Carraway's Guide to the New Archer: 1.18 and Beyond

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Originally Posted by Akuun

and with the 174 str (plus w/e my gear adds) in BRs I typically hit for 2400-2900 on the ogre and Batraal.

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What Weaponskill did you use and are you staggering the Weaponskill between classes + have all 8 people in the BR? also how fast are you killing Ogre?

With those numbers i can see under 3min kills being easily possible but i have personally not seen anything close to those kinds of numbers in DH and not since back when my LS was practicing BRs on Uraeus.

I personally want to be proved wrong about BRs because even if i think they are clunky and a terrible design if they can cut time off a clear they are well worth perfecting them.

But so far from testing i have done and videos posted of LS's doing BRs they don't come close to doing that type of damage im not even sure half of that.

I haven't seen those types of numbers either. I would assume it would lead to a dead DD though.

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Originally Posted by Penguin

What Weaponskill did you use and are you staggering the Weaponskill between classes + have all 8 people in the BR? also how fast are you killing Ogre?

With those numbers i can see under 3min kills being easily possible but i have personally not seen anything close to those kinds of numbers in DH and not since back when my LS was practicing BRs on Uraeus.

I personally want to be proved wrong about BRs because even if i think they are clunky and a terrible design if they can cut time off a clear they are well worth perfecting them.

But so far from testing i have done and videos posted of LS's doing BRs they don't come close to doing that type of damage im not even sure half of that.

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I've never seen numbers quite that high on Ogre, but I suppose on a maimed/fully debuffed mob melee bursting it is possible we used to get similar Chaos Thrust melee bursts back in 15 person party BR's.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

I agree with most of the gear selection, the only change or additions I see, are getting rid of the bracelet i'll take 6 more accuracy from 2 more brass wings instead. Also a good head piece that isn't mentioned is the Peregrine Helm with 1 attack and 1 accuracy, as attack is a little tougher to get than accuracy, i see this being equal to the poachers hat.

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I hadn't thought about the Peregrine Helm, good catch. The Mythril Wristlets are merely a possible suggestion for the wrist slot; as you'll see, "None" is also an option.

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Originally Posted by Penguin

What Weaponskill did you use and are you staggering the Weaponskill between classes + have all 8 people in the BR? also how fast are you killing Ogre?

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I don't use a weapon skill, I use light shot, usually are stack looks like this
WS>WS>WS>WS>Spell>Spell>Light shot
I'm not sure what are fastest time is, I know we've done it in under 4 mins from hitting the room to death

A little more about the BR, I'm the only one buffing, and the buffs I've been stacking are Raging strike 2, Ferocity 2, Hawk's eye, and Blindside
This helps get the BRs out quick, and we've started rotating between me an another archer to maximize on the damage due to cool downs, and keep my hate from going nuts by doing raging, cadence, keen flurry, murderous intent for the second
I've literally pulled so much hate on a single br, that chameleon, and 2 accomplice with the tank popping every voke, still had me in the red, but that is rare.

Oops, one last note, we don't use any debuffs like expose, or even bother with defense down (we used to use defense down but was taking away from damaging BRs with little difference in damage)

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Originally Posted by carraway

I hadn't thought about the Peregrine Helm, good catch. The Mythril Wristlets are merely a possible suggestion for the wrist slot; as you'll see, "None" is also an option.

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Yeah, when I first saw the helm I wasn't too impressed, but when I started gearing my archer, I found it was the only piece with attack for the slot. And we all know how much str it takes to equal 1 attack.
Ah, I read it as 1 mythril, nothing on the other wrist, and brass rings to fill the last 2. >>bonks self in the head<<

does 1 attack on a head piece do more for you then 3str/3dex and much higher def/mdef/eva?

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Originally Posted by Scape

does 1 attack on a head piece do more for you then 3str/3dex and much higher def/mdef/eva?

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It'd be extraordinarily time-consuming to test this to a comfortable level of confidence, but my gut says that 1 attack right now does more than 3 STR. As for the rest, it's a matter of personal preference -- what's your damage intake? Do you feel that having higher def/mdef on your gear makes a difference for either you or your party (survivability, MP costs of healing you, etc.)?

Akuun, based on your experience, I'm interested now in testing BRs again for the sake of getting a faster 5-chest run, but I just want to clarify -- you're getting 800 damage per arrow when closing a BR with a buffed 3-arrow Light Shot?

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Originally Posted by carraway

It'd be extraordinarily time-consuming to test this to a comfortable level of confidence, but my gut says that 1 attack right now does more than 3 STR. As for the rest, it's a matter of personal preference -- what's your damage intake? Do you feel that having higher def/mdef on your gear makes a difference for either you or your party (survivability, MP costs of healing you, etc.)?

Akuun, based on your experience, I'm interested now in testing BRs again for the sake of getting a faster 5-chest run, but I just want to clarify -- you're getting 800 damage per arrow when closing a BR with a buffed 3-arrow Light Shot?

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I'm curious how he is getting a melee burst off of light shot. Only TP abilities should work like that from my understanding of how BR have worked since launch... I must have missed something or it could just be in a weakened state kind of like how if you fire a weapon skill off directly after the BR launches you get a damage boost the way you would if it were stacked. (as a BR starter I always took advantage of this)

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I'm curious how he is getting a melee burst off of light shot. Only TP abilities should work like that from my understanding of how BR have worked since launch... I must have missed something or it could just be in a weakened state kind of like how if you fire a weapon skill off directly after the BR launches you get a damage boost the way you would if it were stacked. (as a BR starter I always took advantage of this)

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It is only TP moves that get a 1.5x multiplier after the previous one. Putting Light Shot at the end of a TP BR is not helping anything, except for the slight damage buff you get for just being in a BR - but for that Light Shot can be in the beginning of the BR and at least put up a TP debuff on the mob. Overall - no point.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

It is only TP moves that get a 1.5x multiplier after the previous one. Putting Light Shot at the end of a TP BR is not helping anything, except for the slight damage buff you get for just being in a BR - but for that Light Shot can be in the beginning of the BR and at least put up a TP debuff on the mob. Overall - no point.

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That's not really correct either though.

Melee bursts, like magic bursts give a greater overall damage multiplier than TP skill>TP skill. Also there is a bonus beyond "just being in a BR" that apparently has some effect on abilities towards the end/directly after a BR. I've tested this extensively on my pugilist when I was launching BR's. I would launch a BR with something like Seismic Shock (because it never misses) or Skull Sunder II, then immediately follow the BR with a Follow Through (unbuffed) and receive a large damage bonus on that Follow Through beyond I think even if I had stacked it.

What I'm getting at is there may also be a stacking system in place purely for number of abilities used as part of the BR (or registered as part of the BR as long as you fire them off within a certain amount of time of the BR launch).

Not sure if it changed with recent patches, but you could definitely fire off a WS or basic attack during/right after a BR and get a bonus to damage. Sometimes my Heavy Stabs would just do 100-150 dmg and it was because I used it while a BR was firing.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

That's not really correct either though.

Melee bursts, like magic bursts give a greater overall damage multiplier than TP skill>TP skill. Also there is a bonus beyond "just being in a BR" that apparently has some effect on abilities towards the end/directly after a BR. I've tested this extensively on my pugilist when I was launching BR's. I would launch a BR with something like Seismic Shock (because it never misses) or Skull Sunder II, then immediately follow the BR with a Follow Through (unbuffed) and receive a large damage bonus on that Follow Through beyond I think even if I had stacked it.

What I'm getting at is there may also be a stacking system in place purely for number of abilities used as part of the BR (or registered as part of the BR as long as you fire them off within a certain amount of time of the BR launch).

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What you are referring to is something else entirely. If you notice, especially with basic attacks in a BR, your arm/weapon will get a certain hue to it during the animation. I also have noticed that when I use an attack/WS during, or right after a BR goes off that I also get this hue and do more damage.

Also, when you have a bunch of Archers stack native WS (Foeseeker > Bloodletter > Barrage > Barrage etc.) it is not a regimen of any sort since all the WS belong to the same class - yet a damage boost is observed equally across all of them.

This is what I am referring to as a simple damage boost just due to being in a BR. It is that very same boost that you observe when you perform an attack yourself on a target that is being, at that time, engaged by a BR going off.

The increased damage regimen only works if consecutive WS belong to different classes, such as:

Foeseeker > Skull Sunder II > Concussive Blow II > Bloodletter

In the above regimen, each WS after the first receives a 1.5x damage multiplier, leading to Bloodletter having a 3.375 damage multiplier as long as they all hit. Adding Light Shot to the end of that BR, being as it is not even a WS, will not have it receive said multiplier.

Essentially firing off a Light Shot first on a WS BR, last on a WS BR, or independently while a BR is being used on the target will produce the same results damage-wise.

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Originally Posted by carraway

It'd be extraordinarily time-consuming to test this to a comfortable level of confidence, but my gut says that 1 attack right now does more than 3 STR. As for the rest, it's a matter of personal preference -- what's your damage intake? Do you feel that having higher def/mdef on your gear makes a difference for either you or your party (survivability, MP costs of healing you, etc.)?

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Based on some findings from others, to get the same damage boost from str as 1 att, it takes 10 str
so with my 200+ str i'm getting roughly 20 att. I don't have the time, nor do i use parsers so i just have to take their findings at face value for now.

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Originally Posted by carraway

Akuun, based on your experience, I'm interested now in testing BRs again for the sake of getting a faster 5-chest run, but I just want to clarify -- you're getting 800 damage per arrow when closing a BR with a buffed 3-arrow Light Shot?

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800-1000 a shot, yes, I've had damage range within the same BR, like 1 arrow hits for 800 the other 2 hit for 1k each
this may be due to crits, I usually don't have time to check the damage log to check for crits.
I will warn, on a bad BR (out of order, missed hits, etc) damage can quickly plummet, but probably still better than a normal BR.


To clearify for everyone, the boost comes from all WS and spells alternating classes.
So no 2 weapons skills next to each other in the BR are from the same class.
For example, archer, pugilist, archer, gladiator, conjurer, thaumaturge, light shot.
It doesn't matter that those weapon skills are all being performed by archers. (except for 1 performed by the tank)

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Originally Posted by Akuun

To clearify for everyone, the boost comes from all WS and spells alternating classes.
So no 2 weapons skills next to each other in the BR are from the same class.
For example, archer, pugilist, archer, gladiator, conjurer, thaumaturge, light shot.
It doesn't matter that those weapon skills are all being performed by archers. (except for 1 performed by the tank)

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So you're saying the multiplier built by alternating weapon skills in a BR will in fact carry over to a basic attack stacked at the end of a BR? If so, then I can see what the fuss is about. I'll have to look into this.

I also concur that attack +1 gives at least as much damage as STR +10. I tested 4 Sunstone Rings (+20 STR total) vs a Mythril Choker (+4 attack) a while ago and the Choker definitely gave more damage. Atk +1 = STR +10 sounds about right to me honestly.

However, as far as your 200+ STR goes... I believe at rank 50 attributes cap at 174.

i know for a fact that VIT caps at 174, but i'm not sure about all the other stats. i know kaeko did PIE cap testing with regards to THM dots, and it did register past 174.

Easiest way to prove to yourself that at least some stats have an effect beyond 174 is to go above 174 base MND and watch your cures continually go up at a rate of 2MND = +1 HP cured.

It's very difficult to test that every stat works this way, but I think it's a fair extrapolation to make that you can pump more than say 174 STR with some kind of effect.

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Originally Posted by makistar

i know for a fact that VIT caps at 174, but i'm not sure about all the other stats. i know kaeko did PIE cap testing with regards to THM dots, and it did register past 174.

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

Easiest way to prove to yourself that at least some stats have an effect beyond 174 is to go above 174 base MND and watch your cures continually go up at a rate of 2MND = +1 HP cured.

It's very difficult to test that every stat works this way, but I think it's a fair extrapolation to make that you can pump more than say 174 STR with some kind of effect.

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Good to know guys, thanks.

My base str is 174, the rest comes from gear, and 15 from the attribute traits.
Here's my gear setup for those that are interested.
Peregrine Helm
Crab Bow +2 (the Ul'dahn Longbow I use as a backup when our carpenter isn't around)
Brigand's Acton
Penance
Tarred Leather Trousers
Bladedancer's Jackboots (easy enough to get)
Mitts of the Lone Knight (used Venerer's Bracers prior to this piece for the accuracy)
Mythril Choker
Silver Arrows
Brass Ring NQx1 +1x3 (just been too lazy to make a forth +1)
Food Shepard's Pie

I'm really happy that this information is proving to be so useful to everyone. ^_^

Thanks for the additional information. Once I or others in my shell have a chance to corroborate your findings, I'll edit the guide accordingly. Even though I guess it's all rendered moot in 1.19 anyway, might as well make runs smoother until then.

Ha ha, yeah, hopefully it won't be too long of a wait before they return again.

why verdant shortbow over crab +3?

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Originally Posted by Akira

why verdant shortbow over crab +3?

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I would think the greater rate of fire for one.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Ha ha, yeah, hopefully it won't be too long of a wait before they return again.

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I hope so too, this was the biggest let down I think since they announced taking party size from 15-8 without announcing when alliance content would get here.

wouldnt 147 attack and better crit even though slower out damage verdant?

Yeah I figured the longer delay (higher attack) bow would give more of a grace period to fit your Multishots or Heavy Shots or Trifs imbetween the Light Shots. You'll have more of a chance to clip your Light Shot cooldown with the Verdant Bow I would think.

Seems it does work so BRs are officially insanely broken and hopefully incoming 1min 30sec kill when we perfect the strategy.

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...4d8300039a.jpg

Was that in an 8 man BR or a 7?

Just 7. Editing the guide now to reflect our findings based on Akuun's information.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I would think the greater rate of fire for one.

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I think this would only matter if we had a ranged auto attack. If you are not using lightshot as soon as it is up manually, then the lower delay is wasted. IMO, much better to go for the higher damage as an Archer.

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Originally Posted by Akira

why verdant shortbow over crab +3?

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Originally Posted by Akira

wouldnt 147 attack and better crit even though slower out damage verdant?

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Verdant Shortbow vs. Crab Bow +3 Preliminary Testing

At the games current state with stats being off and with the small amount of testing done on the subject we've come to a solid conclusion that Verdant Shortbow and CB3 are as close to a wash as you can get in terms of DPS. The CB3 will always hit for hit be stronger than the Verdant but that doesn't necessarily make it better/the best.

oh, and wow on that multishot! Holly cow.

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Originally Posted by Richardd

Verdant Shortbow vs. Crab Bow +3 Preliminary Testing

At the games current state with stats being off and with the small amount of testing done on the subject we've come to a solid conclusion that Verdant Shortbow and CB3 are as close to a wash as you can get in terms of DPS. The CB3 will always hit for hit be stronger than the Verdant but that doesn't necessarily make it better/the best.

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Well, it looks like CB+3 already has an edge on Verdant, even before you introduce timed cooldowns such as Multishot. I imagine that the gap will become wider if they are incorporated.

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Originally Posted by Richardd

Verdant Shortbow vs. Crab Bow +3 Preliminary Testing

At the games current state with stats being off and with the small amount of testing done on the subject we've come to a solid conclusion that Verdant Shortbow and CB3 are as close to a wash as you can get in terms of DPS. The CB3 will always hit for hit be stronger than the Verdant but that doesn't necessarily make it better/the best.

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Hmm, something isn't right here

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Preliminary raw tests done today: Lv.58 Grass Raptors from Boulder Downs Coerthas. Testing Crab Bow +3 vs. Verdant Shortbow with x5 fights each lasting 90 seconds. Base DEX/STR for this raw testing because stats are never going to be an accurate way to test until they fix them in 1.19. Evades and Auto Attack are filtered out of the chatlog data.

Verdant Shortbow Test
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Total Shots = 135
Total Damage = 16,168
Critical Rate = 11.42%
Miss Rate = 24.44%
136 Attack, 200 Accuracy, 26 STR, 26 DEX


Crab Bow +3 Test
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Total Shots = 105
Total Damage = 16,492
Critical Rate = 5.71%
Miss Rate = 15.23%
155 Attack, 208 Accuracy, 26 STR, 23 DEX

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Let me point out the problem with this parse.
The first is the number of arrows from each weapon to damage total.
Verdant Bow average damage 120 per shot
Crab Bow +3 average damage 157 per shot
First, the average damage of the Verdant bow is about 4/5 of that of the crab bow.
Now if we look at the delay of the bows.
The Verdant Bow is 7/8 the delay.

So over the exact same period of time for each weapon.
Over the course of 1 hour, firing at maximum speed for each.
CB+3 900 shots, total average damage 141,300
VB 1028 shots, total average damage 123,360 (only 87% of the Crab Bow's damage)

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Hmm, something isn't right here


Let me point out the problem with this parse.
The first is the number of arrows from each weapon to damage total.
Verdant Bow average damage 120 per shot
Crab Bow +3 average damage 157 per shot
First, the average damage of the Verdant bow is about 4/5 of that of the crab bow.
Now if we look at the delay of the bows.
The Verdant Bow is 7/8 the delay.

So over the exact same period of time for each weapon.
Over the course of 1 hour, firing at maximum speed for each.
CB+3 900 shots, total average damage 141,300
VB 1028 shots, total average damage 123,360 (only 87% of the Crab Bow's damage)

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There's nothing wrong with the parse, all the information is pulled directly from XIV Log Parser when the testing was done. The only thing that was left out were the number of evades calculated into the total number of shots in 90 second periods. As I said before the sample size, while small is still a preliminary indication of why CB3 is 'as close to as wash as it comes' with Verdant. It is MARGINALLY better over a longer duration of time.

And don't think I'm white knighting for Verdant either. I main CB3 over Verdant because I do believe it's marginally better. Do I think its dps vs. Verdant is worth 15M? Nope.

I'd stake that even the CB+2 is better than the VB, at least for now while TP gain is still based off of damage.
But as I'm sure everyone here already knows, I'm a strong believer in multi shots power. ^^

What he said. (my numbers were off due to not parsing the data myself)
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V

The Crab Bow +2 is way too close to Verdant in damage per shot. The Verdant should be firing at least 1 more Light Shot per minute in a worst-case scenario, which means more TP gain overall, and more damage.

I think that using BRs would push Crab Bow +3 ahead by a not-insignificant margin, but other than that, they are very close in real-world situations.

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Originally Posted by Richardd

There's nothing wrong with the parse, all the information is pulled directly from XIV Log Parser when the testing was done. The only thing that was left out were the number of evades calculated into the total number of shots in 90 second periods.

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Yes, the totals above the parses are incorrectly calculated

Ignoring misses, evades and crits. (average damage, misses and crits are too random)
VB avg 206.7 per shot 59dps
CB+3 avg 233.4 per shot 58dps

So purely on shooting from the small example, the 2 bows are 1dps difference, and in favor of the verdant

At these dps numbers I'd be curious as to the TP gain, if any significant amount is gained solely from adding an extra shot but doing the same total damage. If yes, then verdant may actually be the better bow, if not then I would say the crab bow would when out on weapon skill damage.
Though it would also be interesting to see a parse of 4 archers light shotting the ogre to death, 2 with cb+3 and 2 with vb.

I wish the verdant hora had a shorter delay too QQ, Jade hora ftw

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Ignoring misses, evades and crits.

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That seems like a bad practice.

If you want an accurate comparison of the weapons we need more tests and not simply exclude bits of data.

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Originally Posted by hotah

That seems like a bad practice.

If you want an accurate comparison of the weapons we need more tests and not simply exclude bits of data.

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Randomized data such as that can be excluded. Evades, misses and crits can swing both ways between the two weapons.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Randomized data such as that can be excluded. Evades, misses and crits can swing both ways between the two weapons.

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Agreed. If your goal is to simple answer "what is the difference in non-crit light shot damage between CB+3 and Verdant", then the parse results are ample. This does not necessarily show which bow is actually "better" though. You're basically comparing 2 bows they everyone admits should have very close performance, so things like the accuracy and the critical hit rate will likely be important factors in judging which is better. It also excludes WS damage.

Ultimately this may come down to ARC play-style I think. If you go the no-BR spam method, then Verdant has a higher probability of coming out on top; but if you do a BR route similar to Akuun's there is a higher probability CB+3 will be superior.

The "gold standard" for seeing which is better is rather tedious. It requires either 2 ARC equally geared outside of the bow, with as close play-styles as possible, to repeatedly run the same "target" for a large sample size. Alternative you could have 1 player with both bows run by himself for a large sample size on both bows individually. Given the massive stat change overhauls coming soon, I think doing either of these is pretty unappealing, though it would be interesting if someone actually did it.