Accuracy healer new gear?

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

It's not a question of can or can't... it's a question that it's all balance. If you're DPSing, you're not healing. that means ppl are not being topped off so you can do your awesome 100~150 DPS.

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I would rather do 100-150 dps any day over having people unnecessarily being topped off. Make your heals count. Excess healing is probably the most superfluous thing you can do in this game.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

It's not a question of can or can't... it's a question that it's all balance. If you're DPSing, you're not healing. that means ppl are not being topped off so you can do your awesome 100~150 DPS.

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I see. We have very different objectives as a healer, then.

I see my job as to keep people standing and with HP safely above incoming AoE damage. I don't see the need to keep everyone topped off at 100% w/ Stoneskin all the time. Over long fights, that 100-150 DPS adds up.

But again, that's more with SCH and not WHM.

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Originally Posted by Odett

I would rather do 100-150 dps any day over having people unnecessarily being topped off. Make your heals count. Excess healing is probably the most superfluous thing you can do in this game.

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Then some guy DPS (or the other healer) falls into a trap or something unexpected happens and that guy, who could come out of it alive, now is dead. And to get him up and running will take like 1.5k MP. Not to mention the HUGE GROUP DPS drop cuz the guy will need to rebuff and pick up the dmg, the weakness debuff, aside from the time taken to rez him. Nice going.

"Ah," you will say. "if some noob took avoidable damage it's his fault".

Typical of individualist, elitist raiders, planning fights with a flawless execution in mind, and then telling people off when they fail the slightest. The type of mentality not fit to a healer IMHO. You think about the GROUP, not the individual performance. You are a SUPPORT role. Now, given the style of the fights on FFXIV, which healer is gives more support to the group? the one that widens the margin of error of the entire fight, or the one who does marginal DPS?

I dunno about you guys, but I rather be / have a healer in my group who can turn failures into successes than one who simply "puts out moar deeps". But what do I know, right?

IIRC, ACC was added to healer gear for hunts. Elite Marks require a higher ACC cap than regular enemies and SE decided to give healers some ACC so they could solo them (especially the B ranks which are now and originally were meant to be solo'd). That's why the new gear has no substantial increase in ACC; Mark acc reqs are still the same.

Basically SE is only going to assist with open-world content. If you're so adamant about DPSing in Coil then meld some accessories with ACC and upgrade your relic with it.

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Originally Posted by Velox

IIRC, ACC was added to healer gear for hunts. Elite Marks require a higher ACC cap than regular enemies and SE decided to give healers some ACC so they could solo them (especially the B ranks which are now and originally were meant to be solo'd). That's why the new gear has no substantial increase in ACC; Mark acc reqs are still the same.

Basically SE is only going to assist with open-world content. If you're so adamant about DPSing in Coil then meld some accessories with ACC and upgrade your relic with it.

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That's a point too... if you value DPSing in coil so much why don't you meld some i110 craftable gear? your priorities are pretty clear and you really shouldn't mind losing a little Mind attribute to enhance accuracy...

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Then some guy falls into a trap or something unexpected happens and that guys, who could come out of it alive, now is dead. And to get him up and running will take like 1.5k MP. Nice going.

"Ah," you will say. "if some noob took avoidable damage it's his fault".

Typical of individualist, elitist raiders. The type of mentality not fot to a healer. You think about the GROUP, not the individual performance. You are a SUPPORT role. Now, given the style of the fights on FFXIV, which healer is gives more support to the group? the one that widens the margin of error of the entire fight, or the one who does marginal DPS?

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The kind who contributes more to a group by DPSing instead of dishing out excess heals. It takes infinitely more skill to keep people above the HP threshold necessary for them not to die than to always have everyone topped off. The whole challenge of playing WHM is knowing when NOT to heal. FYI, DPSing and killing something faster can be its own form of mitigation.

Also, do you not think that DPS reduces the margin of error? A healer DPSing can very well mean the difference in the passing of a DPS race and a wipe, so again, your question is largely misleading. And before you or anyone else brings up the "if a healer needed to DPS, then there's something wrong with the damage dealers and they're carrying the group" argument, I hope you realize that you are doing the same exact thing, but in terms of healing (keeping everyone topped off because they're apparently unaware of avoiding damage as well as activating their defensive cooldowns). But yeah, you're right, me deciding to help out the group during a DPS race is "typical of individualist elitist raiders", and not thinking about the group at all. That is where our playstyles clearly differ. I do not see myself as the baby-sitter of the group.

The question here is, HOW MUCH of a difference can healer DPS actually do in a fight, in practical terms?

If the healer DPS was what made the group pass a burning phase, then they were JUST BARELY getting it, and that needs a real sweet spot to get right. almost ALL of the times your DPS will either be irrelevant (group would have gotten past it even without your help) or useless (your DPS won't be enough to make them pass). Not to mention that MP you're wasting could be used in a heal that might just save a wipe.

And I'm not even getting into the issue of the precious seconds lost in the stance dance which could mean life or death to a group member if you leave such a little threshold for damage. Don't forget that FFXIV is not World of Warcraft; Fights here are much more focused into surviving mechanics than in DPS burning.

Now, how many seconds you think that your little spikes of damage will cut off the fight as a whole? 5? 6? Again, this will only make a difference between a wipe and a clear if your group was BARELY MAKING it, which won't be the case in the vast majority of times. And in those cases, I guarantee that the extra MP saved from not DPSing would be of much more use.

Just throwing this out there, but if you want to DPS go ahead and DPS, I'm not against that at all.
That being said, when SE creates these fights (such as coil), they balance them so that any DPS-check mechanic can be passed by 4 DPS + tank/off-tank wearing the average iLevel gear for that instance. SE does not create fights and balance them to where the healer(s) absolutely need to DPS 100%. Basically what this means is that, if you can't pass a DPS check without healer DPS input, either
A. your DPS are overall undergeared for the encounter and/or
B. one or more of your DPS are terrible and needs to improve or be replaced

As I said before, I'm not against a healer DPSing. I'm just pointing this out for the people who keep blabbering on about, "OMG we can't do it, we need our healer's DPS." You should NEVER, ever, ever need a healer to DPS on any fight in this game, as every single fight is balanced to be beatable without it. If a healer needs to DPS to pass a mechanic, your party is bad. If your healer WANTS to DPS because there's downtime, that's fine.

Just to make it clear, while I just consider it an unwelcome change of priorities and I'd not do it or condone the attitude in a group that I lead, I'm not 100% AGAINST it.

If it fits your playstyle, by all means do it. But I think it's utterly wrong to:
A) Expect SE to conform to your playstyle and introduce changes in the itemization of the class to priorize that, creating a forum post to express that concern
B) Spew around that healers who DPS are superior healers, or that healer's who don't DPS are bad.

If you want to be a hybrid Healer/DPS there's nothing utterly wrong with that. Some groups might actually do well with it. But then, I don't think there's anything bad in having to adapt your gear in detriment of heal potency to make you a viable DPSer. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

It's not a question of can or can't... it's a question that it's all balance. If you're DPSing, you're not healing. that means ppl are not being topped off so you can do your awesome 100~150 DPS.

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That extra 100-150 DPS can make all the difference in pushing phases/beating enrage timers. Fey illu Adlo+stoneskin on tank WHM regen also, switch to cleric SC shadowflare, dots. Rinse, repeat every lull in spike damage. I can only say upto turn 11. All spike damage is predictable, outside of players not avoiding avoidable damage.

Albeit, that knowledge of when to stance dance comes after learning each phase, learning when the big hits are coming and when the lulls are to allow some extra damage.

lol. are you people bickering about healers should dps, you're a bad healer if u don't again?

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

lol. are you people bickering about healers should dps, you're a bad healer if u don't again?

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Appears to be that way, which is silly. As has been said in this thread before, if your healers have to DPS for you to get past an enrage timer or to survive a fight, your DPS sucks and needs to be replaced, end of story.

For those who don't know, Cleric Stance is on a 5-second cooldown, which can be a pretty huge chunk of time for fights as early as T5.

The philosophies in this thread:

1.) A few hundred damage is essential to some fights. But a few hundred healing is not.

2.1) A few hundred damage is essential to some fights. But a few hundred MP is not.
2.2) A few hundred MP must not be essential, because nobody could ever die in these fights, costing an expensive Raise.
2.3) Fights must be easy, since nobody dies and nobody needs healed.

I don't know what class you guys are playing, but as a WHM, I can barely solo a FATE boss without running out of MP, and that's only healing myself through Regen. So no, keep your Aero II and Aero, I'm going to make sure that we don't die later in the fight when I'm starving for MP and the BRD can't play Ballad because we have to push a DPS check. Hell, maybe I'll help you on that check, if it's not healing-intensive (Moogle Memento yes, Asclepius no).

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Appears to be that way, which is silly. As has been said in this thread before, if your healers have to DPS for you to get past an enrage timer or to survive a fight, your DPS sucks and needs to be replaced, end of story.

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Or you are top %, doing endgame content with good healers. But I'm sure you'll get around to clearing when you are massively overgeared for the fights while your healers twiddle their thumbs.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

The question here is, HOW MUCH of a difference can healer DPS actually do in a fight, in practical terms?

If the healer DPS was what made the group pass a burning phase, then they were JUST BARELY getting it, and that needs a real sweet spot to get right. almost ALL of the times your DPS will either be irrelevant (group would have gotten past it even without your help) or useless (your DPS won't be enough to make them pass). Not to mention that MP you're wasting could be used in a heal that might just save a wipe.

And I'm not even getting into the issue of the precious seconds lost in the stance dance which could mean life or death to a group member if you leave such a little threshold for damage. Don't forget that FFXIV is not World of Warcraft; Fights here are much more focused into surviving mechanics than in DPS burning.

Now, how many seconds you think that your little spikes of damage will cut off the fight as a whole? 5? 6? Again, this will only make a difference between a wipe and a clear if your group was BARELY MAKING it, which won't be the case in the vast majority of times. And in those cases, I guarantee that the extra MP saved from not DPSing would be of much more use.

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Just to give you an idea of how thigh DPS checks are when you are at the limit iLvl for clearing, we have everyone use freaking Poison Pots on top of STR/DEX/INT pots for every pull. Poison Pots.

Also, it's ironic you speak of MP as if DPSing wasn't an alternative to saving MP. Have you done T11? There are 2 ways of handling the Add->Boss transition. One of them is LBing the last add while the WHM stoneskins everyone that is not a Tank. The second is to burn the last add as fast as possible and Tank LB the big hit. Do you know which one is better for MP management? Hint: It's the one where the WHM doesn't spend 2400 MP on stoneskin.

Wait, now you are talking about a SPECIFIC burn. Situationals gonna be situational. I'm not at all against a healer DPSing in specific times of specific fights.
But what's being advocated here is another thing entirely - That the entire itemization of healers be reviewed so they can be more viable DPSses, which implies Healers should be DPSing in a somewhat constant manner.

Now that's when things get poopy.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Wait, now you are talking about a SPECIFIC burn. Situationals gonna be situational. I'm not at all against a healer DPSing in specific times of specific fights.
But what's being advocated here is another thing entirely - That the entire itemization of healers be reviewed so they can be more viable DPSses, which implies Healers should be DPSing in a somewhat constant manner.

Now that's when things get poopy.

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Our sch is accuracy capped for turn 13.

If your's isn't dpsing (with or without accuracy cap) it till takes you weeks if not months of gear to make up for it.

It is a about optimizing your team wherever you can. (STR gear on warrior for another example),(Monk for dragon kick another example)
It would be like DPS sitting in fire going, well the healers can heal me through it, and my job is to dps not reduce healing so I am not moving.

Refer to my second last email for the addressing of that point:

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

The question here is, HOW MUCH of a difference can healer DPS actually do in a fight, in practical terms?

If the healer DPS was what made the group pass a burning phase, then they were JUST BARELY getting it, and that needs a real sweet spot to get right. almost ALL of the times your DPS will either be irrelevant (group would have gotten past it even without your help) or useless (your DPS won't be enough to make them pass). Not to mention that MP you're wasting could be used in a heal that might just save a wipe.

And I'm not even getting into the issue of the precious seconds lost in the stance dance which could mean life or death to a group member if you leave such a little threshold for damage. Don't forget that FFXIV is not World of Warcraft; Fights here are much more focused into surviving mechanics than in DPS burning.

Now, how many seconds you think that your little spikes of damage will cut off the fight as a whole? 5? 6? Again, this will only make a difference between a wipe and a clear if your group was BARELY MAKING it, which won't be the case in the vast majority of times. And in those cases, I guarantee that the extra MP saved from not DPSing would be of much more use.

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Your SCH is healing less because of that trade-off. I won't say that sucks, but I also won't say that's NEEDED and if you don't do it you suck.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Appears to be that way, which is silly. As has been said in this thread before, if your healers have to DPS for you to get past an enrage timer or to survive a fight, your DPS sucks and needs to be replaced, end of story.

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1-If your BRD needs to use Foe Requiem for you to get past an enrage timer or survive a fight, your DPS is bad and needs to be replaced.
2-If your offtank needs to otpimize his damage for you to get past an enrage timer or survive a fight, your DPS is bad and needs to be replaced.
3-If your SCH needs to use Selene for you to get past an enrage timer or survive a fight, your DPS is bad and needs to be replaced.
4-If your team needs to use poison potions for you to get past an enrage timer or survive a fight, your DPS is bad and needs to be replaced.
5-If your healer need to DPS for you to get past an enrage timer or survive a fight, your DPS is bad and needs to be replaced.

Or you can do all the above and not be a casual.

I, too, would like healers to have more ACC. I've seen a lot of threads like this lately, maybe the devs will reply to one sometime. *crosses fingers* :D Even if they don't ever plan on giving us much more acc, it'd be cool to know their thoughts on this subject.

For anyone saying that healers have enough to do in final coil and shouldn't DPS... T10 and T11 are complete jokes. There are a lot of gaps were there's very little damage going out, so healers can cleric stance dance. It might not seem like it at the start, but once you memorize the entire fight you'll see them. I haven't beaten T12 or T13 so I don't really have the right to comment on those yet.