except that it would be the only melee not to require a Bard, but then, what group doesn't bring a Bard, let alone goad it?

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What content is this that ever requires paeon? If the answer is Final coil, then I'll have to ask you to forgive my ignorance as I have not participated in it yet. In any case, short of final coil, there is nothing, not a single bit of content in the entire game in which a job with invigorate ever needs paeon unless A: it's a giant AoE fest (like pre echo t4) or B: you have screwed up, either by dying, or by not making correct use out of invigorate. Even in the incredibly TP intensive T8, invigorate is more than sufficient to get you through the entire fight. Really, the only jobs that should ever -need- goad are mnk, pld, and war.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I think it's because a lot of people want to play a DPS class with a bow. BRD has extremely high raid wide utility. They sacrifice some DPS for their utility. Some BRD's think that they're DPS should be higher.

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I think brd is fine where it's at. If you play the job well, keep your dots up 100% of the time, use all your cooldowns right and aren't loaded down by piles of acc and skill speed instead of det and crit (like all those full auroral brds) you can be right up there with the big boys. Yes, head to head, brd does less dps than the other pure dps jobs, but the ability to move freely without losing anything more than a few auto attacks, tends to edge us back up. It's not uncommon for a brd to be near the top on any fight with a lot of dodging/mechanics, unless you find yourself needing to use ballad.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

What content is this that ever requires paeon? If the answer is Final coil, then I'll have to ask you to forgive my ignorance as I have not participated in it yet. In any case, short of final coil, there is nothing, not a single bit of content in the entire game in which a job with invigorate ever needs paeon unless A: it's a giant AoE fest (like pre echo t4) or B: you have screwed up, either by dying, or by not making correct use out of invigorate. Even in the incredibly TP intensive T8, invigorate is more than sufficient to get you through the entire fight. Really, the only jobs that should ever -need- goad are mnk, pld, and war.

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Bard drinks TP like a milkshake thanks to Straighter Shot procs and should be on any list of needs Goad. It's thanks to over-gearing and echo that T8 may no longer require Paeon for some raids. This was no the case in the beginning.

I've always played brd in t8. I always play to my highest potential, keeping straight shot and dots up 100% of the time, making use of every straighter shot proc, and using invigorate the second it's off cooldown, starting with the first one right after I dip below 600tp. I have never, ever had to use paeon. I'm not saying I never came close to running out, I'm just saying that I never actually did. Granted, I've also never had a mnk in t8 with me. That I'm sure would have changed things, but again, mnk is the exception to the rule, being the only physical dps without access to invigorate.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

That I'm sure would have changed things, but again, mnk is the exception to the rule, being the only physical dps without access to invigorate.

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...yes, it does. It's not enough though. Not enough to dragoons either, even though they have it traited.

I don't know what to say. The drg and nin in my static never had a need of paeon, and neither have I maybe our dps is just high enough to beat the tp bleed. Only songs I've ever needed to cast were requiem as often as possible for our blm and smn, and occasionally a ballad if things went wrong.

I do believe Bard is not scaling properly, and they're getting further behind all jobs as each progression patch comes out. They mainly need a WD modifier patch (or increase their WD up), or bring back their original potency. Their numbers are okay this patch, but it's only getting worse.

WAR- Parry traits/buff. I know they mentioned they wanna do this. Parry should proc extremely often, 1 in 3 or one in 5 chance. Or force internal hit counter so 1 in every x hits is parried, for a forced minimum % of hits blocked. Foresight trait, damage parried is absorbed as HP. full amount. 1k hit - parried for 10%, war gets 100 hp back.

BRD- stable footing. toggles like cleric stance. 10-15% movement speed reduction when active. Increases DPS.(flat %, CRIT rate, or something fancy like auto-attacks have 30-50% chance to double-attack).

If they were gonna buff brd dps, and I had my choice of how, I'd want them to (and this is probably the only time I'll ever say this) borrow from FFXI and bring back the "sweet spot." Straight damage boost is boring. Give us damage only if we're actively keeping the right distance away to upkeep it

Summoner definitely needs an adjustment. Despite having no utility in Raids the Summoner's Damage is slightly higher or equal to Bards with the same ilvl. Summoner's dps should be significantly higher than the Black Mage because Black Mage's have three utility moves that are useful Manawall, Apocatastasis and Aetherial Maniplulatin. Also Black Mage is Single Target and AoE King. What utility does Summoner have that warrants such weak dps a useless battle resurrection which if Summoner's have to use during a Raid means it's time to wipe.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner definitely needs an adjustment. Despite having no utility in Raids the Summoner's Damage is slightly higher or equal to Bards with the same ilvl. Summoner's dps should be significantly higher than the Black Mage because Black Mage's have three utility moves that are useful Manawall, Apocatastasis and Aetherial Maniplulatin. Also Black Mage is Single Target and AoE King. What utility does Summoner have that warrants such weak dps a useless battle resurrection which if Summoner's have to use during a Raid means it's time to wipe.

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If Virus and Eye for an Eye are not utility, then are they? Summoner does have issues which could be looked into, but saying they have no utility, while in paragraph as mentioning Resurrection is just nutters.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

If Virus and Eye for an Eye are not utility, then are they? Summoner does have issues which could be looked into, but saying they have no utility, while in paragraph as mentioning Resurrection is just nutters.

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Ignore Azika. They are basically shunned by most of the SMN community.

I do think however SMN are in a not-so-good spot at the moment. Many of the fights are basically dummy fights with constant uptime, their 'good' DPS rotation drains mana super fast, and their utility isnt very useful in many of the fights.

E4E and Virus are good, but the healers can handle that. Not to mention BLM gets both as well.

Battlerez should be done by the healers who actually have the piety to do it, as SMN has the lowest mana pool in the game with no way aside from crafted gear to augment it.

Finally we have a massive amount of required spell speed on our gear this patch, wth SE?

I simple buff to Piety for SMN would fix the MP issues, just 500 more MP would give another 200 MP/minute in battle on top of the extra 500 before you run dry. Of course, then SMN would be asking for more spell speed.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I simple buff to Piety for SMN would fix the MP issues, just 500 more MP would give another 200 MP/minute in battle on top of the extra 500 before you run dry. Of course, then SMN would be asking for more spell speed.

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SMN will never ask for spell speed, if anything we will ask for less.

To elaborate: Our DoTs are not affected by spell speed, they will always tick every 3 seconds for the same amount of damage.
Festers are not affected by spell speed, they are limited by the one minute aetherflow cooldowns.
Shadowflare is not affected by spell speed.
Our Pets are not affected by our spell speed.

The only spell which spell speed 'improves' is Ruin. All it does is give us 1-2 extra Ruin casts. This is bad because Ruin is our absolute worst spell that we only use when we cant be doing something better.

Oh and spell speed causes us to OOM faster. Not good.

Removing Shoulder Tackle's stun would be nice. It's not really all that helpful (need to walk back to use, short duration of stun) and can be detrimental sometimes if you need to get to something quickly but don't want to build stun resistance. (e.g. Add in Levi EX, Dreadknights in T5, Ifrit HM)

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

SMN will never ask for spell speed, if anything we will ask for less.

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Oh and spell speed causes us to OOM faster. Not good.

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That was the point, give SMN enough MP that there is no OOM issue, and they will ask for more spell speed to get those extra ruins in.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

That was the point, give SMN enough MP that there is no OOM issue, and they will ask for more spell speed to get those extra ruins in.

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SS would be more beneficial if there are no mana issues but it still won't touch CHR or DET's affect on their DPS. With how they do DPS they'll never value SS until an inherent change in their mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

What content is this that ever requires paeon? If the answer is Final coil, then I'll have to ask you to forgive my ignorance as I have not participated in it yet. In any case, short of final coil, there is nothing, not a single bit of content in the entire game in which a job with invigorate ever needs paeon unless A: it's a giant AoE fest (like pre echo t4) or B: you have screwed up, either by dying, or by not making correct use out of invigorate. Even in the incredibly TP intensive T8, invigorate is more than sufficient to get you through the entire fight. Really, the only jobs that should ever -need- goad are mnk, pld, and war.

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Final Coil is exactly where this, and just about everything else, really matters...

Sidenote: my Bard bleeds TP faster than my PLD and WAR (60 spam, 70 every 8 moves/per proc and 2 80s per 7 moves [66.25] >> 70-60-60 spam avg [63.33]; more so in multi-target/multi-DoT situations. The ability for the Nin to goad a bard 2/3s of the time and self 1/3 of the time [2 casters] is about the only way you're going to skip Paeon altogether over a 11+ minute fight. Otherwise, that Bard is going to be Paeoning himself not long after the Monk needs it, and well before the rest.

[Even a Monk will only be at 55.77 avg cost w/o Fracture, which you can modify to 64.86 with GL (no bonus SS)). Though it would be rare to find a Monk w/o SS, they really wouldn't be depleting any faster than a Bard getting plentiful Straighter Shot procs).

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

SS would be more beneficial if there are no mana issues but it still won't touch CHR or DET's affect on their DPS. With how they do DPS they'll never value SS until an inherent change in their mechanics.

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Or if SS itself was changed, such as by affecting Aetherflow CD... among others... *prays*

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

SMN will never ask for spell speed, if anything we will ask for less.

To elaborate: Our DoTs are not affected by spell speed, they will always tick every 3 seconds for the same amount of damage.
Festers are not affected by spell speed, they are limited by the one minute aetherflow cooldowns.
Shadowflare is not affected by spell speed.
Our Pets are not affected by our spell speed.

The only spell which spell speed 'improves' is Ruin. All it does is give us 1-2 extra Ruin casts. This is bad because Ruin is our absolute worst spell that we only use when we cant be doing something better.

Oh and spell speed causes us to OOM faster. Not good.

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If i remember right it affect pet gcd as well.

EDIT:nvm just check it and it does not affect the pet

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If i remember right it affect pet gcd as well.

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It distinctly doesn't, as per a post by SE officials saying it's not intended to.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

I don't know what to say. The drg and nin in my static never had a need of paeon, and neither have I maybe our dps is just high enough to beat the tp bleed. Only songs I've ever needed to cast were requiem as often as possible for our blm and smn, and occasionally a ballad if things went wrong.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

What content is this that ever requires paeon? If the answer is Final coil, then I'll have to ask you to forgive my ignorance as I have not participated in it yet. In any case, short of final coil, there is nothing, not a single bit of content in the entire game in which a job with invigorate ever needs paeon unless A: it's a giant AoE fest (like pre echo t4) or B: you have screwed up, either by dying, or by not making correct use out of invigorate. Even in the incredibly TP intensive T8, invigorate is more than sufficient to get you through the entire fight. Really, the only jobs that should ever -need- goad are mnk, pld, and war.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

...yes, it does. It's not enough though. Not enough to dragoons either, even though they have it traited.

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I like how someone who has

ONE, only raided on Bard,
TWO, to SCOB content only,
THREE, doesn't know MNK can cross-class invigorate,

tries to speak for all TP using classes that paeon is never needed. If that isn't naive sweeping generalisation then I don't know what is. Your understanding of how your bard skills affect the rest of your party to the finer details is very lacking, and disturbing my friend.

If you have the time, go pop by MNK or DRG's forum threads (yes all 412 pages for the DRG one). TP has always been an issue for fights beyond the 6 minute mark, if there are no breaks in attack in between.

If your NIN is goading your DRG on top of his invigorate then fine, I don't think DRG needs the paeon, though you might be TP starved for a few GCDs before your invigorate comes back up towards the end, but nothing that is worth huge QQ over why my bard doesn't want to paeon for me. Alternatively if your DRG isn't getting the goads, then ask your DRG honestly how much downtime he suffers while being TP starved. That or he is not carrying his own weight at all :)

Truth be told, for up to turn 12, ONE session of Paeon is always required, pretty much between the 3rd and 4th invigorate to bridge the TP Burn vs TP regen such that you don't burn out b4 your invigorate comes up. Typically this extends the TP regen cycle by 1 invigorate cooldown, meaning once the 400/500 TP from the 4th invigorate finishes, you're TP starved for roughly 10 GCDs before your invigorate comes back up. This 5th invigorate is bridged using LB3. Yes we still regen TP while casting that 3 GCD worth of LB3, and the TP regen without TP usage during the casting of LB3 is later expended over time till the 6th invigorate comes up.

By the 6th invigorate, you would be roughly 11-12 minutes into the fight (each invigorate is 2 min cooldown, your first invigorate is popped roughly a min into the fight). By then you would have hit enrage or hitting enrage soon in all contents so far. So basically you burn the boss down after you finish that 400/500 TP regen from that 6th invigorate.

The above is with consideration for bards to use as little damage reduction songs as possible (Read as Paeon or Ballad). If your party's mana management is fine and nobody's dying to shit, usually bards do 15 seconds of paeon with battle voice, followed by 15 seconds of ballad, with the rest of the mana and battle voice channeled to foe requiem.

I'd like to see Bards lose the damage penalty for singing Paeon/Ballad.

It really sucks from a gameplay design point of view to penalize a player for trying to help their group.

The songs themselves don't add all that much to gameplay. Foes is played 90% of the time. Ballad during progression/if a fight goes bad and lots of resses go out. Paeon pretty rarely, maybe once per fight without a ninja.

There's no real reason to keep the damage penalty in place for two songs since the song you sing 90% of the time doesn't penalize you.

I'd like to see brds play paeon... period.

Changes to Bard maybe
Smn needs some adjustments as well.
And what other adjustments? No Ninja Nerf would be nice ;)

Zophar, go shoot a test dummy for 7 minutes and tell me when your TP runs out. Then go do T8 and tell me how long the fight is. There is no mechanic in t8 where there is an invulnerability period or a period where you have to stop DPS, so you should be TP starved at the same point in time as you were shooting the test dummy. If you have TP, it's because at some point in time you are not using GCD shots and are unware of it.

Or, you have enough crafted/melded gear pieces to remove the useless skill speed stats on some of our tome/coil gear drops. Which is outside the norm. most people cannot afford crafted/penta melded gear. :O

Anyone have thoughts on war and/or parry adjustments?

I really want to share something and that is the difference Weapon Damage makes to different classes. To it always seemed that melee DPS their damage scales a lot higher than caster DPS causing a bigger gap. I currently have the High Allagan staff. Let's just say that I was about 30-40 DPS behind our eaqually geared Ninja. Now that the Ninja has his ilvl 130 weapon he is doing like 80 DPS more than I am doing. It's like his DPS increased by at least 30. I feel that when I will get my 130 weapon, my DPS will only inscrease by 15 perhaps. It has always been like that. Is it just me or ... ?

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Ignore Azika. They are basically shunned by most of the SMN community.

and their utility isnt very useful in many of the fights.

E4E and Virus are good, but the healers can handle that. Not to mention BLM gets both as well.

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I find it funny you would say that about Akiza yet say exactly what she conveyed about SMNs.

The JP SMN discussion thread has a some awesome suggestions for SMN.

First, change pet crit proc to mana regen.
The main problem with SMN right now for the limit on dps is mana issue. I can't afford to use RuinII during movement because that will drain my mana so fast.

Another suggestion would be egis benefiting from foods.
There is no reason why we uses the same equipment as BLM, but are forced to top our acc to that of a melee, without food, so that our pets would have 100% accuracy.
Also we don't benefit 100% from the food as the other classes.
Say our pet does approximately 30% of our total DPS and us ourselves do the other 70%. A food buff that increases your DPS by 20% would only increase a SMN's dps by 70%*20%, 14%, where everyone else gets the full 20%. This isn't fair, and the gap between the SMN and rest of class increases as food buff becomes increasing better with new crafts.

Of course there's also the auto attack issue but I don't think a lot of ppl use it.